YOs, would you call vet out for a livery without owner's permiss

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booandellie

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Ordinarily this is something i would never do and if there was an issue i would discuss it with my livery and they would get the vet themselves _ BUT, this livery is inexperienced, first pony for kids blah blah that i inherited when pony was sold on. From the start there have been problems with caring for the pony properly and i am constantly advising ( often ignored) and often checking to make sure everything is done for the pony however they keep neglecting her feet despite me reminding them she is overdue, this has resulted in repeated attacks of lami and the poor pony has now been lame for 2 weeks after they shod her. Once again i asked them to contact the vet, keep her in etc to which she replied that the vet said she was just foot sore from new shoes, no danylon needed and to turn out during the day instead of night. This sounded odd so i spoke to vet who said she didn't say the pony had an unusual gait or was lame and that they had certainly not advised swapping turnout. I feel that the livery is playing me to get her pony out during the day, and crucially ignoring the pony's suffering. I am now considering having the vet out at my own expense and giving them the report and hope they action the advice! Am i out of order? Would you do the same in my shoes? Thanks for reading and any opinions gratefully recieved!
 
If you're happy to meet the cost I think I would in your shoes. Best case scenario is they listen to your and the vet's advice and the worst is they are so angry they up and leave. No help to the poor pony, sadly, but if that doesn't make them take proper care of him, nothing will and at least they would be someone else's problem.

You also have a duty of care so you are just taking that duty seriously. Is there anything in their contract allowing you to seek veterinary care in an emergency? I would argue that a lame pony for 2 weeks and owners doing nothing constitutes an emergency.

You sound like a lovely caring livery owner. I'd be grateful if you owned my yard.
 
Problem with this is how it will sit with the Vet. Ordinarily a Vet will not come out to treat an animal unless it is on the owner's say so. May be a different scenario if the horse was abandoned.
 
Will a vet intervene in a non emergency situation without the owners permission?!

Whilst I appreciate you have the very best of intentions I'm not sure this is the way to go, I would tackle the family again and try and get them on your side.
 
Thankyou, the contract states that if i cannot contact them and pony or horse needs treatment in my opinion then i am within my rights to call vets at their expense etc but doesn't state i can do it in a non emergency situation . I have asked the vets if they can give her a call to enquire how she is getting on and for them to suggest a call out however if she doesn't take them up on this i will get them out regardless. I am very fond of the pony and all my liveries are loved like they were my own so it is very hard to see them suffer for no good reason other than ignorance.
 
This is a difficult one. I would let the owner know that you checked with the vet because what she told you about swapping turnout seemed odd. Then if the pony is still lame tell them that they must get the vet out or be in breach of the Animal Welfare Act (2006) which as Defra says "...Breach of a provision of the Code is not an offence in itself, but if proceedings are brought against you for a welfare offence the Court will look at whether or not you have complied with the Code in deciding whether you have committed an offence. You should not cause any unnecessary suffering to your animal; this could constitute a serious offence under the Act."

If they refuse, ask them to leave.
 
thankyou for replies, the vet said she would speak to the partners given the circumstances that owner is not experienced to realise the severity of the problem
 
Yes.

Like most YO's, I had that written in the contract with my owners.

In emergencies (I consider colic, bleeding out, bits of body hanging off, broken legs emergencies) if I couldn't contact them I had permission to call the vet, also that the Vet had their written permission to pts if he deemed necessary (broken limbs etc)

Fortunately mostly incidents were minor wounds that just needed a bit of needlework and for those I did the necessary then informed the owner that their horse needed Veterinary attention (I didn't give them an option) then called the Vet. In the time I had the yard every single emergency I had was for one of my own horses :(

Most of my owners were happy with this as they were first time horse owners, and basically, in the words of one couple "we know diddly squat, we pay you to know what to do and when to do it"

In your case I would give them an ultimatum - get the Vet/Farrier here pronto, or I will (at your expense) OR leave the yard !
 
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Thankyou bluedanube, i will try again but apparantly she is fed up with me and other liveries advising vet all the time and that it would be too costly to keep calling them out everytime she is lame but i will give it one last go. I would gladly see her go but fear the pony would not be looked after the same without us all keeping an eye on her. And i fully accept i would be liable for the bill
 
booandellie said:
Thankyou bluedanube, i will try again but apparantly she is fed up with me and other liveries advising vet all the time and that it would be too costly to keep calling them out everytime she is lame but i will give it one last go. I would gladly see her go but fear the pony would not be looked after the same without us all keeping an eye on her. And i fully accept i would be liable for the bill
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If you have a local BHS welfare officer, they might be happy to come round for a chat with this owner?
The officers mostly can't *DO* anything, but might be able to make the right noises to kickstart the situation from an unbiased perspective?
 
Years ago, there was a boarder at the barn I stayed at who didn't "believe in" modern veterinary medicine. Her horse colicked and she refused to call the vet. The vet would not come out when the horse's owner was actively refusing treatment, no matter how much the barn owner wanted him to. The barn owner stated that she would not have a suffering horse on her property; either the owner called the vet *right now* or she put the horse in a trailer and removed it from the barn. Guess what? The owner found her faith in modern medicine.

