Yet another bare foot question!!!!!

Crugeran Celt

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I have a 10 year old Welsh Sect D that has very good feet, he was unshod until I bought him as a 5 year old, they had him shod to sell. Farrier recommended about 5 months ago that he went bare foot as was not doing a huge amount of work so had his shoes removed. I realised I would have to give him time to adjust but he is still terrible on any stoney ground which unfortunately I have to ride over to get out of our lane in either direction. On the road he is now fine was a little short strided to start but is great now until we try riding over anything remotely stoney, he stumbles and this morning he actually went down on his knees! My question is do I keep trying over the winter and hope his feet harden off or give in now and have shoes put back on? Farrier cannot understand why he is so bad on stoney ground as he says his feet are in very good condition and are strong, he is really surprised that he is still struggling on stones. I would prefere him unshod if possible and if I didn't have to ride over the lane I wouldn't be asking this question at all as he is great on other surfaces.
 

tallyho!

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Does the farrier give any advice on what you are feeding? Diet is more important than trim, and exercise is more important than diet but you need to gets things right in that order. Trim, diet, exercise. What is he getting food wise?
 

TwoStroke

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As tallyho says, these issues are usually caused by diet.

I must say though, that I think if the horse is that bad when you ride out you need to do something about it asap. I would suggest front boots for hacking out; then you can sort out your diet issues whilst keeping the horse comfy.
 

Crugeran Celt

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He has no hard feed at all, he is a very good doer. he lives out 24/7 with good all year round grazing which hasn't been fertilized but has many different types of grasses. He has good quality hay ad lib over winter and is fed once a day with Dodson and Horrells 'Safe and Sound'. This was recommended by the farrier as it has vitamins and minerals to help with foot condition. He is in good condition if a little over weight at the moment which will obviously adjust over winter. He has never had any foot problems over the 5 years I have had him and has always been sound. I am riding him 4 or 5 times a week for about an hour maximum at a time, usually 3/4 of an hour. As I say once I am off the lane and on the tarmarced road he is fine. I had to get off him this morning coming down our lane as I was afraid he was going to fall he was stumbling so badly. He was trimmed last Thursday but shows no signs of discomfort in the field after the trim. I don't want to give up on the bare foot idea but I feel I am a bit cruel pushing it like this.
 

here_i_am

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The sugar in the grass will start vanishing now, so if he gets better over winter, it's the grass that was the problem. In which case, you'll have to restrict him somehow in the spring. Difficult, but do-able.
If he doesn't get better over winter, he's probably deficient in specific minerals (usually copper and magnesium are the 2 main ones). Look at starting him on magnesium oxide (have a look on ebay).
Also, Safe & Sound has molasses in it, so you might want to look around for a molasses-free feed.
Have you considered hoof boots for his front feet when you're hacking?
 

here_i_am

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Another thing - does your farrier trim his soles and frogs? If so, ask him not to. He needs to build up nice thick soles & frogs. Trimming them is the opposite of helpful.
 

Crugeran Celt

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Thankyou for your replies, much appreciated. My farrier does not trim his soles or frogs just tidies up the walls really. I will check out the minerals as suggested, the only question I have on that is can it go the other way and they have too much? I will also look at an alternative for the 'safe and sound'. His grazing is resitricted over the summer months and he has only just gone out on his winter turnout this week. My other horse, a 19 year old Welsh Sect D X TB has had laminitis so as they graze together I am very careful with their access to to much grass. She has been sound for a few years now just have to very careful with her but we have worked out how to cope with her thank goodness. I have tried boots on him but he is a complete wimp and he won't walk in them! So would you keep trying over the winter or give in to shoes first as last?
 

TwoStroke

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Ime few horses can cope on 24/7 turn out in the uk and stay rock crunching year round - though it is possible, but depends greatly on the horse. My 4yo for e.g. is out 24/7 and still rock crunching, but my TB would need boots (if he weren't broken :rolleyes:).

You could either

a) restrict grass and feed more hay (along with a good mineral supplement in a base like fast fibre)

b) boot for rides on stoney ground

c) shoe.

You say that he's not on any hard feed - isn't 'safe and sound' hard feed? Are you feeding the recommended quantities? If so that could be a source of problems. If not, there will be negligable amounts of minerals in the feed, rendering it pointless ;) (hence my suggestion to add a decent supplement, such as pro balance+).
 

amandap

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Crugeran Celt

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I don't class is as a hard feed as its a forage, he does have the recommended amount but only in the winter, he has nothing but grass in the summer. My vet has always said that there is no substitiute for good qaulity grazing for horses but I am beginning to question that! He has never had foot problems before as I have said and his feet look really good and farrier always says what good condition they are in. He fussed this morning so much walking down the lane I almost brought him home but continued to the road to meet up with a friend on her mare and as soon as he saw her he strode out and greeted her. He was completely sound on the road and walked and totted with no problems we then had to come back down the lane to get home and he started stumbling again to such an extent I got off. He wasn't this bad when I rode him last but he has had a few days off and hasn't gone out since he was trimmed last Thursday so I am beginning to wonder if he is a little sore from the trim. He has improved since his shoes first come off and I really thought we were getting somewhere then this this morning. I have never had to get off him before.:(
 

Kat

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Buy him some boots for hacking until he is less sore. They don't cost much compared to shoeing all year and you can use them only when you need them. My boots cost about £70 for a pair including some gel pads, at that you are quids in after a couple of shoeing cycles, and they last much longer as they are only worn when you need them, so your boy could stay barefoot when turned out or in the school and just wear the boots for hacking.
 

