X-ray advised re: disunited canter

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Heathy82

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Hi All, Would like some advice for those with similar experience please. My horse is 8yr old ex racer. Came off the track almost 2 years ago. Have had issues with disunited canter on right rein since I can remember. Improved with work and topline development. Was going really nicely last Summer, completely stopped disuniting under saddle and would only go disunited on lunge if rushing/tearing around having a loon. As soon as pessoa or side reins on, canter fine.

Anyway, been on off lame on right fore for past week so called vet last week and hoof ulcer found. Whilst vet out I took the opportunity and asked him to look over right hind as recently disuniting increasing on lunge. Vet flexioned both hinds. Fine. Said horse is 100% sound. Popped him on lunge and bingo, disunited immediately tearing around the school (he's been in most of last month due to weather and mud fever!) Vet checked his back. Horse didn't react at all. Now vet asking to x-ray to look for KS. Have booked x-ray in for Friday.

Horse otherwise seems fine. Works nicely, in an outline, happy to take a contact, jumping well etc etc He's insured so not worried about £££ as such, but wondering why vet wants x-ray when aside from disuniting the horse is generally well and not showing signs of back pain? He has regular sports massages and therapist has never found any issues along the back? Just tightness through the hamstrings. Am I opening a can or worms?
 
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^^^ Agree. Problems with correct canter can be gut discomfort, supremely common in ex racers. Not necessarily gastric, but the caecum is on the right hand side and if there's discomfort there it can cause soreness which the horse tries to avoid if possible sometimes by not striking off correctly. Canter issues associated with gut discomfort are more commonly traced back to discomfort on the right side. How is he if you prod him around his flanks and under his barrell?

Would be careful with pursuing KS diagnosis: on the one hand, quick and easy to see on xray and relatively cheap, but on the other hand, a lot of horses who x ray for KS have no actual symptoms from it, so seeing it would not necessarily answer your question. Danger is that with 'just' the disuniting in canter, you could be opening yourself to a myriad of diagnostic processes as can be caused by lots of things. But if you search for threads on 'disunited canter' you'll find quite a few examples of people who've found it to be a symptom of different issues, which may be helpful in seeing if there are also other helpful symptoms you hadn't twigged yet which help you narrow down the possibles useful to investigate further?
 
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Thanks Philamena, thats exactly why I am now having doubts about pursuing the x-ray route just yet. Horse has always been 'girthy' in that he will pull faces when tightening girth and also when doing up the chest straps on his rug. That's pretty much it in terms of symptoms. But I should mention that he pulls faces at me when I feed him and also sometimes just raising my hand to stroke his face. Even vet said that this can just be a bad habit from being a racehorse and handled 'roughly'.
 
Well - I must say I am surprised by this - but I am fascinated by new thinking and information. I have never heard of a disunited canter being put down to ulcers before. I am really NOT being argumentative, but very curious about the thinking behind this.

Is it possible to explain to me how the two connect. That is, alteration in canter movement and stomach ulcers.
 
In my experience, horses that become disunited in canter regularly, invariably have sacroilliac joint problems. It is possible to have the SI's nerve blocked, and if that improves the situation it is possible to treat the joint in the same way that you would inject hocks etc.
 
Mine didn't have any of the "typical" signs, apart from girthiness. She looked brilliant, erred on the side of porky, fab coat, not 'stressy', ate well, etc etc.

It was the girthiness which led us to getting her scoped, and sure enough there they were. Sorting the stomach was quite simple (if expensive!) but getting her hind gut comfortable has been taking a bit more work. Ulcers in the stomach are not the same thing as discomfort further back in the gut. They often occur at the same time, but the most effective treatment for the stomach (Omeprazole) doesn't help issues in the gut.

