YO dilema about charges for schooling

Wagtail

Wagtail

Horse servant
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I charge £20 for schooling my liveries horses (same as for lessons). However, one livery cannot afford to pay me but really wants me to school her horse. Whilst my two have been off work I have occasionally ridden him because I really love riding him. He is my ideal type of horse to ride. The others are not a joy to ride. I school them as a job. They are not my type of horse to ride (love them on the ground) but they just are not enjoyable to ride. Naturally, I charge the normal fees. But trouble is, I really want to keep riding this other horse, and really bring him on, for my own enjoyment and because he is just like my own horses (that are out of action) to ride. How can I justify this? Owner keeps saying to me, to ride him whenever I want. I have got over the problem in the past by exchanging a few schooling sessions for her doing work around the yard, but I know that others would want to do that too. I have therefore not ridden him for quite a while because I need to be fair to all my liveries and treat them all equally. I guess if my mare continues to improve and can stand the work (am currently bringing her out of injury related retirement), the problem will go away as I will have my own pleasurable horse to ride.
 
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How can I justify this?
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I don't think you have to justify it at all. But if you feel you must - then your 'owner' is actually doing you the favour, by providing you with rather a nice horse to ride.

And if anyone decides to question you about it - you tell them that arrangements between yourself and your liveries is none of anyone else's business.
 
amymay said:
I don't think you have to justify it at all. But if you feel you must - then your 'owner' is actually doing you the favour, by providing you with rather a nice horse to ride.

And if anyone decides to question you about it - you tell them that arrangements between yourself and your liveries is none of anyone else's business.
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Thank you amymay. I guess I could say that he is on 'part loan' to me, as effectively he would be.
 
It does make it tricky with the other liveries. Can the horses owner be trusted to keep it to herself if you ride it for free? Or as you say 'part loan' with your donation being the exact same as your schooling charge?
 
Why do your other liveries need to know the financial arrangements you have with this horses owner? It is none of their business and there for as far as they will be concerned she is paying the same as them?
Our YO has different arrangements with all the liveries. I have no idea what the others get charged, and they have no idea what I get charged. Suits me fine as I just have basic livery and never ask for schooling or services from her, she finds this handy as she can pretty much leave me to get on with things, however some of the other liveries are a bit demanding and need lots of help or give short notice for services, I imagine they do get charged for this as often it causes a disruption to her very busy day.
 
You don't have to justify it. The other liveries should never know that this one isn't being charged! If your livery is a decent person she will keep this to herself.

I think the key phrase in there is 'you enjoy it' I wouldn't charge for doing something I seen as an oppertunity for me!

I teach 2 young sisters who share a pony(14.2hh connie). They let me ride him out whenever they don't, and I enjoy having fun something to hack out. In return, I'll give him a quick school before we go out as he's only 6, and I don't charge them for lessons. We're both getting something out the arrangement. None of my other clients need know, its my time and I'll how I use it / am paid for it is my choice.

You enjoy riding this horse, its giving you something to ride, and the owner is getting something out of it too. If any one asks, its on part loan to you as you like it so much. You could try riding it outside 'work' hours to make it seem less businessy?

As for owner, instead of jobs around the yard, could she maybe help you out on the odd holiday cover, or do say admin jobs etc so its not as obvious?

Main thing is you enjoy riding this horse, its not a chore, or a job to you, so it need not be charged as one. As long as the owner appreciates it (and maybe provides you with wine and chocolates!)
 
When I worked on a riding school and large livery yard, I was approached by a lady who had a big powerful mare lots of potential but naughty and scared the owner and some nasty throws to some really good riders. The problem was she couldn't afford the cash to have me school her. I had 3 horses and worked full time on yard plus I really really liked the mare. I decided that I would ride the mare and the lady done my horses stable chores. None of the liveries ever questioned it and were not aware that she didn't pay me in cash.
You don't have to justify it at all if you want to ride the horse do it :)
 
Thanks all. I think it is because one livery (who pays me to ride her horse twice a week) once had a conversation with the owner of the horse I like to ride and she had said that she wished she could afford to pay me to rider her horse, especially as she was only managing to get up twice a week or so and he was getting unfit. So she knows that the livery cannot afford to pay me and as she has had her own financial problems lately, I would find it hard to justify it to her if she questioned it. Maybe the way to do it is to just ride this horse when I know she will not be around. But as she is here most days for quite a long time it is rather difficult.
 