You may have to issue a clear ultimatum.
 
Enfys you are probably right but i find confrontation awkward and usually that is a VERY last resort. I had considered ringing a welfare organisation and telling her someone must have reported it but i guess that is weakness on my part and i would be better to sort it out myself
 
Stop being so nice !!

If you are the yard owner then your position is different to those of the other liveries. Tell her outright that as yard owner you expect to be kept informed of ongoing health and veterinary advice for horses on your yard.

Explain your duty of care to animals on your yard and insist that she either calls the vet or finds somewhere else to keep her pony.

If it is that costly then she must be having them a lot which would imply that is her lack of care that is causing the issues or else the pony has an underlying problem that has not been addressed. Either way she needs to take responsibility for this.
 
We've experienced similar sadly on my yard. The vets and farrier had to get very tough with the owner, they at one point nearly refused to treat her unless she took notice. Basically... horse with lami, owner refused to accept so was turning out... telling the vet she wasnt). As the YO i kept the vets fully in the loop about what turnout the mare was having and when. they did eventually get through to her but it took a lot of strong words from the vets, me (YO), fellow liveries and the farrier!
If you can work in partnership with the vets.... what about them coming down to see another horse and 'noticing' the horse isnt right when there. You can then contact the owner and say the vets here to see (whatever other horse) and they have notice your pony and ARE going to have a look whilst they are here. (again, we once had a vet out and a pony started to look colicy so they obviously saw that horse then and there).
I also think maybe a chat from a welfare officer could help them see sense. I would really really push for THEM to get the vet though so you are avoiding any drama of them being annoyed you got the vet. But if you have to, get the vet yourself.
 
What would you be hoping/expecting the vet to say ? Regardless of what he does the owners can ignore any advice and carry on regardless and your situation with them could be worse as it's quite a drastic step to take. I would talk to them instead and explain why you are worried and maybe try and get the farrier to suggest the same treatment as you do. He's seen the pony recently, what's his take on the situation ?
 
Yes I would call the vet without contacting the owners but only in an emergency, the vets will not attend if you call them out for someones horse against the owners will, whether you pay the bill or not, in fact if the owners do not want you discussing the case with the vet then they can stop that happening as well, so the vet needs to be careful as they will be the ones in trouble if they come out and and look at the pony with you involved against the owners wishes.
That said in this case someone needs to do something and it is probably the vet that needs to be tougher and explain far more clearly what the consequences will be, if the owners are ignoring everything then you need to either give notice or come to an arrangement where you do take more control with all of the care, it may mean you have to do a bit more but for peace of mind I would rather take over and not charge a full rate rather than let the pony suffer if they are not doing enough.
 
On a very slightly different note I am staggered the vet discussed the clients ponies treatment with you even as the YO....they have a confidentiality code they are bound by....
 
booandellie said:
Enfys you are probably right but i find confrontation awkward and usually that is a VERY last resort. I had considered ringing a welfare organisation and telling her someone must have reported it but i guess that is weakness on my part and i would be better to sort it out myself
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You have to, at the very least as yard owner you have a duty of care, and not allowing animal access to veterinary treatment the owners are also in the wrong. Also at the end of the day there is a pony involved in all this who is suffering, lami is horrible. You either tell them to look after the pony properly or leave or you get a welfare organisation involved - BHS will advise owners (although they will also do other things like insist pony is kept at registered livery to ensure care - we had a lami case at my RS under these circumstances). They are also more used to dealing with these sorts of situations than yourself and less personally involved I guess.
 
If your happy to foot the vets bill I don't see a problem with it. Obviously you have a duty of care under the animal welfare act (?) and if the vet is happy to come and look at the horse can't see how anyone can complain?
 
It doesn't bode well that they're happy to leave pony lame like that and not restrict her grazing, I think as long as you're prepared to foot the bill should they refuse to, you should get a vet out. Two weeks in with no kind of restriction God knows what sort of damage has been done to her feet.
 
I think you have to give an ultimatum.

Your legally responsible for the horses welfare NOT the vet, the vets do not have to discuss a case with you, maybe you could contact BHS for advice, but I am afraid I would be telling them it is my way or the highway-I would not pay a vets bill for someones elses horse but I would not leave it to suffer either-it is not a good look for your yard and if I was another livery I would report the situation and leave-you are putting yourself at risk by being too nice to the people and allowing the pony to suffer
 
I think you do need to insist she respects your position as YO.

A while ago we called the vet as horse had scabby bits on head (we sent photo and described) vet said it was probably ringworm and told us what to do. Yard owner said they would prefer we had actual visit as they wanted to know for sure as well as to know what to do to try and prevent spreading.

So we had the visit which cost us but it put the yard owners mind at rest.

If you are running a good yard people will want to stay and should be prepared to work with you. If this person is not then do you really want them or need them on your yard ?
 
