Yard Prices - Fed Up

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Omi49

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Am I the only one who is fed up with keep paying out and not receiving much for my money and the feeling that they have you over a barrel.
Some of us are actually good clients to have, tidy, pay ontime etc but still that isn't enough for some yard owners..
Fed up in Bramshill!
 
yep, i've moved and even though it is further away, it is working out so far, it was not so much the price it, was the greed, we were looked on as soft targets and only events that made a cracking profit were laid on. No effort was made to improve/maintain facilities unless increased income resulted. There has been a mass exodus.
 
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MrsD123 said:
yep, i've moved and even though it is further away, it is working out so far, it was not so much the price it, was the greed, we were looked on as soft targets and only events that made a cracking profit were laid on. No effort was made to improve/maintain facilities unless increased income resulted. There has been a mass exodus.
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Excuse my ignorance but isn't that how you run a business, you put on events or services to produce an income which is either plowed back into the business or used to maintain it ie pay the bills.

I really don't think liveries really uinderstand the costs involved in keeping a yard open tbh.
 
I think people are unrealistic about how much things really cost. Yards are there to make a profit - no one runs one for fun. If they do not keep up maintainance and facilities then move! If the next yard is better but more expensive that proves the point - it costs money to do these things. Wages, insurance, materials, feed, services etc have all increased everywhere so why would yards be any different? If they do not make a profit they will close.
I believe, as a client, (and a good one) that it is up to me where I spend my money and how much I spend. The yard offers a service - take it or leave it:)
 
I agree with MISST, 100%

Livery Yards are a business, they are there to make money.

We have several businesses and they are all expected to make some sort of income/living from them - otherwise what is the point?

I have said this on a previous post - livery yards have overheads, and they are not cheap. All costs increase, including the electricity you use whilst there, the water rates, council rates, etc... and so this list goes on.
Then there is the insurance of the premises and possibly staffing it.

Livery yards vary massively in terms of quality (service etc...), and thus price.

Depending on your disposable income I guess will dictate to you what kind of livery you can afford. If you can't afford much - then don't expect world class facilities.

Maintaining property is expensive, and the idea in business is that your income allows some capital expenditure on such repairs/works/updates. Captial investment - e.g. a new arena requires a return on that investment - so an increase in the income otherwise it's money that may have well not been spent. This could be in the livery instance an increase to livery fees as services are improved.

Be realistic in understanding businesses, the livery yard is no exception.
Whilst this is your hobby, it is a (the yard owners) business to someone else.

If you disagree with a yard, then perhaps look for another one, but you will probably find no yard is perfect - it's which of the imperfections you are happy to live with.

Otherwise buy your property with land and keep them at home, where you can then obviously do exactly what you like and without feeling overcharged.
 
CHH said:
I agree with MISST, 100%

Livery Yards are a business, they are there to make money.

[snip]

Depending on your disposable income I guess will dictate to you what kind of livery you can afford. If you can't afford much - then don't expect world class facilities.
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But being a business, they should be run in a professional manner. If Yard Owners cannot provide facilities and maintain them in an acceptable state, then they should stop advertising that they have those facilities, and price themselves accordingly.

I don't think many people are silly enough to expect five-star full livery at DIY grass livery prices, and if they are, they have only themselves to blame. However, if you are paying several hundred pounds a month for livery, on a yard where you expect decent services and facilities, it is reasonable to be aggrieved if you are not getting those services and facilities.
 
Trundle - yes but then one needs to then assume that the person running the yard is both a business person and a professional.

If service is not as expected then people should either discuss or move, perhaps then something may change.
however it could also be likely that the YO has not the funds to make changes, this is common too.

I've met a surprising number of people who run yards who do not have good business approach, horsey or not.

You are right about advertising, they need to be honest about what they offer.

I've seen adverts of yards I have actually visited and the photos look a whole lot better than the reality, adn the description can be a little 'imaginative' as to what is offered.

