Xray pics - Hock spavins and reverse rotation of pedal bone

[Spookywood]

Hi all
Just had my mare diagnosed with hock spavins. While getting her x-rays done we got her feet done too. X-rays of her feet below. Her hinds are showing a slight reverse rotation of the pedal bone and her fronts off balance.. Any advice on the best way forward with these feet?

Right fore

Left fore

Right hind

Left hind

Hoping that the pics have worked!!

Thanks
SW

 

[samlf]

I'm definitely no expert, I'm sure someone far more knowledgeable will be along soon. I can definitely see the balance issues in the fronts, but I cannot for the life of me see the reverse rotation in the hinds? I'm probably just being stupid!

What has your vet recommended?
I believe the balance issues can be helped by going barefoot.

 

[Spookywood]

Thanks samlf. Looks like I've st the same pic twice as well!
Left hind

The pedal bones are very slightly below the horizontal and therefore not at the correct angle, like they have dropped at the back?

Vet has suggested wedge shoes on the hinds and more better balancing on the fronts by my farrier. The fronts look as though there is more weight going on the inside rather than evenly distributed?
I asked about taking her shoes off and he said it was a definite no and that she needed wedges on the back. I guess I'm just not convinced that special shoes is a fix to the pedal bone issue and we would just be left with needing the wedges permanently. Maybe this is not reversible??. Ive not had to deal with this issue before And keen to hear others experiences.

 

[cptrayes]

I have corrected what I believe were several instances of hind foot reverse pedal bone rotation by removing the shoes and working the horse appropriately to build digital cushion under the pedal bone which corrects the negative rotation.

I am currently in the middle of correcting a known front foot negative rotation, which is going well. This horse also has unbalanced fronts and hinds was impossible to keep sound in shoes even when shod to xrays with bars and wedges.

Many instances of negative pedal bone rotation in the hind feet seem, to me (with relatively limited experience) to be related to inability to deal with high carbohydrate diets. It is clear from your xrays that your horse has bullnosed hind feet. In my experience, horses with such bullnoses require the carbohydrates, especially sugars, in their feed to be reduced to a minimum. It will also take quite some time (around 6 months) for the rotation to be completely resolved.

You could do worse than to research barefoot diets and you will also find people on the phoenix horse forum very helpful and non-judgmental.

 

[samlf]

Yeah I agree about the fronts, they look collapsed medially.
Have you done any research into wedges/shoes vs barefoot rehab? A good place to start would be the rockleyfarm blog, or the phoenix horse forum.
Obviously it's very difficult to go against what your vet and farrier suggest, but as an owner you have to do what you think is right too, and make an informed decision either way

 

[ester]

why does the vet think wedges would help? for the spavins or the rotation? mine was absolutely against wedging my lad (reverse rotation in front) because although they might realign short term they wouldn't help with his heel height long term. Also why is shoes off a definite no? Mine was happy with it as long as I didn't underestimate having to be patient for a bit

do you have any pics of the actual feet for people to have a nosey at. I am sure that my lads reverse rotation was what caused the bull-nosed appearance to his front feet, since his shoes came off they are no longer bull-nosed and I am surmising (along with his soundness) that the pedal bones are now sitting in a better condition.

fwiw I went the bar shoes/injections route first but saw limited improvement.

eta I see CP got there before me with the bull-nosed ness!

 

[cptrayes]

Her fronts are very unbalanced and this would also correct itself with a barefoot approach, though your farrier and vet might be very unhappy with the shape of the feet she is likely to make for herself.

If you look at the blog from Rockleyfarm (.blogspot.com) you will see many examples of what I mean.

 

[Topaz Tiger]

Hi I'm currently 4 weeks into correcting negative rotation of the pedal bone on my mares front feet.
She was diagnosed at the RVC by Prof Smith and although happy for me to try it without shoes, he said with shoes would be quicker and the aim is to get her right or the 2013 event season.
As she had plenty of sole, they were able to change the shape through retrimming and using a wide web shoe set well back.
4 weeks later and there is a definite improvement and I'm able to start riding her.
Her feet looked fine from the outside, I'm told it's usually a conformation issue and infact looking back as the X-rays when I brought her 5 years ago, the situation was the same if not worse.
I have to say that now I would always start shoeing a new horse using X-rays with further X-rays to monitor the situation 2-3 times a year.

