YO's what do you put in a livery contract?

flaxen

flaxen

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We have been asked by a family friend if we would rent out 2 empty wooden stables that are attched to a small paddock for a few months. We dont use these, they are just sat empty. We dont have liveries as they are a pita and we dont want just anybody wandering round the farm.

The stables dont have any electric, storage etc and we wouldnt be connecting them to any.

My fil was thinking along the lines of £30 pr week for the pair of stables plus buying hay and straw on top from us.

He has asked me to draw up a contract for them.

I have said about payment in advance for the stables then hay and straw at the end of the month added on to the next mths livery. Regarding hay and straw, my fil was going to sell them a large bale of hay and staw and just sit it outside but it will make a mess and get wet, so I suggested that they use what I have in my spare stable in my barn, that way I can keep note of what they use so nothing goes walkies, they would also have last yrs hay which is different to what mine eat.

We were going to say that its purely diy but if they cant get due to bad weather/ snow then Id be happy to feed, hay, water, skip out but they would be charged for it. They wouldnt be allowed up before 6/6.30am and be finished no later than 6.30pm ( although if they need outside of this time due to show etc then to ask permission ) and they are to provide their own feed, though would give them a corner of my feed room on the condition that my horses are not disturbed. They will not be allowed access to the rest of the farm, they are here to do their horses only and they are to keep their tack at home, their mucking out is to be tipped on the floor next to a cattle pen and forked over the gate and swept up ( cant allow them access to pen as we have a bull in it ) and it wouldnt be safe for them to enter, how ever if im out on the yard I would tip it for them.

Can you think of anything else that would need to be put in, other than their horse are insured for public liability. Many thanks
 
Have you spoken to them about the 6.30pm off the yard ? - before you spend ages doing anything else I would get this clarified first, that is a very early time for some one on DIY to be off your property on a regular basis.
 
"tbh 6.30pm would be too early to be chucked off the yard?!

7/8pm is more reasonable - summer more like 9pm!"

Our farm is finished for the day by 5.30pm so having people wandering around after this time is likely to upset our cattle and our working dogs who live outside are not used to strangers walking around and as my baby goes to bed at that time I dont want her being disturbed by the collies barking at people.

I dont think they would be here in summer, its a short term agreement as they dont have any turnout.
 
To be honest - by reading into your post I really wouldn't bother - you sound like you begrudge them being there before they have even got there and you're already accusing them of having the ability to steal hay off you and snooping around your property disturbing your horses. I can understand these being real concerns and yes I have been on yards where people have nicked stuff and been a general pita but being a livery who has always paid on time (for everything I've had), kept everywhere tidy and generally tried to be as good a livery as I can I wouldn't want to be somewhere someone didn't want me. In fact I have just been somewhere where I felt they had no choice but to have liveries but resented us greatly - I lasted 3 months - I'm paying money for a service and I'm meant to enjoy it.

If you really don't need to hire it out then don't - or you will need to be much more relaxed IMHO.
 
Im not already accusing them of stealing, but having been on yards my self where I have seen other people use more than they pay for means that giving them free access to the hay barn when the horses will be in 24/7 means that we may lose money on hay.

Its also a health and safety concern letting them have free access, our hay sheds arent lit and I wouldnt want them falling and not being found til next day. My horses are done and put to bed by 4.30pm and get a chk at 11pm when the cows due to calf get a check too.

I most likely would never see these people as Im done and back in the house getting ready for work by 6.30am and the stables they would be using arent on the yard, they are down the drive, my horses would only really hear them if they went to the far end of their field and when I rode out.

As we often have unwelcome visitors paying a visit on a night I wouldnt want anyone to get hurt or questioned by the police as they often do spot chks.
 
I would check the times with them, as having kept mine at an unlit field for many years, I rarely went down within the times you mention, as I had to be at work earlier, and often didn't finish till later. In your situation, I wouldn't bother, as with the attitude you are taking regarding pretty much anything, you are almost bound to lose friends over this. Especially as at that price for those facilities, you aren't exactly doing it at mates rates!
 