Because this is a 'hobby' industry and involves something emotive - the horse, I think this will always be a difficult discussion.

Good yards will charge correctly and behave correctly, as will good customers pay correctly and behave correctly.
Sadly the not-so-great of both are around though.

I hope for those not happy/moving they find somewhere nice to settle, and with a professional person running the yard.
 
I have my own place and absolutely refuse to do liveries. I used to but its not worth it. Nobody wants to pay a true cost,think I was running it for fun and not profit and didnt realise the cost of new fencing,repairs insurance etc etc. Then there was the non payers,thouse who wouldnt feed their horses enough hay ,skimpy dirty beds, especially around Christmas time,but all going out partying and buying presents. I just gave up and made them all go away. I enjoy my free space and time with my own horses now. Much better.
 
Sometimes though Hoofit it not just about facilities and costs that determine people staying where they are.

Things like friendships, convenience from home, arrangements with others on exisiting yard and by this I mean maybe the person has an arrangement with someone on their current yard to turn out if they bring in or transport to shows is available for the cost of a diesel contribution, loads of things could keep people from moving.

In my experience 1 person rarely leaves a yard on their own normally two or three friends leave together.
 
I still do not understand why people complain but stay?? A little moan now and then is normal and healthy;) but if you really believe you pay over the odds or you feel maintainance is so bad then leave. If you cannot find anywhere better for the same money (which is often the reason given IME) then you need to accept what you can afford - unpalatable but true.

I live in Surrey and no where is cheap. At present I rent a lovely little spot with a friend from a nice lady. We pay slightly over the odds for it but we like it. I never complain that I pay too much rent because I knew the rent when I took it on. I have, over the years, been on some rubbish cheap yards and some equally rubbish expensive yards, but life is like that and as a customer you can take your money and horses elsewhere. If I thought my landlady was "greedy" I would not have taken the yard on. She does, however, need a return on her land and we did not want to share with anyone else.

Horses are expensive - fact - we need to live with it. Those of us who cannot afford to buy land have to accept a compromise, there are some lovely yard owners out there.
 
Ive seen varoius posts in the past where YO's make no money or are at a loss. My reply - put your prices up!!! As others have already said, livery yards aren't cheap but people seem to want to keep horses for low cost. Sure there are ways to cut the costs of horse keeping, but the basic necessities are still there. Running a business isnt cheap, keeping land and buildings in good order isnt cheap, plus insurance etc etc etc.

However I do agree that if you are paying all of this and are getting rubbish quality and service in return then its time to move. I did exactly this 3 years ago. When paying for full care (while away with work) I expected the horses to be fed (before lunch) turned out (before lunch) mucked out (ie take the wet and the poo out, not scrape around it) and not to have to ask my hubby to go up after work to check they were still alive! When I lost my rag about it, it was never 'her' fault...hmmm. What you find is that yards like this end up empty - word gets around and people steer clear. As we all know the horsey world is a small one:)
 
£80 a week might sound alright to you now Hoofit when the days are long and there's grass. But what happens if we have another 2-3 months of snow and ice cover? another bad harvest with pricey hay to feed ad lib when those horses can't go out? when it's taking you an extra few hours a day just to provide water? getting paid a pittance then makes you think a bit. Unless your property and facilities are mortgage/debt free I can't see how you'll turn a profit on that. In fact, your rates alone for an indoor are massive up here in Scotland.


fact of the matter is, if we all paid what it actually cost in man hours etc etc to keep a horse at full livery, the majority of us couldnt afford it. the margins are tiny, a bad winter can scupper them and if you want to keep good staff you can't risk laying people off in the summer because you are charging less livery for the same overheads.

having horses is expensive and there's noone like horse people for expecting others to subsidise their luxury hobby.
 
BBH said:
Excuse my ignorance but isn't that how you run a business, you put on events or services to produce an income which is either plowed back into the business or used to maintain it ie pay the bills.