 

[Spookywood]

Thanks for replying. Lots of research to be done and will take a look at the Phoenix forum.

She is out 24/7 so her diet is mainly been grass with them getting adlib haylage now in the field. She also gets 2 handfuls of Pure feeds pure fibre, Naf pro hoof supplement ( was farriers formula) and a joint supplement am and pm. She is a good doer and doesn't need much hard feed, hold her weight a little too well. Should I be looking at changing this?

Vet said that we needed to get the pedal bone back at the correct angle hence the wedges, but like you said I can't see how this would help long term. She has incredibly small feet which are boxy and upright. I will get some photos tomorrow when I go up to the yard.

Really keen to do what's best for my girl and more than happy to take the long route rather than the quick fix that will just cause more problems down the line. I guess it's difficult to know what's right when the vet was adamant that taking her hind shoes (or all) when I suggested it was the worst thing I could do

 

[Keenjean]

My horse has this exact condition, reverse rotation in front feet (and we're also dealing with a low set pedal bone) and arthritis in hocks behind. This was all discovered with bone scans, MRI and X-ray (and a large bill!) I have avoided wedges as I felt (and the referring vet agreed) that they would not be beneficial long term. My mare has had gel pads put on and did a months box rest to allow for the feet to recover from any concussive effects. She has been allowed to grow much more foot to counteract the concussive effects. Her foot balance was fairly good anyway but my farrier is now very very careful to make sure it is completely correct in order to assist the pedal bone to prevent further rotation. Her feet have not been trimmed at all whilst being shod for the last 2 sets to enable to larger hooves to occur and her sole is never parred anyway. She is now sound , pad free and we are starting to try and help with the hind legs now. We tackled one bit at a time and sorted front feet first as, quite rightly, the bets said it was pointless medicating the arthritis whilst she was still having to compensate for her front feet. Good luck, I can truly understand just how awful this is! P.s barefoot was not an option I considered but I'll be interested to see how you get on if you do it but I whole heartedly agree on avoiding wedges at all costs and so did my farrier.

 

[Oberon]

Thanks for replying. Lots of research to be done and will take a look at the Phoenix forum.

She is out 24/7 so her diet is mainly been grass with them getting adlib haylage now in the field. She also gets 2 handfuls of Pure feeds pure fibre, Naf pro hoof supplement ( was farriers formula) and a joint supplement am and pm. She is a good doer and doesn't need much hard feed, hold her weight a little too well. Should I be looking at changing this?

Vet said that we needed to get the pedal bone back at the correct angle hence the wedges, but like you said I can't see how this would help long term. She has incredibly small feet which are boxy and upright. I will get some photos tomorrow when I go up to the yard.

Really keen to do what's best for my girl and more than happy to take the long route rather than the quick fix that will just cause more problems down the line. I guess it's difficult to know what's right when the vet was adamant that taking her hind shoes (or all) when I suggested it was the worst thing I could do

Contact Moorman on the Phoenix forum - he's a remedial farrier of extensive experience.

He has lots to say about wedges.....

 

[cptrayes]

She was diagnosed at the RVC by Prof Smith and although happy for me to try it without shoes, he said with shoes would be quicker

I wonder what experience he has to say that?

I'm told it's usually a conformation issue and infact looking back as the X-rays when I brought her 5 years ago, the situation was the same if not worse.

I'm not getting at you TT, but at your advisors. Strangely enough, this "conformation issue" is one which goes away when you work a horse without shoes on.

 

[Topaz Tiger]

Grrrr....... The OP asked for other peoples experiences, I responded, with a so far successful outcome, without having to do anything wacky or radical and once again it has to be picked apart by the barefoot brigade....
I didn't asked Prof Smith why it would be quicker doing it with shoes but as he's a world renowned orthopaedic vet I trusted his opinion, however perhaps you cptrayes know better?
Perhaps he felt he didn't want to cloud the issue of her potentially returning to soundness, with her also having to adjust to going barefoot at the same time..... Sounds sensible to me.....
As for the conformation issue, it has also gone away with correct trimming and shoeing. Perhaps a unshod horse can work round it's conformation issues by trimming its feet to what feels comfortable.....
See you say tomato, I say tomatoe.....