Personally I think you're overthinking it. I would offer them rental of the field (not sure where you are but I am in the midlands and pay less for better) allow them to throw up a 6x8 shed for storage and leave them to it

Treat it as renting a paddock not as a livery arrangement

If the only access to the land is via your yard I think you'll have a real problem with deciding their times of access though
 
zaminda said:
I would check the times with them, as having kept mine at an unlit field for many years, I rarely went down within the times you mention, as I had to be at work earlier, and often didn't finish till later. In your situation, I wouldn't bother, as with the attitude you are taking regarding pretty much anything, you are almost bound to lose friends over this. Especially as at that price for those facilities, you aren't exactly doing it at mates rates!
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Agree with this. Also are they going to want to ride? If so can they use your land for this?

Why not charge them more and offer full livery if its not for long
 
Just re-read it. If you take the hay storage out of the equation it sounds like they don't have to go up to the farmyard? Offer to drop hay and straw down the drive weekly perhaps (IF they want to buy from you) then it's down to them to store it
 
Nash2 said:
To be honest - by reading into your post I really wouldn't bother - you sound like you begrudge them being there before they have even got there and you're already accusing them of having the ability to steal hay off you and snooping around your property disturbing your horses. I can understand these being real concerns and yes I have been on yards where people have nicked stuff and been a general pita but being a livery who has always paid on time (for everything I've had), kept everywhere tidy and generally tried to be as good a livery as I can I wouldn't want to be somewhere someone didn't want me. In fact I have just been somewhere where I felt they had no choice but to have liveries but resented us greatly - I lasted 3 months - I'm paying money for a service and I'm meant to enjoy it.

If you really don't need to hire it out then don't - or you will need to be much more relaxed IMHO.
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I'm afraid I agree with this entirely. I would hate for my liveries to feel unwelcome.
 
Starzaan said:
I'm afraid I agree with this entirely. I would hate for my liveries to feel unwelcome.
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I also agree I'm afraid - appreciate you have a routine that you don't want disturbed but seems like an awful lot of rules for a few months. I would just let them have the field and shelter and, as someone else said, let them chuck up a temporary shed for storage and let them get on with it.
 
I agree with the above that it does sound like more effort than it's worth and I know from bitter personal experience that this type of arrangement is a very good way to end a family friendship!
If you do go ahead, some things to think of are damage to your property (fencing, stable etc. the pita ponies I had here broke rails in my lovely post and rail and chewed the field shelter which their owner considered general wear and tear (I did not ! - my boys have never broken a rail in 5 years! ) I'd recommend taking a deposit for this kind of thing returnable if they leave the field in the condition they found it.
What are your views on poo picking? Will you just harrow after they are gone? If you expect muck cleared make that very clear, how often etc. and charge them for doing it if it's not done (put your hourly rate in the contract)
Do you want the horses wormed before they arrive/ done by you so you really know it has been done (or is it a paddock you don't ever use for your own?)
What about people other than them coming up to do/check ponies? - I found all sorts of random people she'd sent here without telling me!!!
Do you have a limit on how may horses can be on the field? If so make that clear

In all honesty for a few £100 I just wouldn't bother - your fiendship will be better off without the grief!
 
I did this years ago, but from the other side. A friend of my dad's had land going to waste and so my dad asked if he'd consider renting it to my friend and I to help us out and get him some extra cash. One barn, two stables and about 5 acres, beautiful area, no fencing, no school, no electric and above ground water pipes :eek: £20 a month for the lot, but he hated us being there! We kept it clean and tidy, paid in advance every time, but everything we did annoyed him. It was awful.

In the end we gave notice and his wife asked why so we politely explained we felt unwelcome and restricted and she agreed he was a fussy old whatsit who didn't want us there but thought he had to because of my dad.

I'd suggest if you really don't want them there then it's best to say so before you run into difficulties. 6.30 in the evening is way too early to insist people leave by and will probably put them off anyway.
 
Oh forgot, do you have a specific end date? - put that in the contract - I initially agreed to a 'few weeks' while she moved house, when she arrived she was talking about the whole summer and I stupidly forgot to correct her!