I really don't think liveries really uinderstand the costs involved in keeping a yard open tbh.
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Correct BBH, but if you have minimal costs and the existing facilities have been paid for by the liveries, and the whole of the business relies on cash provided by the liveries, then the liveries get fed up, in the case I am thinking about, 15 people work full time over winter, but only three of them work with horses, and the liveries are DIY!!!
I had better be careful, as this will identify my yard!!!
 
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trundle said:
But being a business, they should be run in a professional manner. If Yard Owners cannot provide facilities and maintain them in an acceptable state, then they should stop advertising that they have those facilities, and price themselves accordingly.

I don't think many people are silly enough to expect five-star full livery at DIY grass livery prices, and if they are, they have only themselves to blame. However, if you are paying several hundred pounds a month for livery, on a yard where you expect decent services and facilities, it is reasonable to be aggrieved if you are not getting those services and facilities.
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omg are you at my yard?
 
"the existing facilities have been paid for by the liveries" Did the liveries club together and pay for the facilities or did the YO supply the facilities out of the income they received from the liveries? Two very different things! I did think of doing livery at one time but, to be honest, reading the complaints on the Horse and Hound Forums made me rethink, as I have come to the conclusion that it must be impossible to keep some people happy.:( Yes I do recognise that there are "bad" livery yards, but horses have legs and owners have feet, all you have to do is go elsewhere and if there is no alternative then you will just have to rethink your situation! If all the liveries on these "bad" yards left the YO could either improve things or go out of business and if they cant afford to improve things then they obviously aren't charging enough to make it financially viable or there are other drains on their resources which need to be looked at (by the YO not the liveries:D).
 
Hoofit i wish you luck. My costs for a horse here on full livery are 2Xbedding - £10, adlib haylage, £10. feed £10 a week. so my costs are £30 per horse before any work is done. Then there is turn out and bring in 7 days a week, full muck out. so at your prices I would be receiving £50 a week per horse to cover those costs. Well that means the wage you are paying yourself will be less than £5 an hour. And you have not accounted for business rates, insurance, electricity, water, field maintenance, fertilising, soil sampling, weed spraying, topping, harrowing, poo picking etc. I charge £120 a week for full livery and to be honest prefer DIY liveries because they pay for what they use when they use it and there is minmal unpaid work required from myself. I still have liveries think that the £30 a week they are paying me enables me to live in luxury. it doesn;t it covers its cost and enables me to maintain the place.
Costs have gone up dramatically, fertilising cost me £250, then last year £1300. My contractors for weed spraying have moved their costs from £17 and hour for man and machine to £24 an hour. bedding has gone up, haylage wrap has gone up my haylage bales cost me £9 each to make 3 years ago - last year they cost me £14. Great - thats cheap - only £14 a bale - but that is merely the contractors cost. It does not amortise in the cost of grassland maintenance to produce good haylage. I do not begrudge my liveries i enjoy having them there. I hate the attitude from some - now ex - that they are doing me a favour and I should be at their beck and call and that I am expensive. Vote with your feet, go somewhere else, but don;t think any livery yard is getting rich on livery fees. If they are correctly insured and legal!
 
I quite agree that costs are rising and profits are limited, for most YO it is a lifestyle choice, otherwise they would not be involved with horses, which are a real pain from a farming point of view, not to mention having to control the horse owners, locally one yard opened with super facilities including a cross country course, the costs were £90 per week summer and winter, so they make profit in summer, and have a lean time in winter, but they were full in a few weeks of opening, a business going somewhere, now has a small yard full of keen competition types and it suits everybody, YO and family do all the work and owners come, ride, tidy up and go home happy.
YO gets extra income from instructing, and now she has her main client base on site, very well worked out strategy imho.
 