Crugeran Celt

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Thanks Kat but he has a problem with boots, he won't walk in them! When he had his shoes removed he kept looking at his feet all the time when he walked because they weren't making a noise. He really is a numpty! I am going to some research on mineral suppliments to help strengthen his feet and go from there as suggested already. Again thanks everyone for you help. Lets hope I don't have to put shoes back on.
 

WestCoast

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It's been 5 months, he's still sore when he is ridden and at risk of injury if he falls, if he won't tolerate boots (he may just need a little time to get used to them) then he needs shoes.

Goes and hides under bed.
 

Slightlyconfused

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Have a look at Pro Balance+ by progressive earth through eBay. It's for bf horses.
Also pm Oberon or Cptrays as they have a huge amount of knowledge between them. Oberon has helped me out loads with my lami going bf, answering long and prob stupid questions.
 

amandap

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Op, it's probably worth taking some photos for the more experienced posters. Follow these instructions I've quoted from another thread.
When a picture needs to be taken from the ground, that means get the camera literally on the floor, directly from the side, 4' away and centered on the mid point between heel and toe. Then there's the solar shot, with hoof raised, camera 2' away and looking directly down on the center of the frog and the whole hoof in the picture. Then there's the heel shot, where you lift the hoof, let it hang by one hand cupping the front of the fetlock joint, get the camera angled, so that you see the heel tops and rest of the hoof to the toe in the background. The camera should catch as much of the fetlock and cannon as possible and whole hoof in the picture again. Then there's the solar/side shot, where you lift the hoof up, get right to the side/level and then raise up enough to see the depth of the groove at the apex. Each foot needs this series of shots.
Shoes are one option of course but it might be worth trying to get to the bottom of his problems or at least some ideas where to start. :)
 

Oberon

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I don't class is as a hard feed as its a forage, he does have the recommended amount but only in the winter, he has nothing but grass in the summer. My vet has always said that there is no substitiute for good qaulity grazing for horses but I am beginning to question that! He has never had foot problems before as I have said and his feet look really good and farrier always says what good condition they are in. He fussed this morning so much walking down the lane I almost brought him home but continued to the road to meet up with a friend on her mare and as soon as he saw her he strode out and greeted her. He was completely sound on the road and walked and totted with no problems we then had to come back down the lane to get home and he started stumbling again to such an extent I got off. He wasn't this bad when I rode him last but he has had a few days off and hasn't gone out since he was trimmed last Thursday so I am beginning to wonder if he is a little sore from the trim. He has improved since his shoes first come off and I really thought we were getting somewhere then this this morning. I have never had to get off him before.:(

Pics would help us see what's going on.

Safe and Sound is 5% starch and 5% sugar - so it's right up there at the 10% bucket feed recommended. Ignore the bumpf on the bag and look at the figures.
I note you are getting a measly 55mg/kg of copper from it. The zinc level isn't mentioned.
Copper and zinc are routinely found low in the forage in the UK. They are really important in growing healthy hooves and production and control of insulin - which impacts the metabolism.

At this point I would say shoe the horse and make him more comfortable. Stumbling and struggling indicate pain. Pain in the hooves will create bracing tightness in the body......

If you are wanting to stay bare - then drop all bucket feed or use a supplement with a higher ratio of copper and zinc mixed into a small amount of something 'safe' - I can provide you with a list of safe stuff if required.

Get some boots and then give him as much exercise as possible (within his comfort).
 

amandap

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He fussed this morning so much walking down the lane I almost brought him home but continued to the road to meet up with a friend on her mare and as soon as he saw her he strode out and greeted her. He was completely sound on the road and walked and totted with no problems we then had to come back down the lane to get home and he started stumbling again to such an extent I got off.
Ime, excitement (or fear) ie. heightened emotion will often over ride any discomfort.
 

Kat

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Thanks Kat but he has a problem with boots, he won't walk in them! When he had his shoes removed he kept looking at his feet all the time when he walked because they weren't making a noise. He really is a numpty! I am going to some research on mineral suppliments to help strengthen his feet and go from there as suggested already. Again thanks everyone for you help. Lets hope I don't have to put shoes back on.

