Yikes, thats some attitude...!!!

SatansLittleHelper

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So, having had a couple of days to handle and start to get to know Bailey, it's apparent that he has some very serious attitude problems..!!!
He will pin his ears back, bite and threaten to kick for no obvious reason, sometimes you can touch him and other times not, he literally tries to walk over you and if another horse leaves the field all hell breaks loose. He tried to jump out tonight, nearly taking the fence with him, because my friend walked her mare in hand down the driveway. Obviously I realise it's very early days but I'm not sure where to start? I can catch him and put his head collar on, he's strong to lead but manageable. He's a prat to tie up but he's getting there. I've had him walking a short way around the farm in hand, at arms length and I can get him to stand briefly when asked, he will back up if I push his chest but I asked him to move over tonight by pushing his bum and he kicked out.
I'm not sure if it's confusion, expecting pain (He flinched constantly) or that he's just downright rude??
Thoughts etc appreciated, I've dealt with youngers but nothing like this one!!! 😱😱😱😱
 
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Palindrome

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Could you get him lunging? You might need a good round pen, if he kicks out you drive him forward. IME horses who kick out are either very confident and don't give a toss or scared, he sounds the second so you have to be his strong leader. Clicker training could also help to engage his brain and reward good behaviour.
 

ihatework

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I wouldn’t be leading him round the farm (and not ‘at arms length’) until he is a bit more relaxed and reliable with your presence.

Just get him in a routine to start with, don’t feel you have to do everything immediately. Much of what you describe could just as easily be anxiety,

Wear a hat when handling and keep close to him. Arms length and if you loose him you might find his feet where you don’t want them!
 

paddi22

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We get rescues in that are tricky to handle and you really have to be super hard with them from the word go so that they relax and can undwerstand that you know what you are doing and have consistent rules. . the more black and white and strict you are, the quicker they settle.

I foster some loons at times, and the first thing i do is get them used to being rubbed all over, then i teach them to lead properly at a respectful distance, and back up when told. And then basic lunging first in a round pen and making them change direction, and then on a lungeline
Generally once you have that in place they settle and everything else works itself out.
 

paddi22

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saying that, when i get any stressed horse ij i throw it in a field for at least two weeks to unwind and settle. i think too much handling before their have found their feet is damaging with some. I leave them in a field, they run off the adrenaline, settle, and then they let you know when they are ready to engage with you.
 

paddi22

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also, you need to turn off describing him as having 'attitude problems'. horses don't have attitude problems. all they do is react to how they feel in the moment. If he starts getting labelled as difficult or uncoperative, then he would be better off moving to a pro like cortez suggested. at the moment, all he is is a young, very stressed horse.
 

blitznbobs

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Is get him out of my space first ... I wouldn’t be pushing the bum of an unknown quantity - I’d be staying at the head end and moving the front end around. He needs to know that he never goes in your space first step once he’s got this message you can move on.
 

splashgirl45

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sounds like he is a bit scared. he is in his first new home with a new person. maybe wait a while before trying to do too much. just bring him in, give him a groom and be firm about any biting or kicking, its easy to type but not so easy to do...trying to jump out when your friend led her horse past shows a bit of insecurity he has not been with you long,,,if you feel overwhelmed is there a local professional who could come and give you a hand...
 

AmyMay

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I wouldn’t be leading him round the farm (and not ‘at arms length’) until he is a bit more relaxed and reliable with your presence.

Just get him in a routine to start with, don’t feel you have to do everything immediately. Much of what you describe could just as easily be anxiety,

Wear a hat when handling and keep close to him. Arms length and if you loose him you might find his feet where you don’t want them!

Absolutely spot on advice. And close is safer. Distance comes later, when he’s more reliable and safer to lead.

Is he only turned out with one other horse?
 

JFTDWS

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also, you need to turn off describing him as having 'attitude problems'. horses don't have attitude problems. all they do is react to how they feel in the moment. If he starts getting labelled as difficult or uncoperative, then he would be better off moving to a pro like cortez suggested. at the moment, all he is is a young, very stressed horse.