 

[Keenjean]

Topaz I'm with you on this one. There is no way I would have put my mare through barefoot transitioning with the pedal bone situation. She was uncomfortable on her feet already, I can't see how a well trimmed and shod foot is detrimental in this situation where the feet are compromised. Barefoot transitioning takes ages to get the diet through to the feet and to grow new feet. Surely it's key to get the horse comfortable first and foremost. I'll still be intersected to see how the results differ though if the op does go barefoot, particularly if soundness is achieved and how long it takes.

 

[ester]

I think this is where other horses are different though, I did at times wonder if i should have gone the pads route but through personal choice decided not to.

Mine also wasn't uncomfortable on his feet, just lame, (both feet x-rayed the same only lame on one) his shoeing hadn't been amazing previously and his heels had become under run, (and they do seem inclined that way even with shoes off). Shoeing with x-rays and bar shoes improved the external appearance of his feet no end, but he was still lame so we were really at the point that he was retiring, for which he would have had his shoes off anyway.

He after 6 weeks of wall wearing he was a little footy for about 6 weeks and worked in boots which was no trouble at all. He did have very flat feet, likely a consequence of the pedal bones but does now have concavity.

He was proper sore for one day.. having spent the previous night galloping about on hard ground and spent this on his patch of pea gravel

TT I'd be interested to see how your girl was trimmed in comparison to mine, you say she had plenty of sole and so could change the shape through trimming, was this of the sole? Wasn't sure if I read that right. Has she been re-xrayed yet or is that for the future? It will be interesting to know how she gets on long term having taken a different route .

pixie the reason I choose barefoot was because I wanted F sound and comfortable long term and as long as he didn't fine transitioning too complicated I decided that shoes off was likely the best way to achieve it, I thought we could pad but wasn't convinced long term and as he has given me the best 7 years of fun I didn't mind having a summer of light work while we tried it.

With regards to time lines I have been very patient/slow as have been soo keen not to break him again, he probably could have moved on quicker. He had his shoes off in March and was walking out from word go, work very slowly increased and he slowly improved and I could have probably moved a lot quicker right now he feels fab and we are competing next weekend although his growth line/new hoof has still not quite hit the floor.

 

[Fimbacob]

I dont want to upset the apple cart here, but did the vet say that the front hooves are unbalanced, or is that your own assessment from the x ray? I am just wondering as the xray does not look as though they have been taken from directly at the back of the leg but slightly from a medial angle. I am no expert, but thats how they looked to me, so it might give the impression of inbalance more so than what there actually is.

 

[Wagtail]

I'm no expert but looking at those hinds, yes by measuring the angle of P3 in relationship to the ground, there is reverse rotation. However, looking at the line from the small pastern bone, there is positive rotation. P3 is exactly in line with the hoof wall also, and so I can't see how the situation can be changed. I'm sure some knowledgable people will be long to shed light on this. If they haven't already. I haven't read the other comments yet.

 

[Topaz Tiger]

Hi ester, topaz had loads of sole, as she had been wearing equipak all summer, so they kept the heel longer and trimmed away the sole, increasing the amount as the neared her toe, effectively putting her on more on tip toes. They then fitted a wide web shoe, with plenty of length at the back to help her heels, pulling back the break over point as well.
She was examined and re x-rayed last week. She is definitely sounder and the pedal bone angle has improved. They said they would normally expect to see this amount of improvement by the third shoeing... She was reshod, she hadn't grown much more heel, but a little bit more toe was able to be taken off.
So I've started riding her again, just in walk and avoiding roads at the moment incase she starts jogging and jars her feet, but she feels good and my osteopath also feels she is more up in her shoulder than she has been in the past.
So fingers crossed.... She's been footy on hard ground for the last 2 summers and it would be wonderful if this could alleviate things a bit.