Just give him a bit more time, he will work out how comfy they are soon and you won't stop him.

Mine stood and sniffed them and peered at them and then walked like something out of Monty Python's Flying Circus at first but now she loves them and really walks out in them.

I put them on in the stable and left her in there with her hay for 15 minutes a times for the first few days and then I started walking her out in them. Give it another go, if he is sore he will be more comfortable in boots than he would be in shoes as they give cushioning and sole protection.
 

margaretb

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Sorry to hijack the post, but what would you suggest as an alternative to Safe and Sound? For a very good doer, prone to laminitis, had been barefoot but too footy this year to be comfortable. Shod fronts only.
 

Palindrome

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Thrush can make horses footy on stone but not on concrete so it is something to look for. Is there any crevasse at the center of the frog?
What kind of boot have you tried and are you sure they were the right size and did you use a gaiter or sock underneath?
Is he landing heel first on concrete/tarmac?
 

Palindrome

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Sorry to hijack the post, but what would you suggest as an alternative to Safe and Sound? For a very good doer, prone to laminitis, had been barefoot but too footy this year to be comfortable. Shod fronts only.

Not an expert, but I would assume it would go something like micronised linseed, general supplement (pro-hoof and the like), possibly extra magnesium and probiotics (yea-sacc or brewer yeast) depending of what is in the supplement and just a handful of "filler" to mix it in (fast fibre, unmolassed sugarbeet, hi fibre nuts with low starch and sugar), with ad lib soaked hay.
 

Crugeran Celt

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Pics would help us see what's going on.

Safe and Sound is 5% starch and 5% sugar - so it's right up there at the 10% bucket feed recommended. Ignore the bumpf on the bag and look at the figures.
I note you are getting a measly 55mg/kg of copper from it. The zinc level isn't mentioned.
Copper and zinc are routinely found low in the forage in the UK. They are really important in growing healthy hooves and production and control of insulin - which impacts the metabolism.

At this point I would say shoe the horse and make him more comfortable. Stumbling and struggling indicate pain. Pain in the hooves will create bracing tightness in the body......

If you are wanting to stay bare - then drop all bucket feed or use a supplement with a higher ratio of copper and zinc mixed into a small amount of something 'safe' - I can provide you with a list of safe stuff if required.

Get some boots and then give him as much exercise as possible (within his comfort).

Thanks that is really helpful, I am a little confused with him as he had improved so much and was walking up the lane all be it a little short strided but today it was impossible to ride him. He has been out of work since having his shoes removed to give him time to adjust and I have only really started him on a regular basis the last couple of weeks so just thought he needed time to get used to not having shoes on but he has gone backwards by some way today. I checked his feet when we got back but nothing obviously uncomfortable and he walked out the field no problem at all and then cantered over to the gate to go to his winter field. I did wonder if he had possibly stood on a stone in the field and bruised the foot. It is definately the one foot giving him the problem not all four. What would you recommend me to feed him that would be ok for my laminitic mare also? (She hasn't had laminitis for some years now but as she is unridden have to very careful with her diet).
 

Crugeran Celt

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It's been 5 months, he's still sore when he is ridden and at risk of injury if he falls, if he won't tolerate boots (he may just need a little time to get used to them) then he needs shoes.

Goes and hides under bed.

Its ok you can come out I am beginning to think that is my only choice!:D
 

Oberon

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Thanks that is really helpful, I am a little confused with him as he had improved so much and was walking up the lane all be it a little short strided but today it was impossible to ride him. He has been out of work since having his shoes removed to give him time to adjust and I have only really started him on a regular basis the last couple of weeks so just thought he needed time to get used to not having shoes on but he has gone backwards by some way today. I checked his feet when we got back but nothing obviously uncomfortable and he walked out the field no problem at all and then cantered over to the gate to go to his winter field. I did wonder if he had possibly stood on a stone in the field and bruised the foot. It is definately the one foot giving him the problem not all four. What would you recommend me to feed him that would be ok for my laminitic mare also? (She hasn't had laminitis for some years now but as she is unridden have to very careful with her diet).

I'll send you a pm with some feed suggestions.

Time to adjust is one thing, but hooves are like a muscle and they need work to become strong.

It's difficult to know what's going on without seeing the hooves.....but it could be a combination of diet/hormones (autumn)/thrush all added together to equal a sore horse.

If he has bruised as well it's all adding to a picture of weak and unhappy hooves.

They don't need to be weak and unhappy - sort out the diet as that is the foundation, and then see if he is comfy enough to work.

Boots would help him be comfortable enough to work when the diet is sorted.

If you can't do this - then shoeing is your best option.
 

Crugeran Celt

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I'll send you a pm with some feed suggestions.

Time to adjust is one thing, but hooves are like a muscle and they need work to become strong.

This is what my farrier has said and has recommended short walks daily on the road to strengthen his feet which I am trying although its not everyday but about 4 to 5 times a week.
 
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