Here's a really useful video for checking for stomach / gastric ulcer discomfort. As the gut is huge and fills the barrell, testing for discomfort here doesn't really need pressure points, just see where he's reactive around the barrell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr05hMmLCY4
 
MrsJingle said:
Seriously? Based on what? The description by OP? Please clarify your remark as I am intrigued why you would think this.
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Based on the disunited canter and that its an ex-racer.

http://www.drkerryridgway.com/articles/article-ulcers.php this is a very good article, mentions cross cantering (which is what we call disunited cantering)
Due to the consistent muscle pain patterns found in ulcer cases, the horse will cross canter or refuse to pick up a specific lead. Often these horses do not come through in the hindquarters (especially the right hind). They are often restricted in the shoulders due to a consistently found neuromuscular pattern that tightens the fascia over the muscles of the shoulder and wither pocket area. This myofascial contracture limits the ability of the muscles to lengthen and shorten appropriately. The result is pain and develops into a consistent pattern of vertebral dysfunction (chiropractic problem) in the wither vertebrae. Other consistent findings include chiropractic issues in the thoraco-lumbar area (the transition zone from chest vertebrae to the loin vertebrae). There is also a consistent pattern of pain and dysfunction where the lumbar vertebra joints articulate with the sacrum. Vertebral joint dysfunction is defined, basically, as an inability of joints to move through their full range of motion. Loss of joint motion results in pain and inability to use the back well.
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Thanks Erin. Very interesting indeed! Vet did mention ulcers briefly but disregarded them as horse has good weight (for a TB mid winter) and condition. Although this would suggest that good weight does not necessarily mean ulcers do not exist. I will investigate further
 
Heathy82 said:
Thanks Erin. Very interesting indeed! Vet did mention ulcers briefly but disregarded them as horse has good weight (for a TB mid winter) and condition. Although this would suggest that good weight does not necessarily mean ulcers do not exist. I will investigate further
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No, the idea that they need to look thin and in poor nick seems to date back to when we knew nothing of how prevalent they are, and they were only diagnosed in horses that looked horrific and were therefore investigated and everyone else just went undiagnosed! The vet who diagnosed mine (top ulcer geek vet) said they will "count in" poor condition as a symptom, but in more cases than not the horse looks fine. More commonly being picked up in behaviour, girthiness and muscular or movement problems caused by holding themselves against the discomfort these days. Good luck, let us know how you get on!
 
Heathy82 said:
Thanks Erin. Very interesting indeed! Vet did mention ulcers briefly but disregarded them as horse has good weight (for a TB mid winter) and condition. Although this would suggest that good weight does not necessarily mean ulcers do not exist. I will investigate further
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My mare has just been diagnosed with grade 3-4 (out of 4) ulcers. Her weight is good (and she's put on a few kg in the last few months) she has a lovely soft, shiney coat.
Her 'main' symptoms where mostly under-saddle issues.

A good thing to try is to feed 8-10 Rennies tablets 20mins before riding - this turned my girl back to her normal self (temporarily)
 
Wanted to follow up on this as I hate it when I read a post and then don't find out the outcome.

Anyway, for various reasons the x-ray was postponed. Tried a few other things first. But he didn't get any better. In fact, he became difficult under saddle, bucking and bolting with me in canter last weekend so decided enough was enough and needed vet to give answers.

Had his back x-rayed yesterday. It was clear. Definitely no kissing spines! Phew. He stayed in over night so that they could scope for ulcers today and do further investigations. He has fairly severe gastric ulcers :( Poor lad. They also x-rayed his hocks and found mild arthritis in both. Prognosis is good. He needs a month off exercise. As much turnout as possible. Preferably 24/7. This is not going to happen where I am now. Our fields are atrocious, and hes been stuck in most days since Xmas which the vet attributes to this sudden deterioration in recent months. Box rest is not good for ulcers or arthritis! I feel relieved to know whats wrong now, and can sort a plan of action to get him better and maintain him. Just thought I would update you all so that you can see where this story ended. ;)
 
A disunited canter can be caused by a huge number of things such as:

Hock problems like arthritis, or suspensory at hock or fetlock.

Kissing spines

Sacroilliac dysfunction

Forelimb lameness (that may be bi lateral)

And yes, ulcers have been known to cause the problem.

