Yard owners taking the piss? really?

[Wagtail]

Below are my actual costs (excluding all feed, bedding, shoeing, dentist, worming etc) of running a yard for 7 horses. So these are the ACTUAL costs per horse of doing DIY only.

Maintenance of fencing, arena,paddocks, muck removal, skip hire etc £48.98 pm £11.30 pw
Communications, admin, £6.19 pm £1.43 pw
Rates £10.40 pm, £2.40 pw
Electric and electrical repairs £9.04 pm, £2.09 pw
Insurance £34.29 pm, £7.91 pw
water £5.05 pm, £1.16 pw
Other £3.77 pm, £0.87 pw
Total £117.73 pm, £27.17 pw

No wonder so many yards are out of business. People want to pay peanuts and expect the earth.

I don't do DIY because I couldn't afford to and want to make sure all horses are on the same routine and know they are all well cared for, but wanted to post these actual figures so people realised just how well off they were and why sometimes on DIY yards things may not always get done to the highest specification.

 

[Littlelegs]

Never owned a yard in my life, but right with you on the fact a few people have no idea what it costs to run one.

 

[Flame_]

I wouldn't imagine you could make money on a yard your size with two horses of your own tbh. The only people who make money on small set-ups like that tend to be professional riders by doing lots of dealing and teaching. Even then, I'd expect they'd want to do things on a bit of a bigger scale to make any kind of money.

 

[meesha]

sticking fingers in ears and humming whilst trying to look away !!!!!!

- I have my own place only 4 acres (2 horses) and dont add up the cost - much too scary !!!
keep telling myself the land is investment haha, saves having to wonder about what to spend money on though - had muck removed yesterday £40 but trailer so small only removed half the pile ! bought teeny tiny harrow recently £140 !! mini ride on mower last year £500 ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I dont think I had any idea when I was a livery of what it all cost - you tend to think - oh they've already got all the tools and land doesnt cost much ! I now know better !!!!!

 

[Wagtail]

I wouldn't imagine you could make money on a yard your size with two horses of your own tbh. The only people who make money on small set-ups like that tend to be professional riders by doing lots of dealing and teaching. Even then, I'd expect they'd want to do things on a bit of a bigger scale to make any kind of money.

Costs go up per horse as more water, electric, waste, rates are worked out per stable and per square metre of arena, so still wouldn't make much money DIY.

 

[Wagtail]

mini ride on mower last year £500 ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Don't mention ride on mowers. Just spent £480 on having ours fixed and it went for all of 5 minutes. Now it needs another £150 of work doing!!

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Prices have not changed one bit round here in the past 20 years!

I was charging £25 pw, DIY - own paddocks or live with mine (owners choice!) and stable plus storage, other benefits etc - and that was in 1992. Similar pricing to other local yards.

Prices were still the same in 2002 - and local yards are STILL charging the same even now in 2012

It's far cheaper to not have 'paying guests'

Mind you, local boarding cattery is charging £12 per night for cat (mine is NOT going on holiday then this year!) this includes food - tho I suspect this is less food than a horse eats

 

[Wagtail]

Prices have not changed one bit round here in the past 20 years!

I was charging £25 pw, DIY - own paddocks or live with mine (owners choice!) and stable plus storage, other benefits etc - and that was in 1992. Similar pricing to other local yards.

Prices were still the same in 2002 - and local yards are STILL charging the same even now in 2012

It's far cheaper to not have 'paying guests'

Completely agree. The costs I have listed above include maintenance that is done to high standards and on time because it is a full livery yard. I quite understand why DIY yards are sometime lax in that area. There is just no money for it. My friend had to close her yard as she was making a loss charging DIY at £25 a week. The livery round the corner from her stopped doing DIY and changed to full and part livery only for the same reason.

 

[meesha]

put my border collie in kennels from Fri afternoon to Monday afternoon - cost just over £50! ok that was with food but the amount of space a bc takes up compared to a horse !!!!

B4 had my own place I was on diy livery - stable and grazing for £15 per week ! it was a farm though with no maintenance being done but even so ! cant believe he made any money !

 

[Ella19]

You need to come to the Surrey Hills Wagtail and set up here. Our grass livery is average for the area at £270pcm, that includes a field (only harrowed once a year, no ferterliser or other care) a sandschool that is currently locked for quarter of the year due to lack of adequate drainage and a bit of storage space in the tack room. Feed is in a "shed" with no windows and a leaking roof. But we pay for the excellent hacking and great people. I believe the rent is high and that is why prices are so high round here but I do gulp at my livery bill every month, cross the border to sussex and grass is £100pcm.

 

[PucciNPoni]

I'm a small business owner too - and while it's not horse related it is dog related - and I have to say that I can totally sympathise with this. People think I must rake it in, doing what I do. But if they understood the costs they'd be shocked. And it's the same for most small businesses, particularly when animals are involved.

