"You ruin many a good horse on the way to the top"

[Holding]

When I first read the quote I thought it was a bit melodramatic, but after reading the replies and thinking about it, I suppose I do know a number of horses who have been 'ruined' by their riders' ambitions. One young would-be eventer I knew nearly killed the old schoolmaster he had at the time by jumping him until he broke down. The last I heard his current horse had gone the same way. A friend has a seven year old German bred dressage horse branded LOU because at four he was doing passage and piaffe until it destroyed him mentally and physically. It's easy to sit in judgement, but I know how difficult it can be to know how far to push and when to call it a day, particularly with a very talented horse.

Personally I don't think I have ever ruined a horse, but I have definitely made loads of mistakes and done things I wish I could take back.

 

[TarrSteps]

I dont take this as breaking a horse physically but I do believe you can spoil a horses honesty, technique, attitude and rideablity. I often tell people it costs to learn and you spoil some on the way...

I think this is an essential point. I'm surprise how many people seem to think the only way to break a horse is in some dramatic physical way.

 

[siennamum]

I think this is an essential point. I'm surprise how many people seem to think the only way to break a horse is in some dramatic physical way.

I was showing my mare in a round frame in a double far too young & it stopped her ever using her shoulders properly. After years of reschooling she has nice paces, but her technique was never what it could have been. She isn't ruined though, she is a cracker at her job.
I was so obsessed with not making the same mistake with my gelding but made different mistakes with him & made him a bit dishonest (with lovely paces). He isn't ruined though, just not the most genuine jumper. I think horses with flaws aren't broken, (or ruined) they just may not have fulfilled all their potential.

 

[TarrSteps]

Honestly? NONE of you have ever made a bad judgement call that - even indirectly - cost a horse its soundness or its confidence or its positive view of the world?

I agree "ruin" is an emotive word and there is an element of black humour in the saying, but I truly think it's the memory of the horses that have "gone wrong" that keeps good horsemen careful and keen to learn. Along with the successes, of course. I can completely understand why people don't want to think their bad decision may have cost a horse something important but I can tell you, it happens.

I had the longest eye in creation when I started eventing seriously and a very scopey horse. I was told by someone with my best interests that if I didn't sort myself out I would ruin him - or worse - when we eventually met a fence he couldn't just launch over. Guess what happened? It was okay, no one was hurt and he went on to event and compete in other spheres successfully for years after. But on that day I took something precious away from him, his belief in his own invincibility. I felt it happen. And only years and years later did I truly understand what I had done. He was a horse, he didn't mourn it. But I did. And the memory of that has made me MUCH more careful to foster and protect that belief in other horses. (Some lucky souls do that naturally, without even knowing they are doing it.) I could not have changed things for THAT horse because I didn't know any better (although I could have listened better to someone who did) but I have been able to for subsequent horses some times. So I am both ashamed and grateful to have had that experience. And I could list a score more, maybe not so dramatic but equally important. That is, of course, how one learns. You pick yourself up, you dust yourself off, and you try to do better next time. But you try not to forget you are dealing with a living thing. Of course no one INTENDS to make such mistakes but that doesn't change their effect.

I realise this is not how everyone wants to see their horses and their riding - and I would never ask it of anyone else as some people find it paralysing - but I've discussed it enough with people I know and admire to know it's not unusual or "wrong". So much of training is about honesty, it seems only right to be honest in this sphere, too.

 

[Marydoll]

I agree however I don't think it's acceptable. Part of being a professional is ensuring the longevity and maintaining the value of your clients horses. You have a duty or care to the animal and owner you are taking money from. You are in a position of responsibility and that should take priority over your abition and furthering you career.

Couldnt agree more, and any " professional " who thinks otherwise wouldnt park their ar$e on anything belonging to me

 

[suzi]

I agree with TS.

I have made several mistakes on various horses and ponies over the years and inevitability I still do. I try to learn from them as much as possible. Some actions are obviously bad judgement calls at the time and I've realised immediately, others only get noticed later on down the line.