She doesn't habe to know she's not paying you. I would say to the owner that yiu would be willing to part loan and you ride the horse and she doesn't pay for the service. End of.

Ticks all the boxes and if other liveries get nosey then its covered.
 
I'd tell people that since you have nothing to ride you've taken this horse on part loan. Have an agreement drawn up with the owner so its official. It's no different to you taking any other horse on part loan, bringing it to your yard then riding it every day. Lots of part loans don't have a financial element to it, not that that's anyone else's business anyway. The horses owner really shouldn't have told the other owner that she doesn't pay, it was tactless of her, she could have sympathised without revealing her own situation. If you had any other horse on loan you'd ride whenever it suits you and not try to avoid someone so I'd treat this horse the same. You seem to be a nice YO with a decent yard. If one livery takes offence at your arrangements with another then they're free to leave and I'm sure you'd soon fill the space.
 
Thanks, yes I do have a couple of peole waiting for a space, though I wouldn't want to piss anyone off so they leave. But I should be able to choose to ride a horse for free if I like. After all, I would be doing it for my own pleasure rather than a job.
 
I think it is awkward and you want to keep the peace and not be seen to have favorites. Can you say you are schooling the horse because you might be competing it? Even if you don't it puts the schooling on a different level to work, owner might be up for you competing it anyway.
 
siennamum said:
I think it is awkward and you want to keep the peace and not be seen to have favorites. Can you say you are schooling the horse because you might be competing it? Even if you don't it puts the schooling on a different level to work, owner might be up for you competing it anyway.
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The main problem is that my other livery would want me to compete her horse too, and therefore not charge her! So far I have avoided it and encouraged her to compete it herself. She has been offering hers for me to ride whenever I want too, bless her. Trouble is I really don't like riding her horse. :o
 
Mmmmm... you obviously have a 'heart' and are sensitive to what your other liveries may percieve when/if they see you riding this horse,...nowt wrong with that in my eyes and you'll sleep better if you've got a 'valid answer' when and if question by your other liveries too if they come asking,....which they will, coz liveries talk!!

From what i've read, i do agree to a certain extent that it really is 'your call' on who's horse you ride, nobody's business other than yours and the livery in question etc,..but in essence you may perhaps feel you have a duty (in a heartfelt way of course!) to give your liveries a decent explanation as to why you're riding this horse.

All that said above,..... my solution to this would be the same as a couple of others that have mentioned it and that is to 'part loan' this livery's horse, while your's on the road to recovery!! Quite believable and infact,...pretty much true i guess, it's just that no money is exchanging hands!!
 
I think it's a breath of fresh air to have a YO who actually cares! :)

Most I know would just say sod it- my yard, my rules :D

I think the part loan agreement would be the best option to keep the peace- you don't want to upset people and they stop asking you to school there's as you will then be out of pocket!
 
amymay said:
I don't think you have to justify it at all. But if you feel you must - then your 'owner' is actually doing you the favour, by providing you with rather a nice horse to ride.

And if anyone decides to question you about it - you tell them that arrangements between yourself and your liveries is none of anyone else's business.
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If you enjoy riding it then carry on.
Why should the other liveries know she isn't paying the same rates? I'd ask her to keep quiet on it as it's not the norm and anyone else enquiring can keep their nose out.

Presumably you have insurance covering schooling liveries horses? I'd check this to make sure you're covered as you're on someone elses horse without money changing hands as they're awful for finding loopholes. The arrangement has sod all to do with anyone else though.

Pan
 
Tricky one... I know as a livery, I am not impressed when I know someone else is getting "preferential" treatment - afterall we all pay the same money.
 
It is no one else's business but as a livery if i found out i would not be happy at all. There cannot be one rule for one and one rule for another that is a fast track road to a non harmonious yard. Things need to be kept simple and sure no grey areas with liveries.
 
Hmmmm I have to disagree with the majority here.

It isn't fair to have favourites on a yard and charging one livery for something but not another will at least breed some unhappiness and could potentially dent your repuation. Of which I'm sure you have a good one as you sound genuinely concerned about your liveries.