NO - that £5 an hour includes, the cost of electricity, water, etc. Also you are working it at 10 horses to an hour - so £50 an hour. Realistically each horse will take over an hour over the day at least, to make up feeds, muck out, turn out, rug, pick out feet, groom, bring in, rug, bed down, top up hay/water etc. So it is £5 an hour and you will need 10 hours, so £50 a day! 7 days a week. So each horse will only give you £50 a week. less your business costs.

Have you added in maintenance costs, have you costed in your time and your parents time? I charge £75 a week part livery - which includes 5 days of me mucking out, bringing in rugs etc, 7 days of ad libhaylage and feed and 1 bedding and owner looks after the horse 2 days a week.

I would go back and look at your figures of £80 for full livery. I suspect you have not amortised your business rates, insurances including care and control and fire damage to bedding and hay, muck removal, field maintenanc, electricity and water. And I also suspect you have not costed in your time and your parents at at least a minimum wage.
 
Hoofit, from what I can see of livery yards the main thing is to have a very simple and efficient system, I know one YO who feeds Allen and Page Calm and Condition because all horses will eat it and do well on it without fizz, the temptation is to try to manage every horse individually, and that takes time, in one yard I was in we had 160 horses and they all got fed the same nuts, they were top of the trainers league for quite a long while, though I do not advocate such a rigid regime, in another champion trainers yard horses were fed the same, chaff, and mix, but if cantering they got oats, another simple system.
Mucking out takes a lot of time, a large barrow and a close muck heap or trailer saves time, I used to muck out straight in to a trailer, not ideal but I had 12 mares in boxes and fifteen in an open yard, so I had my hands full most of the day, and Monday was a bit of a struggle!!!!! The beds were not ideal but their feet were OK and there was plenty of straw.
I had to resign due to RSI from holding a brush all day!
 
I think that a lot of the problems on yards are because they are not run or presented professionally.

You go and see a new yard and you're told that this is available, that isn't a problem and that certain facilities (all year turnout anybody?) are a given. You can do a certain amount of research but that isn't infallible so you have to take the YOs word to an extent. Most of the time the YOs don't intend to lie but when they have empty stables they want to fill them. Then after you have spent time, money and stress moving you discover that there are caveats so resentment sets in.

Remember that moving a horse isn't as easy as deciding to shop in a different supermarket but horse owners are consumers - they are paying for a service.
I have never been on yard that has a livery contract so I can't comment whether that would save misunderstandings.

Can I add that I'm not unreasonable, don't think that it's all about meeeeeee and that I'm very clear about what I need on a yard - not looking for x country course, set of show jumps, indoor school, hanging baskets etc but do need turnout, no rigid opening/closing times and a non leaky stable...

Oh and if a livery is taking the pee about something could YOs please man up and deal with that person rather than taking a passive aggressive approach and punishing the whole yard for that persons wrongdoing!

Possibly more yards would become viable businesses if they were run on a pay per use basis ie lower base price for stable, water, electric and turnout and then a weekly/monthly charge for everything else from trailer parking, proper secure tack room, schools, services, bedding, hay. If you want to buy your own for the last two - you could pay for a storage space. Very different from what most of us are used to but when I looked at buying a yard a few years back I had more or less decided that was what I would do if I had gone ahead. The reasoning was that if you had a retired/pet type you wouldn't pay a fortune but peeps who wanted more could have it and hopefully the yard would have appealed to more 'types' of riders. I have to say that I never did the number crunching for the above in huge detail as the mortgage required made it impossible to proceed.
 
i have moved round the country for work and consequently have been in a few yards.

most well run, some had weird rules as in you where not allowed to be on the yard after 2pm on a sunday.