Also what is one of the horses is ill, one of the ponies here arrived hopping lame with laminitis (I'm not a vet but it was pretty clear!) we argued for weeks about getting the vet - eventually she did and then ignored the vets advice (deep bed, soaked hay - all the ususal stuff) because bedding wasn't worth it for a few weeks and she didn't have time for the rest - she didn't even give the pony the bute the vet left because (supprisingly) mixed in a bucket with a handful of hay!!! the pony didn't eat it!

Have something in the contract that allows you to call the vet at their expense if in your sole opinion the horse is suffering in any way

Oh and finally include in contract that they must be contactable at all times, mine 'lost' her phone and didn't replace it for 3 weeks so whenever there was a problem with the ponies (ie they escaped which happened almost every day because they went stright through fencing!) I had to go out in the rain and deal with it!!!!

Can you tell I didn't enjoy the experience !!!
 
I appreciate it is your home, and you have your routine, but I would never be able to be on a yard I had to be off of by 6.30pm every evening. What if they want to do a late check as you do for yours? Would you do this, included in the livery price? (I don't see that you could charge extra for this if they would want to do it themselves but you won't let them on the yard)

I think either politely say no, you are not wanting to rent them out, or rent them the paddock and leave them to it.
 
All I can say is 'I wouldn't be your family friend for long'. You obviously don't trust or think very much of these people, so advise them to look elsewhere instead of making them pay to be mistrusted and watched by a so called friend!!!

I find this attitude disgusting and hate to think how you would treat people who were not family friends, the mind boggles with the attitude of, we want your money but don't want you around, what a scary world we live in! IMHO
 
I wouldn't be too harsh on the OP, I did a 'friend' a favour and you wouldn't believe the lies she told me and damage her ponies did - for which she didn't even apologise - let along attempt to put right not to mention the stress she caused when she went awol for a couple of weeks when one was very lame!

I can really see the OP's position of trying to protect herself even if it is a friend. If you don't set out the rules at the start she'd end up in my position, no friend and well out of pocket!
OP is not a livery yard and has been approached by someone (she's not advertised), her land, her home and if she wants someone off by 6.30 then her rules. As long as she's straight with her friend from the start it's entirely their decision whether they want to pay what she's asking and agree to the rules

If someone asked me now I would have a list of rules as long as two arms and be v expensive and want a large deposit - if they then chose to go somewhere else - GREAT
 
robden said:
All I can say is 'I wouldn't be your family friend for long'. You obviously don't trust or think very much of these people, so advise them to look elsewhere instead of making them pay to be mistrusted and watched by a so called friend!!!

I find this attitude disgusting and hate to think how you would treat people who were not family friends, the mind boggles with the attitude of, we want your money but don't want you around, what a scary world we live in! IMHO
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God, thats rather harsh! This isnt just a few stables connected to a residential house that the OP is talking about. Its connected to a working farm. I used to livery on a cow far/livery yard, but it was ok as more horses then cows and he was most likely insured for that kinda use. OP will no doubt have insurance for a farm, not a livery.

Its not that she doesnt trust them, its that there is what sounds like a routine in place that works and the cows are used to............why should they be upset in order to do a favor? OP is being wise considering the safety of these folk as well.
If someone came on and was like "I had an accident at a stables, YO no lighting in hay barn and I fell broke my leg" What would we be telling them to do? Check YO had adequate insurance and ask why didn't they make it all nice and safe for them etc etc.

We have 2 stables and a field at my dads, and we do if needed let neighbours use it for their ponies to rest their fields, however as access to this involves at shorted route entering his garden it is an invasion of his privacy and would drive him potty if he didnt know when folk would be about!

Yes OP does sound like she doesn't want to do it really, but as a FRIEND she is considering it. But why should it inconvenience her family and their livelyhood?!?!
 
TBH it comes across very clear they are not wanted there, for friendships sake i would decline the offer.... Your rules are your rules to fit your life not theirs...and just not practical imho.
 
Sorry, i missed typed, its someone the friend/ aquaintance knows who wants to use the stables. It has a 1.5/2 acre paddock with it that is wet. I dont use these for my horses as its too wet and the fencing isnt great, its stock fencing and pretty old. They did say that they didnt want to use the field. If they wanted to use the field they would have to electric fence the perimeter as its designed for cattle, they also wouldnt have to poo pick if they didnt want to as we would just harrow it and put the cattle and sheep in there to tidy it up after they left.