I was fortunate that a bad decision last year only resulted in me being battered and bruised and the horse with a few cuts and scrapes. He could so easily have been more seriously injured or could have lost his jumping confidence.

 

[EstherYoung]

Honestly? NONE of you have ever made a bad judgement call that - even indirectly - cost a horse its soundness or its confidence or its positive view of the world?

I agree "ruin" is an emotive word and there is an element of black humour in the saying, but I truly think it's the memory of the horses that have "gone wrong" that keeps good horsemen careful and keen to learn. Along with the successes, of course. I can completely understand why people don't want to think their bad decision may have cost a horse something important but I can tell you, it happens.

...

I realise this is not how everyone wants to see their horses and their riding - and I would never ask it of anyone else as some people find it paralysing - but I've discussed it enough with people I know and admire to know it's not unusual or "wrong". So much of training is about honesty, it seems only right to be honest in this sphere, too.

This, absolutely.

H has only had a small handful of lamenesses in his career but every single one of those = my fault. I can put every single one down to something that I did or didn't do. For example:
-We took him hunting when the ground was still frozen in parts and one side of a big hedge was frozen ruts and he fractured his splint bone on landing.
-I didn't read the terrain right on a ride and we ended up in bog and he bashed himself.
-I thought he was fitter than he was and didn't give him a day off when he needed one.
-On our first 80km, I kept going when a nagging little voice inside of me knew knew knew he hadn't taken on enough water.
-I let him bowl along thinking he was indestructible when I knew he was tired and I rode him into a pile of brick rubble across the track.

Luckily, he's a very forgiving horse. He's also a very generous horse and he would kill himself for me. He guesses what the stupid numpty wants and does it. But I have been wracked with guilt over the years when I've got it wrong and any one of my stupid mistakes could have had a much worse outcome. None of us know everything. None of us get it right all the time.

 

[HKJ]

I've read this post with great interest, and thought I should add that you can also 'ruin' a horse by breaking his spirit - horses are not robots, and yet so many are treated as such

My mare was sent to a 'pro' and all seemed fine, but she has lost her 'sparkle'. Now at a new yard and trying to get it back. From a very talented little mare to a over quiet, dull coated and muscle loss in 5 weeks (from a top yard)

Very sad

But is she broke.... Or can we get her back?

Watch this space.

 

[TarrSteps]

I would say HKJ, unless there is an underlying physical issue (which the coat and the muscle loss would suggest) and given the very short space of time involved, and the mare's age, that should be totally doable.

'ruined' horses often don't look to be in huge trouble at first glance. Often the 'hole' is more subtle and pervasive than that and that is what part of the people who use that saying mean and what can be so heartbreaking. It's also what makes it so hard to see when you're learning as the cause and effect is often visible only in hindsight.

Sorry to go on, but this is absolutely my specialist subject. I meet a lot of horses on this road - going in both directions - so it is a subject near and dear to my heart.

 

[mynutmeg]

Absolutely.

Chris Bartle said something similar but more eloquent in his book Training the Sport Horse.

"Dedicated to all the horses with whom I've had the opportunity to practise and experiment over the years as I learnt and developed my training philosophy and system. I have been lucky to have had the chance to work with so many horses.

Some have gone on to be superstars and have lived the high life travelling and competing around the world, others have just had to put up with me making mistakes. None of them have the vote but I owe them everything.

I must say 'Sorry' to many of them and 'Thank you' to all of them"

That's how I think about it anyway.

This puts it beautifully

 

[foxy1]

How do we define "ruined" in this context?

In the past, mostly when I was buying and selling horses and that was my main source of income, I'm certainly guilty of pushing green horses to jump the lower affilitated SJ tracks (BN, Disc.) to get some double clears in order to sell them. It sometimes wasn't very pretty but we got the job done. I wouldn't consider them damaged by it unless I'd had a stop (absolutely never an option in my mind) or landed in the middle of a big spread, but that never happened, although I wouldn't have really considered them 'ready'.

I'm guilty now of being too cautious I think, trying to get everything right before I move up, although I'm not sure that has a detrimental effect on the horse, or does it?!