 

[cptrayes]

Grrrr....... The OP asked for other peoples experiences, I responded, with a so far successful outcome, without having to do anything wacky or radical and once again it has to be picked apart by the barefoot brigade....
I didn't asked Prof Smith why it would be quicker doing it with shoes but as he's a world renowned orthopaedic vet I trusted his opinion, however perhaps you cptrayes know better?

Well, since I have now been party to the rehab of three horses that top class vets could not bring sound, one of them written off either by Prof Smith himself or one of his Leahurst colleagues, then clearly I am doing something that they don't seem to be aware of. I'm sorry it annoyed you, but it didn't annoy you half as much as it annoys me hearing of horses either shot or pensioned off because vets don't think horses can build teh right feet for themselves.

As for the conformation issue, it has also gone away with correct trimming and shoeing. .

Then it wasn't a conformation issue, was it? It was a shoeing and trimming issue.



I am glad that you found a solution for your mare. I am sorry for the many, many horses and owners which are not helped by conventional or remedial shoeing, including the one I am dealing with right now with negative coffin bone angle.

I do think you over-reacted, by the way. I only asked what experience Prof Smith has to compare a barefoot rehab righting coffin bone angles with a shoeing approach righting coffin bone angles. As far as I am aware there is no evidence whatsoever which would compare the two on which he could possibly make that judgement.

Your later post describing how the coffin bone angle has been put right by cutting off toe and toe sole callous and by keeping the heels high is very interesting. In fact, your horse's negative rotation has been fixed only in the most cosmetic fashion, and the only way it will be able to be kept there is with year round shoeing. It's akin to shoeing with wedges, only using the foot to create the wedge, and there are many vets and farriers against the use of wedges. To me, that is not a cure, it's a bandage, sorry

I hope it continues to work for your horse. If not, and you turn to barefoot as many people do in desperation, then we'll all be happy to help you try and make it work.

 

[Topaz Tiger]

Out of interest cptrayes, how would you correct the negative angle of the pedal bone.....? surely it has to be by trimming, either by the horse itself finding a comfortable way to walk or the farrier doing it for them....?

 

[Topaz Tiger]

For the record I have nothing against horses going without shoes, infact I'm very interested in it, what I find hard however is that we are so often told it is a cure for every ailment known to horses....... which I'm sorry I feel detracts from its many obvious benefits.....

 

[frannieuk]

My mare had 5degrees reverse rotation in all 4 pedal bones, and my (very good remedial) farrier was adamant that wedges were not good for her as it would throw the problem further up the leg. As she had plenty of sole and very good horn, he has gradually trimmed her shorter and adjusted the sole angle (in conjunction and agreement with the vet and x-rays) so that she now has a slight positive rotation that is almost correct. Touch wood, she has been sound for over a year now, and whilst her feet appear to be short and upright from the outside, they are correct on the insides.
My farrier has also been careful to look at the way she naturally grows hoof to balance herself and worked with this, as opposed to trying to make the feet look right.
I guess my advice would be to make sure you have a really good remedial farrier, who will work with your vet and agree the long term plan in light of the whole confirmation of your horse.

 

[mrussell]

May I offer up my experience of reverse angle pedal bones ?

I had a horse with spavins and RAPB (sorry being lazy). Rossdales failed to find a corrective shoeing answer (not for want of trying...they spent every last penny of NFU's £5 before telling me to shoot my horse). He was 11 then. 5/10th lame. And desperately unhappy,

He is now 20 and still going strong thanks to Cytek shoes.

Now you might think Im bonkers but when orthodox treatment no longer works and barefoot isnt an option (sorry CPT but not everyone can send to Rockleys or do the necessary reconditioning work), Cytek shoeing may be the answer.

OP, if you want to ask me about them, feel free to PM me.

 

[ester]

Out of interest cptrayes, how would you correct the negative angle of the pedal bone.....? surely it has to be by trimming, either by the horse itself finding a comfortable way to walk or the farrier doing it for them....?