Absolutely - and I agree with Cortez that it sounds like you need some professional input really. He sounds stressed and in need of some decent training, and I don't think leading him around your farm is going to cut it really. Poking horses to make them back up / move over isn't a great strategy, and if that's how you're handling him, I think you probably need some guidance to help train him with proper manners.
 

Pearlsasinger

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Could you get him lunging? You might need a good round pen, if he kicks out you drive him forward. IME horses who kick out are either very confident and don't give a toss or scared, he sounds the second so you have to be his strong leader. Clicker training could also help to engage his brain and reward good behaviour.


I certainly wouldn't be lunging a 2 1/2 yr old. I would give him some time to settle before trying to do much with him tbh.
 

paddi22

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i had one mare that was very disturbed when i got her, and i turned her away and it took about 6 weeks for her to settle in the field. I couldn't even get close to her for a month, she would just try and kick. Eventually she came up to feed and then accepted scratches. Then once i found her special scratching place, something clicked with her and from then on she was just 'my mare' and she is my favourite now. But it took that six weeks for her to be in the right frame of mind for me to work with her. They let you know when you can push them. I think if i'd tried to do anything with her before that it wouldn't have worked.

They need to have the moment click in their head when they say 'ok i'm not sure of this, but I trust you, so i'l try' and that varies for each horse.
 

MDB

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I would be keeping him out of my space entirely and working with him at arms length until he learns some respect on just the basics. Even just standing politely on the end of the lead rope, staying out of your space and giving you his focus and attention is a great place to begin. Have you looked at some of the Warwick Schiller videos on YouTube? He shows some great videos on how to manage horses like you describe. His videos helped me enormously when I was workng with my young bolshy filly and my PRE mare who used to be so badly herd bound.
 

paddy555

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i think the first post on your other thread sums it up, home bred, older lady, spoilt brat. I suspect you are also female.

He sounds identical to one youngster I bought as a 2yo. I was told the husband would load him which he did very well. Looking back I wondered why the wife didn't handle him. We got him home, we then found he walked through the stable door and over the handler with no thought to the handler (also female) he spent most of his third year on his hind legs, and his
passion was for grabbing with his teeth the first part of female anatomy he could reach. Being bitten there is painful! He may lead, or he may just pull the rope out of your hand, he may stop or perhaps he couldn't be arsed to.

After a few days of chaos I contacted the vendor and told them I suspected dad made him behave but mum let him get away with stuff. The whole story then came out and I hadn't asked the one question that wasn't on my list of horse purchase questions at the time. Was he bottle reared. Yes he was, not only that he had been ill as a foal and all the stable staff were female. They had saved his life but he had learnt to behave like a male chauvinistic pig. Females were to be walked over and he was the expert at it.

To a lesser degree could this be the case with Bailey? He has no respect for females and simply knows how to walk over them? The older lady spoilt him, he learnt that behaviour and learnt he was above females.

Mine had a happy ending as once I understand why I could find ways to deal with him. He is now 21 and I am still friends with his previous owners. If yours could have problems in a similar vein I would turn him away and let him settle in. If you have to handle him plan it well in advance and make sure you cover all areas that could potentially go wrong. Then when you want to start work make sure you are all set up with it, perhaps with some support, you understand exactly what you want and have the time to achieve it when no doubt he will walk all over you and the first few times will be difficult until he gets the message. I would also talk to the previous owner. I found that very helpful. After they told me everything that had happened to him it was easier to understand and work out a way forward. If you encourage the older lady to talk you may get insights as to what worked and what didn't, how he was spoilt etc.
 

Pc2003

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If he is living out then I would just do the absolute basics. Hay etc, quick scratch. Leave him a couple of weeks in a consistent environment and then slowly start to build bridges.
My 2 year old was pretty tricky at times for the first 6 weeks and he came to me well handled! Different home/friends and in my guys case different country so a lot to adapt to!!
 