 

[DuckToller]

But on that day I took something precious away from him, his belief in his own invincibility. I felt it happen. And only years and years later did I truly understand what I had done. He was a horse, he didn't mourn it. But I did. And the memory of that has made me MUCH more careful to foster and protect that belief in other horses.

This - taking something away from a horse, whether it's his invincibility, his joy in doing the job, the sense of fun the horse has at the start of doing the job, only to have this taken away by lack of awareness by the rider.

I've seen it many times, and it's another sort of ruin to the more obvious, but it's every bit as important. Thank you for putting it so eloquently, TarrSteps.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Another who doesnt agree with it.

 

[amandaco2]

I think there are moments in every riders life when they do the 'wrong' thing....push or not push, the way they react etc etc.
Ruin sounds very final and as though the horse is never going to be workable....
Moments alone don't usually equate to a ruined horse. More if these moments are repeated over time.
I'd like to think ive not ruined s horse. Definately, I know there are lots better riders than me who they would prefer to have on their backs. But my moments haven't ever resulted in any of my horses being 'ruined' for the job I want them for. They are happy horses who do their jobs with relaxed faces and willing.
Ruin is a hard thing to define as every has different levels and aspirations.

 

[TarrSteps]

I agree it depends on the definition. I think when horsemen use that term though, they don't necessarily mean the horse is then useless, or dangerous or irreparably injured. They simply mean they took something away from those horses, that they were never able to be as good as they could have been. A lot depends on the rider's goals. If you start with a horse that looks to have all the raw material to be a good GP horse (which you have purchased for a lot of money, or are making for someone else or some other high pressure situation) and then the mistake means it cannot be - a training mistake in the changes say, or a mangement decision that results in an injury - then that is, in that situation, a disaster. And it can happen in a moment, really it can.

A friend of mine did it to an employer's good show horse. It popped a splint not long before the most important show of its career and she, as head girl, made the decision to treat it with a topical application that caused a reaction (common side effect) in part to avoid the time spent properly cold hosing. The horse ended up with a seriously scarred leg so not only did it rule out the (already qualified and paid for) big show but it effectively ended the career the horse had been purchased for.

I saw someone else - someone I really respected - "ruin" a pony in a moment of innatention and temper. He was a super special fellow, they type that sells for crazy money in the American show hunter market which is VERY specific in its requirements. He had a particularly natural slow, pretty jump, which is natural in the top performers. He was also a bit anxious, although that can be an advantage as those horses usually keep jumping well, whereas the phlegmatic ones stop caring pretty quickly. She was schooling over fences with a bunch of people, including kids in the school, and not giving the pony full attention. I honesty think she forgot what she was sitting on. She rode him into a jump without adequate preparation and he stopped (which I don't agree is the worst crime a horse can commit under certain circumstances but that's another thread ) and, embarrassed as much as anything, she properly walloped him. You could see the panic in his face as he had never been hit before and did not understand. Then she rode him hard back at the same fence, but fast and hard. He jumped it but it wasn't pretty and he was clearly very stressed.

And that was it. He literally never jumped as well again. He jumped, but tense and flat and certainly not like a winning hunter. The potential buyers who had looked at him (for $25k unshown) walked away at the second viewing. I actually kept track of him and he continued to be a puzzle to the string of people he was passed through, as he looked like he should be outstanding but when he jumped, he wasn't.

Come to think of it, I knew another similar one, that someone walloped for stopping - she also admitted to forgetting what she was sitting on - while she was walking on it a few days after it was backed. I bucked her off big style, and continued to react that way for literally years after.

All these horses were not "ruined" in that they all went on to do okay jobs, none of them were lame or dangerous or useless. But, after those incidents, they were not the horses they had been before.

Of course, the great part of learning is you can learn from other people's experiences! There is no mistake you can make with horses anyone now is making for the first time and, in all likelihood, the mistakes are recorded and rehashed somewhere. Doesn't mean we won't make them again, or make different ones. But knowing what might happen goes along way to making sure it does - or does not - happen.