This is a welfare issue as the horse is in pain. Contact World Horse Welfare and they will send out one of their local inspectors to take a look at the horse. They will then contact the owner and advise them of their obligations.
If you are concerned about a horse in the UK, please call our free phone Welfare Hotline on 08000 480180 between 8 am and 5.30 pm, Monday to Friday.

This is a charitable service. Unfortunately we are unable to answer calls over the weekend, but if you leave a voicemail message we will return your call as soon as possible.

When you call, you will speak to someone who has a good knowledge, both of horses and the relevant legislation, and all calls are dealt with in the strictest confidence.

We prefer to take welfare reports over the telephone rather than by email, as this allows us to ask any questions we need in order to get the full picture of the situation - essential for assessing urgency. It also allows us to make sure we know exactly where the horses are.

We understand callers’ concerns about remaining anonymous, and this can be assured, but speaking to someone rather than reading an email or listening to an anonymous voicemail message ensures the horses can be visited if necessary – it may not be possible for us to find the horses from the information left on a message.

We have a small but experienced team answering the welfare line, so please bear with us if you have difficulty getting through. We have an answerphone system in place to allow us to deal with as many calls as possible, so if your call isn’t answered immediately please leave a message and we promise to get back to you – we aim to return all welfare calls on the same working day. When leaving a message, please state your phone number clearly and repeat it – this is particularly important if you’re calling from a mobile as it may be a bad line.
- See more at: http://www.worldhorsewelfare.org/Concerned-about-a-horse#sthash.LsXLDqOH.dpuf
 
Neglecting the feet would not result in laminitis, though it could result in other painful conditions. If the pony is suffering from laminitis, then I would be looking into its other management issues, its weight and diet etc. Regarding calling the vet, then I would think you are within your rights to do so but I would suggest the owner does it first. You have a duty of care for all horses in your care. If there was a real emergency such as severe colic or broken leg, then I would expect a YO to call the vet even before calling the owner to ensure prompt medical attention. Other less urgent issues, then the owner should be called first.
 
In my contract I have a list of things that the owners are required to do ie regular worming/worm counts, feet done by qualified&insured practitioner at least every 10 weeks, horse adequately fed etc. I also have a clause which states that I have permission to call vet out if required and that the owner would be liable for expenses.
I've only once voiced concern about a livery horse, it was quickly resolved and horse is looking much better now.
 
There was a similar case on a yard I was at where two ponies weren't being cared for his stable wasn't cleaned out, water wasn't filled up and hay put on floor on top of lots of horrible wee and poo. The YO ended up being owed months of livery, filling up the water and sorting the horse out herself the main difference is that she wouldn't kick them off as she sold them the ponies. One ended up massively underweight and he was an old boy another livery was moving to private land and offered to take him with her to care for and get his weight up for the owner but owner refused. At that point I was frustrated with the YOs lack of action and involved a welfare agency, the old pony was eventually PTS but the young one remains on livery with YO looking out for him I'm no longer on the yard.

Anyway point I was going to make is it can be a slippery slope with owners like this so don't let them start depending on you to pay for their vets and look after their horses. Give the owner an ultimatum and make them sort their horses out, if they won't call the wellfare organisation and at least they can look into it even if the horses leave your yard. Best of luck! xx
 
Yes. I have and would again. If a horse needs a vet and owner hasn't done it in a time I find appropriate they get a vet bill from me.
 
wench said:
If your happy to foot the vets bill I don't see a problem with it. Obviously you have a duty of care under the animal welfare act (?) and if the vet is happy to come and look at the horse can't see how anyone can complain?
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^^^ This.

I would as a YO tell the owner without messing around that the vet WILL be called as their pony is causing a serious welfare issue on the yard and if they don't like it then YO will tell the welfare agencies.

Also as YO I would tell them that the vet will be calling at THEIR expense and that failure to pay YO for the fees and any treatment will result in YO seeking recompense through the courts/debt collecting agencies.

Its no good messing around with owners like this.

My presumption, and understanding of the relevant legislation, is that whether he/she likes it or not then the YO DOES have a "duty of care" here....... a very difficult situation to be in and any YO in these circumstances has my sincere sympathy because whatever she does she is likely to be hugely unpopular.

If vet is willing to attend, I'd ask them to come give a comprehensive diagnosis of what is wrong with the pony, complete with a full report on what treatment they deem necessary - and present same to the numpty owners, together with a dated, signed & witnessed letter from YO to say that if they choose to stay at the yard, because YO has the "duty of care" then he/she expects them to fully comply with all aspects of the vet's recommended treatment; and that failure to do so will be reported to the relevant welfare agencies without fail.

A nightmare situation for any YO to be in; and one has to feel intensely sorry for the poor pony involved. Laminitis is a dreadfully cruel disorder and has to be managed correctly at the very earliest stages - but, TBH, perhaps this poor little one would be better off being PTS TBH if the owners can't be bothered.

Yet another example of sentimentality negating compassion :(
 
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