I dont know whether they would be able to put a storage shed up, due to the location of where they are any defra officials coming to visit in regards to our other business would be able to see it.

As long as they were neat and tidy ( as if they arent that will have an impact on us ) and they are trustworthy and pay on time, look after their horses they will be left to it. I will only get involved if I am concerned for the horses welfare. ( the last people who had the field have trashed it, they also never had the farrier out and the horses only got hay when i threw our crappy stuff over the gate - not great but better than nothing and the old horse was skin and bone, i got a rug for him and despite informing her he was a welfare issue she didnt have him pts and put him through another winter- I found him dead in the field one day, they hadnt even noticed )

I am more than happy checking their horses last thing but that would be it.

Its not a long term agreement and is only to help them out til spring time as where they are at livery currently is a "rescue place " and is being investigated by the rspca and has had 2 ponies removed already.

There is no riding allowed on our land, even I only ride in my horses field in summer and as our land is clay its wet and mine spend most of the winter turned out in a woodchip play pen with 1 day a week in the field.

I used to pay £25 a wk per stable for diy which was meant to include hay and bedding but ended up having to take it myself as they never had any, my stables had water running through them when it rained and the lights were always broken, the water froze in winter and I ended up taking it from home.

At £30 per wk for 2 I didnt think it was too bad, the stables are dry and even in snow and freezing temps they will have water.
 
flaxen said:
Sorry, i missed typed, its someone the friend/ aquaintance knows who wants to use the stables. It has a 1.5/2 acre paddock with it that is wet. I dont use these for my horses as its too wet and the fencing isnt great, its stock fencing and pretty old. They did say that they didnt want to use the field. If they wanted to use the field they would have to electric fence the perimeter as its designed for cattle, they also wouldnt have to poo pick if they didnt want to as we would just harrow it and put the cattle and sheep in there to tidy it up after they left.

I dont know whether they would be able to put a storage shed up, due to the location of where they are any defra officials coming to visit in regards to our other business would be able to see it.

As long as they were neat and tidy ( as if they arent that will have an impact on us ) and they are trustworthy and pay on time, look after their horses they will be left to it. I will only get involved if I am concerned for the horses welfare. ( the last people who had the field have trashed it, they also never had the farrier out and the horses only got hay when i threw our crappy stuff over the gate - not great but better than nothing and the old horse was skin and bone, i got a rug for him and despite informing her he was a welfare issue she didnt have him pts and put him through another winter- I found him dead in the field one day, they hadnt even noticed )

I am more than happy checking their horses last thing but that would be it.

Its not a long term agreement and is only to help them out til spring time as where they are at livery currently is a "rescue place " and is being investigated by the rspca and has had 2 ponies removed already.

There is no riding allowed on our land, even I only ride in my horses field in summer and as our land is clay its wet and mine spend most of the winter turned out in a woodchip play pen with 1 day a week in the field.

I used to pay £25 a wk per stable for diy which was meant to include hay and bedding but ended up having to take it myself as they never had any, my stables had water running through them when it rained and the lights were always broken, the water froze in winter and I ended up taking it from home.

At £30 per wk for 2 I didnt think it was too bad, the stables are dry and even in snow and freezing temps they will have water.
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Now you've said this OP, it makes a bit more sense why you're being careful- the fact that you don't know them, and have had a bad expereience before. That said, I don't really see the benefit to you- not much money and it sounds still like you don't want them there (nothing wrong with that) tbh, I'd probably just tell them no, sorry, and keep it for yourself.
 
Flaxen, if it's a friend of a friend I'd be even more cautious (esp. given your prior bad experience), certainly I'd want to check their public liability if the fencing isn't good. I'm not sure who would be liable if they got loose from your land and caused a traffic accident?

Set out all your terms in a contract, including the price you deem is fair and let them decide whether the arrangement is appropriate for them.
 
At the end of the day, op isn't doing it as a favour, she is charging money so should be happy to provide the service her 'friend' is paying for. Just my HO
 
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