 

[Chloe_GHE]

I agree with the definition that you make mistakes that you then don't take onto your next horse. I guess if you could have a horse fit and able for the same length as your own lifetime you would just improve and improve that 1 horse until you got to the best level possible, as that isn't biologically possible, every new horse is like a fresh start, and I feel very conscious not to make the same mistakes again.

I was watching some old videos of myself eventing the other day and it was staggering. I honestly now cannot associate my riding now with what I am seeing in the old videos, on my old horse. Time has brought about learning and learning has given me perspective on how I used to ride. I wasn't dangerous, but I don't think (being truly critical) that I was very good. I think I used to be quiet and ineffectual, and so not directly dangerous but not actively taking command and riding either!!

Getting Dustry was like getting a fresh opportunity to get it right. This has meant me taking it slow so as not to repeat past mistakes and improve myself along with him. People often say to me 'when are you eventing again?' when are you going to do X Y Z?... and it takes quite a bit of strength I find to say 'we aren't ready' or 'not until we have achieved X' I want to do things RIGHT, and I want to do them WELL, and if that means taking a few years longer to produce an event horse, I am now of the frame of mind that I would rather take the time now to get the foundation correct in order to reap the rewards later down the line, because I have had first hand experience of just how hard it is to try and revise past mistakes on a horse you have already 'ruined' so to speak.

 

[oldvic]

Ruin is a very strong word but I don't think there is a rider in the world who hasn't had a horse that could have been better if they had done one or more things differently. Some of those horses take it personally while others shrug it off as life and are more forgiving. It isn't just asking too much that can cause problems. A trickier scenario to judge is not asking enough. Some horses will question the rider when taken to the top end of their comfort zone. The rider has to decide whether to step back or keep going. It is not always good to step back as the horse learns how to not work. With the jumping, sticking to hopping over small fences for too long can lead to bad habits and the horse becoming complacent. While not ruined as in unusable, ruined as in a less effective competition horse. I am not saying it is wrong to have and enjoy a horse that maybe has more ability than the rider, but then don't necessarily expect that horse to be able to fulfil his potential at a later date.

As far as trainers are concerned, yes, it is their job to advise and guide but a rider needs to then discover what works. Unfortunately the best lessons are learned through making mistakes and a rider who can only be told what to do will not be successful as a trainer of horses or a competition rider. This is not a dig at Kerilli as I know she can train her horses but I am very anti riders becoming trainer reliant.

 

[Dry Rot]

In this context, maybe "spoil" would be a better word than "ruin".

I've also heard it referred to as "knocking the bloom off".

What someone at the top level would consider "spoilt" might be the perfect horse for someone with lower ambitions, but it surely takes something extra to get to the top or they wouldn't be there. That is often a mental thing, the best are living on the edge. One push too far and they are over that edge, "spoilt", and they are never going to make it. The bloom has been knocked off. The problem is, you never know exactly where that edge will be with each individual animal until you've pushed it too far -- then it's too late. Judging where that edge might be takes experience and experience comes from making mistakes. So, yes, the title of this thread sounds right. But then I'm not at the top and never likely to be!

 

[amandap]

Yes, I've heard it too, and I hate it. If you're got good people to advise you, it shouldn't happen. That's what trainers and wiser heads around you are supposed to do fgs, steer you so you don't make the huge mistakes.
Someone who dressaged once said to me, totally in earnest, "How many horses have you wrecked to get as good as you are?" and admitted that they'd wrecked "loads." I was shocked to the core. I can honestly say I have not wrecked a horse, ever, although there were plenty I didn't get the best from... better riders would have gotten them further and got there faster. My horses' last xc rounds have always been clear, too, which is something I'm quite proud of... never had one bottle it. I'd go RIGHT back to the drawing board or seriously contemplate giving up if I thought horses were getting ruined or going downhill with me riding them... and I think it's crazy if other people don't too.

Just strayng over here as the title caught my eye. I wish there were more people like you!

I don't think riders/owners making mistakes automatically ruins a horse, all horses would be 'ruined' if that were the case. lol
Working a horse insensitively, moving on too quickly and without being able to see if things are going in the right direction and being willing to change tack if the horse isn't too happy is vital imo. Just carrying on with only a goal in mind is open to over stressing horses and imo not really acceptable. The rider has to be able to see their limitations as well. Re whether a horse could achieve more rosettes with another rider is only our view, horses couldn't give a toss imo.