Thanks for the description TT, that was really useful, its certainly interesting to know what others are doing for the same/similar issue although not sure how thick F's sole was, he also had a coffin joint DJD diagnosis (nerve blocked to joint) and so in some ways I wasn't just looking at changing the angles but helping the whole foot support itself.

So my take on the above is that Frank's pedal bone angle has likely been changed by getting him to use his feet more naturally which has increased the soft tissue at the back foot/digital cushion (maybe!?) which has helped support the pedal bone from behind and push it back up a bit at the back if that makes sense.

 

[thatsmygirl]

My horse has reverse rotation on all 4 pedal bones. In any shoes he's lame and was on box rest with bute. Everytime a farrier touched his feet he couldn't walk and the cloud over his head was pts. Ex racer with dreadful feet. As a last resort I came here and seeked advice from cptyrates and Oberon which was of course take shoes off which I done and my vet said she would back me up. It's been 12 weeks he's totally sound and back in work he has boots and pads for work but walks on concrete and the gravel track to the field fine. The advice via here has saved my lad and I'm very greatfull to those who have help.

 

[ester]

this is when his shoes came off (after 2 rounds of bar shoeing to increase heel height.. which from the outside did seem to make them look better than when we started)

this is a pic before trimming last weekend, you can see how the wall has grown straight (I was quite surprised tbh!)

 

[Topaz Tiger]

Thanks for the description TT, that was really useful, its certainly interesting to know what others are doing for the same/similar issue although not sure how thick F's sole was, he also had a coffin joint DJD diagnosis (nerve blocked to joint) and so in some ways I wasn't just looking at changing the angles but helping the whole foot support itself.

So my take on the above is that Frank's pedal bone angle has likely been changed by getting him to use his feet more naturally which has increased the soft tissue at the back foot/digital cushion (maybe!?) which has helped support the pedal bone from behind and push it back up a bit at the back if that makes sense.

ah now thats really interesting ester, will talk to my farrier and prof smith. I can imagine that undoubtable would be a better way forward long term.....

 

[ester]

I might not be technically right btw just my logical biological thoughts .

I'd love to re-xray but cannot justify the costs given that I have a sound pony! He is also notably moving quite differently to how had for some time previously so I suspect he was tolerating some discomfort for some time.

 

[AmyMay]

Working together, your vet and farrier will advise you on how to proceed.

 

[cptrayes]

Out of interest cptrayes, how would you correct the negative angle of the pedal bone.....? surely it has to be by trimming, either by the horse itself finding a comfortable way to walk or the farrier doing it for them....?

Not at all. Trimming would be the last thing you would do. What I am doing with the one I have now is progressive work on the right surfaces. He walked and walked and walked and now he is trotting. He does one day work, one day loosening him up on the lunge for 5 minutes and rest to allow him to consolidate the day before's work. He is now trotting, and if he is sound tomorrow he will start large circles this week and some canter soon after. Hi pattern of lameness so far suggests that he propably has collateral ligament and ddft damage, but only the negative coffin bone angle was diagnosed because there were no MRI scans done.

The result of the careful and continuous work is that his feet have been stimulated to produce digital cushion inside the foot and his pedal bone is rising on top of that increasing digital cushion. The collateral grooves have got hugely deeper, without the height of the hoof wall increasing at all. He is, quite simply, carrying his pedal bone higher inside the foot, especially at the back where the digital cushion is thickest.

I had a similar issue with my dressage youngster who arrived with bullnose feet behind, and another horse a couple of years ago with bullnose hinds. Wedges will provide an instant loosening of the tightness in the back caused by negative angle in the hind feet, so they can seem a miracle at first. But over time they tend to crush the heel even more, and the horse will often revert to being lame again, as my current rehab did.

The conundrum with these horses is often that they are not sound, but that they need "work" of some kind in order to build the foot to become sound. Taking the shoes off is not enough. My current rehab has not had shoes on for a year or more and he was still lame when brought back into work. At Rockley Farm the right work is achieved early on by turning the horses out in a group that keeps them moving, onto tracks with conformable surfaces that work the digital cushion. I don't have that luxury, so for me is walking in hand if necessary, and then under saddle, for miles and miles. Of course I am lucky enough to have the time to do that.