There is nothing wrong with enjoying a ride as it is working for both you and the livery, but I do think making it "official" with a part loan, so he is at least part yours, would keep your other liveries happier :)
 
Part loan is a good idea, the others can offer theirs for part loan if they like but why would you want two when you also have your out of work horses to think about? Anyway if you get into conversation about it you can say you really like that particular horse, doesn't mean to say you don't like any of theirs!
 
Have a quick chat with the owner, I'm guessing she knows you like riding her horse, and just say if any one asks your part loaning the horse.

I ride ponies for free if I like the pony and owner and its not far away mainly as I enjoy seeing them progress and getting them to the point that the child is happy on them again. It helps me as a rider and I dont feel I have the needed qualifications or experiance to charge yet.
 
I agree about part loaning/sharing. I wouldn't be happy knowing I pay for a service that others liveries get free on the yard. However, if you are part loaning, it's different. It also means that you don't school specifically when the owner asks you but according to the loan arrangements and if you feel like hacking out instead of schooling you should be able to do that as well.
 
I also like the part-loan idea, which is fair enough as your own horses aren't rideable at the moment.

Otherwise, it isn't very fair, in my mind, to say, "It costs livery X £20 for me to ride her horse, as I don't like the horse very much, but it costs livery Y £0 for the same service, because I do like her horse." Most yards that provide schooling seem to offer a flat rate and I would imagine that anyone who wants the YO to school their horse pays it. I know I'd be a bit upset if I were in livery X's shoes and somehow found out that livery Y wasn't paying that rate, just because the YO liked her horse better than she liked mine.
 
It is a tricky situation. On one hand being absolutely fair and consistent across liveries is pretty essential to a smooth running and happy yard.

On the other hand I completely 'get' the riding a particular horse for pleasure and the riding any horse for work scenario.

Although technically it is no one elses business, to me the only thing that you can do in this situation is to be completely open and honest with all your liveries, I wouldn't dress it up as a part loan, liveries talk and aren't stupid they'll be more annoyed at a fob off story.

I'd probably sit down with your other livery whose horse you school and explain that this particular horse you are riding is just your type and in your mind you have separated out the agreement from business to pleasure, and for that reason you aren't charging the owner. Unfortunately you don't have the time, energy or finance to offer that to every horse on the yard. You'll have to say it sensitively to make sure you don't infer you hate riding their horse, but any sane person usually just appreciates the truth straight from the horses mouth so to speak.
 
I'd also go against the grain here because mixing business and pleasure can cause problems further down the line.
Being fair to all and keeping personal preferences out of it, helps to keep the yard a happy place.

I know you wouldn't dream of being tactless, but I always think its a shame when instructors remark about how they don't enjoy riding someone's horse. While we all know people have preferences, it must be awful to find out that A's much loved horse is a chore to ride, while B's is so great, the instructor will ride it for free. These things have a way of getting out even if you don't say so.

Although the owner of the nice horse is known to be struggling financially, sometimes other liveries maybe too but are too proud and independent to say so. Lets face it, owning horses for most people is a juggling act between bill paying and having a few extra luxuries.

So basically, I'd say, treat all liveries equally, (apart from when its a matter of urgency).
 
I agree you need to treat them all equally. I would just do a sharers contract (BHS have samples) with the owner that says she is responsible for all bills and chores, and you school the horse x times a week.
 
Can't you carry on whereby said owner helps out in return for you working the horse? Cos have to agree, if was there I would find that a little hard to stomach. Appreciate it's your yard but charging to ride one and not the other just does not seem fair. Otherwise go the part loan route, keep it above board and then everyone will be happy!

My YO is also a friend and I know would always try to help me out if I was stuck. However, I do try to play fair and pay her after lessons, on time etc as do the others. I would not expect something for nothing though.
 
Thanks everyone. I think that if I am to continue riding this horse then I would have to make it official with a part loan agreement. It's a small yard and they all talk and it is bound to get out otherwise sooner or later. Only problem is, that along the line I know that one of my other liveries who does try to run my yard at times, will want me to part loan hers. But I'll have to cross that road when I get to it.
 
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