 

[seabsicuit2]

I take the word 'ruin' as destroying a horse physically.. I.E in a dressage yard doing over an solid hour of non stop canter work, piaffe, passages day in day out. with absolutely no warm up or cool down. And then they wonder why the horse is lame, broken or sore.. Or in a eventing yard where they dressage lesson them hard in the morning and take them to the gallops in the afternoon.. And again they wonder why the horse has broken down. Or in racing yards, completely over doing the canter/ gallop work, and ignoring puffy legs and then the tendons break down completely.
I have observed this in many 'top professional' yards, and it makes me rather sick that they don't seem to learn from it. Perhaps they do see horses as completely disposable .
Of course horses can be ruined in other ways as discussed above there's so much too it, but that's all part of learning how to be a horseman!

 

[amandap]

To me a ruined horse is one over stressed either physically or mentally or both that it can no longer cope in that situation. So, behavioural issues might develop and/or physical problems start to impact are signs this is happening. This is different to not being up to the job in my view.

 

[TarrSteps]

I don't think anyone has said making mistakes AUTOMATICALLY causes permanent damage. More that it is POSSIBLE to make a mistake or do something incorrectly that can cause permanent damage. Not the same thing at all. But I don't think it's the worst thing in the world to keep the POTENTIAL for permanent damage in mind. As they say, those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[TarrSteps]

What I see most often are people ignoring the initial signs of trouble - possibly in the minute, more likely over some time - and persevering down a damaging road. But then, as said, sometimes persevering is exactly what has to happen!

 

[TarrSteps]

Btw, I know I sound doom and gloom - when in fact I probably 'fix' a fair number of horses (often on the back of less successful previous experience) - but I figure there are LOADS of people who will tell you it's impossible to do permanent damage to horses and that every experience is a potentially positive one. There's nothing wrong with having a few people around to provide balance. And in fact, access to my mistakes and what I've learned from other people's as well, is part of what I sell. If I know what CAN go wrong I'm less likely to let it go wrong. So, yes, I am more invested than many in keeping the lesson of the original saying uppermost in my mind.

It's also some sort of comfort. If horsemen FAR more skilled and experienced than me feel that way, I can't beat myself up quite as much for my own mistakes. C'est la vie.

 

[spookypony]

I realise this is not how everyone wants to see their horses and their riding - and I would never ask it of anyone else as some people find it paralysing - but I've discussed it enough with people I know and admire to know it's not unusual or "wrong". So much of training is about honesty, it seems only right to be honest in this sphere, too.

I think that's just about the cleverest thing that's been said on this thread!

I've made loads of mistakes...and the scariest moment, I think, can be those where you aren't sure if you're making a mistake, and you're not sure if you are achieving the proper balance of ambition, common sense, and caution, for that particular moment.

 

[amandap]

I don't think anyone has said making mistakes AUTOMATICALLY causes permanent damage.

I agree, I thought I'd better give my meaning of a ruined horse.

 

[Orangehorse]

Often people, a "top" rider say, will reflect on a certain horse "I wish I knew then what I know now" and it is sometimes the horse that got them to their top level.

I know a local dressage rider who seems to be always passing on horses as "untrainable" or even having them PTS, and this is often after they have cost (someone) a great deal of money and I wonder why they have ended up like that.

I had a horse that was completely gutless, and when I was expecting a baby someone else was riding it for me,reasonably successfuly. If properly prepared it could do quite well but it needed its confidence to be built up slowly. One day the rider took it off to a biggish competition with no practice at home at all and it hadn't competed for a while. Of course it was a disaster, the horse was eliminated and all the hard work that I and the rider had done was ruined and it was never as successful again.

There is a physical too. If you really get to the bottom of a horse they are often never the same again. Like TS says it takes the bloom off them, they realise that they are not invincible. I wonder about some horses at Cheltenham that can't get up the hill and if the next time they are ridden up it they give up.