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Bobbie is the loveliest, sweetest, gentlest pony I know. When she went to the breakers yard she was a prat for a fortnight and when she came home shes done the same, including at one point barging out of the stable, knocking me over and hightailing it round the yard like a lunatic. Moving really unsettles some of them. Give him time. Dont do too much with him but make sure what you do is firm but fair. And find someone local with a good reputation who is confident and capable with big young horses and book them to come and give you a hand. If nothing else it will show you some techniques you probably dont know about and will make you more confident with him, which will in turn make him more confident generally.

I think you might need a 3rd pony though. Some horses just wont settle if they are left, esp out in a field.
 

SatansLittleHelper

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Ok thank very much everyone. Some extremely valid points here, Ill try to answer a few of the questions etc.

First off, the "attitude" comment was a flippant one, I really do know he's stressed and confused for the most part. I don't really believe he's just being an arsehole, he's had his whole life flipped upside down in the last month, poor boy.
I have access to a professional and will seek help asap. I did speak to them as soon as I went to view Bailey and they were happy to help but are currently away from home.
Just to clarify, I'm not poking him but using the flat of my hand but I'm happy to use different methods.
I don't have a stable but I do have a feed time routine where horses come to the hardstanding and get tied up to eat.
Bailey is only turned out with one horse, which is a pain but unavoidable at the moment. I'm not sure if I can change this.
I'm currently trying to get hold of his original owner as I bought him through a 3rd party.
I knew I was going to have my work cut out but clearly I'm approching it all the wrong way :( I really want to do the best I can with him, and despite what my post may have people believe, I'm not in a rush....I have just had several people telling me to "crack on" with him etc.

So, having read the info and advice here, my plan would be to simply hang out in the field with him, with no pressure, while I poo pick etc. Head collar him and tie him while he has a "feed" (literally a handful of soaked fast fibre, handful of grass nuts and a handful of chaff). Maybe a little grooming if he seems receptive?? Does this sound like a fair plan?

The only thing I'm not sure about is how to deal with him being left in the field on his own?
 
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be positive

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If he is going to be left alone regularly and is getting stressed I think you risk him getting worse unless the other owner is prepared to work with you to allow it to be done little by little, I would be looking for a more suitable place to keep him for the next 12 months while he is maturing.
He will benefit far more from being in a stable herd than from being with just one, I would not expect such a young horse that has lived in the same home all it's life to be able to adjust to such a big change without getting stressed, he needs to be with another horse, ideally more than one, at all times so you can start to work on his confidence and this should have been considered before purchasing a youngster, he will improve but needs to be set up to succeed not set up to fail at such a crucial period in his short life.
 

PapaverFollis

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If I've learned one thing in nearly 30 years of horsing (and trust me I haven't learned all that much more than this as you can tell from all my stupid questions on here) it's that you should never listen to anyone who's best advice is "crack on"! Ignore them. Take your time. In fact take your horse's time!

I think you need to find him a plus one for the field if you possibly possibly can... I know it might not be possible but it would help matters very much I would think.
 

SatansLittleHelper

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Be Positive, he lived with his mother and then a different mare, he's never lived in a herd...this is why I didn't consider my set up to be an issue for him? I can certainly look into a companion pony to join the field?
 

Gloi

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Be Positive, he lived with his mother and then a different mare, he's never lived in a herd...this is why I didn't consider my set up to be an issue for him? I can certainly look into a companion pony to join the field?
Some time in a herd of young geldings would do his head a lot of good. Not just one or two, somewhere with a decent sized group of youngstock.
 

AmyMay

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Be Positive, he lived with his mother and then a different mare, he's never lived in a herd...this is why I didn't consider my set up to be an issue for him? I can certainly look into a companion pony to join the field?

But now in a new home you may find it an issue (are finding it an issue). It’s a big ask. If you can get him into a herd situation it would be ideal.
 
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