i pay on time, always let YO know if my work schedule was taking me off etc. but the one thing i have to admit that gets to me is when there are hierarchy within the liverys and it is propergated by the YO, as in if we are all paying them same to be their, to use the facilties, but some believe they have more rights to use the school or walker etc

i know this is slightly off topic, but as a plea to YM or YO out there, if a person is paying the same as all the others it doesn't matter that the pony is a hairy cob etc they can still use the school even if the baby eventer wants it

just realised i sound bitter and twisted oops
 
cbmcts said:
I think that a lot of the problems on yards are because they are not run or presented professionally.
You go and see a new yard and you're told that this is available, that isn't a problem and that certain facilities (all year turnout anybody?) are a given. You can do a certain amount of research but that isn't infallible so you have to take the YOs word to an extent.
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I did read your post, but you found out that you could not run a business in the way you describe, ie it has to have low overheads [rent and rates] and low running costs.
No yard can give 50 different people their own space, it would be impractical to set aside 50 locked areas suited to forage and tack etc, if everything is not locked up it disappears, in every yard this happens, even sometimes by mistake!
As a customer one has to consider the convenience and the cost, but the main thing to me is the welfare of the horse and safe hacking, this is not as important to most people, so there are checks and balances.
I had a very professional presentation by a complete *******, I was really impressed by the hacking as told to me, some people might think it is OK to cross a main road just after a blind corner, I would not! One area I was told I could access was several miles up a narrow track beside a ravine, then I would have to get off and lead my horse through rutted tree roots, highly dangerous, and really impossible, the other route was as steep as Hickstead bank, just twice as high, I would have needed an ice pick and crampons to climb it myself never mind on horseback!
 
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Holly and ivy "i know this is slightly off topic, but as a plea to YM or YO out there, if a person is paying the same as all the others it doesn't matter that the pony is a hairy cob etc they can still use the school even if the baby eventer wants it"

i hear you plea and take this on board i totlly agree if you all paying for the same thing EVERY one is treated the same way. Thats one of the reasons i only offer full livery it makes life simple for me very horse is kept on the same routine reg feeding times mucking out skipping out etc and every one pays the full livery price or the full livery + horse exercised price.

xxx J
 
MrsD123 said:
I did read your post, but you found out that you could not run a business in the way you describe, ie it has to have low overheads [rent and rates] and low running costs.
No yard can give 50 different people their own space, it would be impractical to set aside 50 locked areas suited to forage and tack etc, if everything is not locked up it disappears, in every yard this happens, even sometimes by mistake!
As a customer one has to consider the convenience and the cost, but the main thing to me is the welfare of the horse and safe hacking, this is not as important to most people, so there are checks and balances.
I had a very professional presentation by a complete *******, I was really impressed by the hacking as told to me, some people might think it is OK to cross a main road just after a blind corner, I would not! One area I was told I could access was several miles up a narrow track beside a ravine, then I would have to get off and lead my horse through rutted tree roots, highly dangerous, and really impossible, the other route was as steep as Hickstead bank, just twice as high, I would have needed an ice pick and crampons to climb it myself never mind on horseback!
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No, that yard was viable except that I wasn't in the position to invest the capital due to the economic climate at that time - restrictions on commercial mortages and all that! Admittedly that was a yard with a huge amount of space, both land and on the yard itself so doing a piecemeal/personalised livery was perhaps easier than on others. As it happens I chose to continue my career as it was rather than changing it which buying the yard would have caused. Ask me in 10 years if I made the right decision ;) A lot of yards do give private storage to avoid the rucks about 'borrowing' and as most of us are aware our tack isn't insured unless the tackroom meets certain standards which include the quantities of tack stored there. Though I still think that yards will prosper if they actually provide a professional (including pricing, I don't expect anyone to work for nothing!) service rather than running it by the seat of their pants, lurching from crisis to crisis because nothing is thought through in advance where the liveries don't know what is happening/permitted from one day to the next and all the drama that goes with it!

I would have thought the welfare of anybodys horse didn't need to be stated - I don't anyone who even thought about moving yard without making that their absolute priority?