Recently, a WB at my yard displayed a disunited canter, and bunny hopping. skipping and changing behind as his main symptom. He was found to have arthritis of the neck, kissing spines, sacroilliac dysfunction and proximinal suspensory desmitis. Poor fellow. He had been working at medium level dressage and had been out and winning up until the onset of symptoms. I doubt whether your horse will have ALL of those things, but it needs investigating.

ETA: Just seen your update. Good luck with the treatment, and good news re the KS.
 
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Thanks for the update, I was very interested in this after the interesting link Erin put up. And it would seem that in your horse's case it almost certainly is the ulcers causing the disunited canter.

I really hope you boy is better very soon. Hopefully the weather might start to dry up and he can get more turn out for him. What is the vet giving him for the ulcers?
 
Thanks. He is having a month on GastroGuard and a rescope in 4 weeks. The vet said they are fairly significant. That might explain the recent bucking in canter and very grumpy attitude (he's always mildly grumpy!) Am sure the hocks issues have also contributed, seems they all have the same symptoms. At least I know where I am at now. I would obviously rather he be 100% but now I can move forwards without wondering what if all the time.
 
Heathy82 said:
Thanks. He is having a month on GastroGuard and a rescope in 4 weeks. The vet said they are fairly significant. That might explain the recent bucking in canter and very grumpy attitude (he's always mildly grumpy!) Am sure the hocks issues have also contributed, seems they all have the same symptoms. At least I know where I am at now. I would obviously rather he be 100% but now I can move forwards without wondering what if all the time.
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Make sure that you don't abruptly stop the gastroguard. This causes over production of stomach acid and a quick return of the ulcers. It is also advisable to feed a probiotic alongside and after treatment because omeprazole kills the good bacteria in the hindgut. You need to halve the dose of gastroguard after the first 28 days for a couple of weeks, then a further two weeks at a quarter dose.
 
Whatever the outcome, I do hope you get your horse sorted, but I have to say thank you to all the posters, I have found out something new and interesting today... would never have put gastric ulcers/discomfort down as a cause for disunited cancer... tres interesting, thank you :D
 
Will add some as my situation is bit similar, and may give you more ideas.

Mare became bit lethargic couple of weeks ago, in trot not tracking up, tense over loins, canter switching between disunited and not, almost cantering straight legged, looked uncomfortable. Same both reins.

Vet has said mild hind suspensory on off hind, leading to tightness in SI joint.

Physio only found soreness in near shoulder and just behind saddle on near side.

Now she did kick the stable high up so I suspect she did something then.

We're expecting her to be back to normal in couple of weeks.
 
Thanks for posting an update, you're right that so many don't which is a shame because it's really useful for people later searching for info.

Sorry to hear your boy has probs, but you're right: it's so much more reassuring to have a diagnosis you can get to work on.

Echo the advice above re weaning off the GG when you do come to move off it. I would also strongly suggest putting him on whichever supplements you plan to use for maintenance now, rather than waiting til you finish the GG. Definitely get on a "stress dosage" of a probiotic asap if not already, and as probiotics support the gut rather than the stomach, start whichever supplement for the stomach itself. The best ones aren't antacids (antacids have a useful short term effect but have been found over the longer term to encourage more acid production, so I'd only use them for short term support). Good supplements contain things which support a healthy stomach lining / mucus and the sooner you can get that happening the better :) Hopefully they also gave you advice re low-starch diet. I originally didn't think it made much diff to my girl, tbh, because I hadn't noticed a diff between when she was on medium levels of starch and higher levels of starch, but I changed my tune when I saw a definite difference after cutting it right back to very low levels- which I guess makes sense. It was too neat and simplistic to expect the symptoms and starch ratio to be completely linear.

Also worth having a physio / chiro / osteo check once ulcers cleared in case horsey has been getting himself knotted up holding himself against the stomach discomfort :)

I also only just now realised a couple of peeps had asked questions earlier in the thread which I hadn't seen... sorry, wasn't being rude, just a bit blind! :D
 
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