 

[Wagtail]

You need to come to the Surrey Hills Wagtail and set up here. Our grass livery is average for the area at £270pcm, that includes a field (only harrowed once a year, no ferterliser or other care) a sandschool that is currently locked for quarter of the year due to lack of adequate drainage and a bit of storage space in the tack room. Feed is in a "shed" with no windows and a leaking roof. But we pay for the excellent hacking and great people. I believe the rent is high and that is why prices are so high round here but I do gulp at my livery bill every month, cross the border to sussex and grass is £100pcm.

Wow, that is expensive. Grass livery is actually the cheapest to provide because you avoid business rates if people are not using stables. The rates are charged per stable and per metre on arenas, but not on grass.

 

[AmyMay]

The yards I have been on have been wonderful. DIY, full or part livery - whichever is wanted. Even on DIY there was a routine that had to be adhered to to a certain extent. YO's very hands on, and all animals looked after to a very high standard.

My livery charges have barely changed in the last several years - the only thing that changes regularly is the cost of haylage (provided by the yard, but still more than reasonable).

I think done properly DIY is more profitable than full livery - but it's obviously the choice of the YO to which services they offer.

Essential, I suspect the OP's set up more than pays for her own horses - and the livery is a consequence of having the land - rather thank looking for the land to set up livery (iykwim). So it's win, win all around. I don't consider this taking the p8ss - just being business savvy.

 

[Wagtail]

I'm a small business owner too - and while it's not horse related it is dog related - and I have to say that I can totally sympathise with this. People think I must rake it in, doing what I do. But if they understood the costs they'd be shocked. And it's the same for most small businesses, particularly when animals are involved.

I agree. I have been a customer as well as a business owner. And I have to say that when I was a livery client, I saw the whole of the livery fee as profit for the owner. I also expected a lot in terms of maintenance, levelling the arena etc. I look back in shame to be honest.

 

[Posie]

Totally agree PucciNPony, people don't realise what the costs are, we don't do liverys now except for breaking/schooling due to it.

 

[Wagtail]

The yards I have been on have been wonderful. DIY, full or part livery - whichever is wanted. Even on DIY there was a routine that had to be adhered to to a certain extent. YO's very hands on, and all animals looked after to a very high standard.

My livery charges have barely changed in the last several years - the only thing that changes regularly is the cost of haylage (provided by the yard, but still more than reasonable).

I think done properly DIY is more profitable than full livery - but it's obviously the choice of the YO to which services they offer.

Essential, I suspect the OP's set up more than pays for her own horses - and the livery is a consequence of having the land - rather thank looking for the land to set up livery (iykwim). So it's win, win all around. I don't consider this taking the p8ss - just being business savvy.

You are right Amy. I don't do DIY and I have made a loss most years because of buying new equipment and improving the yard. But if I did not do these extras then yes, the business would pay for my horses and I have the company of some lovely horsey people too. It certainly does not make me any money, but it does pay for my hobby.

However, it does irk me when people think you are coining it in, when really, things they are asking you for actually will cost you money that you cannot afford.

 

[Paddy Irish]

Below are my actual costs (excluding all feed, bedding, shoeing, dentist, worming etc) of running a yard for 7 horses. So these are the ACTUAL costs per horse of doing DIY only.

Maintenance of fencing, arena,paddocks, muck removal, skip hire etc £48.98 pm £11.30 pw
Communications, admin, £6.19 pm £1.43 pw
Rates £10.40 pm, £2.40 pw
Electric and electrical repairs £9.04 pm, £2.09 pw
Insurance £34.29 pm, £7.91 pw
water £5.05 pm, £1.16 pw
Other £3.77 pm, £0.87 pw
Total £117.73 pm, £27.17 pw

No wonder so many yards are out of business. People want to pay peanuts and expect the earth.

I don't do DIY because I couldn't afford to and want to make sure all horses are on the same routine and know they are all well cared for, but wanted to post these actual figures so people realised just how well off they were and why sometimes on DIY yards things may not always get done to the highest specification.

So i take it you have to double this price per horse to make any realistic chance of a profit? And why shouldn't you make a profit - you've got to be able to pay your bills etc - god knows how these livery yards make ends meet.

 

[AmyMay]

However, it does irk me when people think you are coining it in, when really, things they are asking you for actually will cost you money that you cannot afford.

I don't think people really think YO's are coining it in (only the deluded few, who have no idea of the cost of things........)

 

[PucciNPoni]

I don't think people really think YO's are coining it in (only the deluded few, who have no idea of the cost of things........)

But that would be the mass majority of folk I've met on Livery Yards

Most of them do the maths in their head (lets see, there's 25 horses on this yeard x £30 per week, that's £750/week in the YO's pockets for doing "nothing" but collect cheques). But many might consider that the lights (electricity) and water charges DO cost something. However, they wouldn't even perhaps realise that the fences, the harrowing the fields the school maintenence and so on cost something - it's just taken for granted.