As for the hacking - that is just what I meant about being able to check up on what a YO said - you can at least go and look at the local hacking routes in advance but the actual management of the yard is much harder to check. Which does make it hard to know if you've made the right decision until too late...
 
cbmcts said:
I think that a lot of the problems on yards are because they are not run or presented professionally.

You go and see a new yard and you're told that this is available, that isn't a problem and that certain facilities (all year turnout anybody?) are a given. You can do a certain amount of research but that isn't infallible so you have to take the YOs word to an extent. Most of the time the YOs don't intend to lie but when they have empty stables they want to fill them. Then after you have spent time, money and stress moving you discover that there are caveats so resentment sets in.

Remember that moving a horse isn't as easy as deciding to shop in a different supermarket but horse owners are consumers - they are paying for a service.
I have never been on yard that has a livery contract so I can't comment whether that would save misunderstandings.

Can I add that I'm not unreasonable, don't think that it's all about meeeeeee and that I'm very clear about what I need on a yard - not looking for x country course, set of show jumps, indoor school, hanging baskets etc but do need turnout, no rigid opening/closing times and a non leaky stable...

Oh and if a livery is taking the pee about something could YOs please man up and deal with that person rather than taking a passive aggressive approach and punishing the whole yard for that persons wrongdoing!

Possibly more yards would become viable businesses if they were run on a pay per use basis ie lower base price for stable, water, electric and turnout and then a weekly/monthly charge for everything else from trailer parking, proper secure tack room, schools, services, bedding, hay. If you want to buy your own for the last two - you could pay for a storage space. Very different from what most of us are used to but when I looked at buying a yard a few years back I had more or less decided that was what I would do if I had gone ahead. The reasoning was that if you had a retired/pet type you wouldn't pay a fortune but peeps who wanted more could have it and hopefully the yard would have appealed to more 'types' of riders. I have to say that I never did the number crunching for the above in huge detail as the mortgage required made it impossible to proceed.
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well said - pay per use fab idea!
 
Whilst some yards manage this I cannot see it would work as a business model - in a recession people needing to save money would cut back on horsewalker sessions, or use the school less, or become more and more DIY. If the yard had good facilities then how would it cover its costs? If you are going to invest then surely you need a measurable income to recoup costs?

I am quite amazed at how some people (not always on here but at yards in general) believe the yard needs to be run for their benefit. It needs to provide a level of service that keeps most of the people happy most of the time, not meet every individual need for every individual quirk. Unless you are paying proper top money I think people need to compromise on something most of the time, facilities, price, type of turnot, help available etc. For me safe turnout is probably number one at the moment as I have a retired girl and an unbacked 2yo. When the baby is backed facilities and hacking will move up the priorities - so I will need to pay more.
 
Hoofit said:
Holly and ivy "i know this is slightly off topic, but as a plea to YM or YO out there, if a person is paying the same as all the others it doesn't matter that the pony is a hairy cob etc they can still use the school even if the baby eventer wants it"

xxx J
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this is due entirely to selfishness on the part of the rider, nothing really to do with the Yard manager [except that you have to complain to her] I had a youngster to school over poles, I waited till the young lady who was lunging had been it the school for 30 minutes, she told someone she was nearly finished, but when she saw it was me wanted to come in [I had complained to her about pinching my hay-net], she lunged that poor horse for another twenty minutes in the corner I wanted to use for my grid work, just selfishness and self importance.
 
FreddieBoy said:
well said - pay per use fab idea!
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I'd hate to be a yard manger on pay per use, you 'd have people using facilites and "forgetting" to record use, then at the end of the month you have to spend two days working out costs, send out an invoice then sit back and wait for complaints, then have to check payment of every horse, what a nightmare.
Pay per use if it is a solarium but even then the slot machine is about £300 on its own.
The yard manger has to have a regular income to ensure he has enough to cover outgoings as they occur, this would lead to all sorts of problems.
some yards have DIY and part livery and full livery, is this not enough?
 
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