And I KNOW that I'm clueless about the costs associated with running a yard - but I'm sure it's going to be a lot more than what I think!

 

[Wagtail]

Most of them do the maths in their head (lets see, there's 25 horses on this yeard x £30 per week, that's £750/week in the YO's pockets for doing "nothing" but collect cheques). But many might consider that the lights (electricity) and water charges DO cost something. However, they wouldn't even perhaps realise that the fences, the harrowing the fields the school maintenence and so on cost something - it's just taken for granted.

And I KNOW that I'm clueless about the costs associated with running a yard - but I'm sure it's going to be a lot more than what I think!

That's exactly right. I know, because I once used to think that too, when I was very young and a DIY livery client. Also, by some of the comments on here, it is a very common perspective.

 

[Littlelegs]

Very common. We have very basic, cheap farm diy. One numpty has actually asked the farmer if he could build an arena at no extra charge! She honestly doesn't think its reasonable for her to move to the yard a few miles away that does have one as they charge more.

 

[Wagtail]

Very common. We have very basic, cheap farm diy. One numpty has actually asked the farmer if he could build an arena at no extra charge! She honestly doesn't think its reasonable for her to move to the yard a few miles away that does have one as they charge more.

Unbelievable!

 

[Penny Less]

Our diy yard is only a third full but the owner still has to pay rates on every stable I assume ? Water is metered so obviously lower bill with less liveries. But insurance rate would still be full whack. Our yard is a farm, and down at heel but the hacking is the best in the area

 

[doonrocket]

Just in the process of buying a place myself and moving from full (ish) livery for 4. Take the Mortgage into account and it's no cheaper, and I'll have the privilege of looking after them myself. But then at least I'll have the privilege off looking after them myself

 

[Starzaan]

I am currently in the process of closing my current yard of 22 horses to move to a new, and much nicer yard, for fourteen. On the current yard I offer DIY, but I will never, ever do so again.
My experience has been that out of the 22 horses I have on livery with me, the three DIYs have caused more stress and cost me more money than all the others.
It does make me angry when people start moaning about how expensive livery is - try running a yard! I have made my prices as low as possible, but I have to cover my costs and be able to eat!

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

I think its because people probably dont think about things like business water meters (which they might not have at home), maybe 3 phase electricity (more expensive than single phase supply at home), cost of much removal (just assume it disappears for free) etc, and they certainly dont realise how much business rates cost and the fact its charged even on empty stables.

 

[Wagtail]

I am currently in the process of closing my current yard of 22 horses to move to a new, and much nicer yard, for fourteen. On the current yard I offer DIY, but I will never, ever do so again.
My experience has been that out of the 22 horses I have on livery with me, the three DIYs have caused more stress and cost me more money than all the others.
It does make me angry when people start moaning about how expensive livery is - try running a yard! I have made my prices as low as possible, but I have to cover my costs and be able to eat!

I think that often it is the people who pay the least will moan the most. (Though not all, of course). I hope that your new venture goes well. Are you moving far or are you taking your best liveries with you?

 

[Wagtail]

I think its because people probably dont think about things like business water meters (which they might not have at home), maybe 3 phase electricity (more expensive than single phase supply at home), cost of much removal (just assume it disappears for free) etc, and they certainly dont realise how much business rates cost and the fact its charged even on empty stables.

That is what shocked me the most. When I first had this place rated, I only had one livery. It took a while to fill the other stables and I had no guarantee that I would, but I still had to pay rates on them. Most expensive for me though is my arena, as it is floodlit and so large. The better the quality, the higher the business rates. Therefore not much incentive for YO's to improve the facilities!

 

[Jazzy B]

You need to come to the Surrey Hills Wagtail and set up here. Our grass livery is average for the area at £270pcm, that includes a field (only harrowed once a year, no ferterliser or other care) a sandschool that is currently locked for quarter of the year due to lack of adequate drainage and a bit of storage space in the tack room. Feed is in a "shed" with no windows and a leaking roof. But we pay for the excellent hacking and great people. I believe the rent is high and that is why prices are so high round here but I do gulp at my livery bill every month, cross the border to sussex and grass is £100pcm.

gosh prices have gone up there then, I used to pay £55 a month for part livery in 2005 when I lived down there, your right the hacking is fab - miss Happy Valley sooooo much!

 

[Woodykat]

I'm at a fab place that does diy for £20 a week - this includes use of the indoor school (which isn't fab, or big, but has a roof at least!).

When the rates went up, liveries complained when the YO asked us to pay an extra £10 per month. Now the YO isn't the strongest of characters (too nice) and so a lot of people are getting away with not paying

I pay it though, as I love the place, and I know that when it comes to the time that she's fed up and kicks people off - guess who'll be the only ones allowed to stay I can't wait!!

Until then, I'm happy to appreciate that things aren't always going to be in the best condition, and that's fine - as I'm perfectly capable of fixing them myself most of the time!