young horse heavy/dead mouth - help!

[georgiegirl]

Hi all,

My new girl is great, love her to pieces and she is going to be a real jumping machine!

However, I bought her from a pro rider and she has been used to being ridden off a strong contact (stronger than I prefer) she is quite heavy in the hand and not at all responsive to half halts! So she does automatically work in an 'outline' but it does feel rather 'fixed' and of course there are ties where she will lean and then start to run on faster. The girl I bought her off actually said she had never broken one in who felt quite so heavy!

So far im using plenty spiral circles, varying her trot and using smaller circles to help get her off my hand a bit and it is working (slowly!)

Has anyone else had a youngster like this? Do you think it will come together with time (she is only 4)? All of my previous horses have been pretty light in front so its taking a bit of getting used to!

She is currently in a french link loose ring snaffle and flash noseband.

Thanks!

 

[ofcourseyoucan]

does she froth up in the mouth? i would try working her in a thinner or thicker mouthpiece (depends what thickness she is in at moment) tie a few bits of horse tail to center to get her to mouth and take the noseband off completely to allow her some jaw freedom and see if it helps! She is only 4 and sounds like she has used the contact to balance on, work long and low and really encourage hind quarter engagement to lighten the forehand (raised trot poles etc) and forget about front end shape til back end is working!

 

[Fiona]

Is she built 'downhill' at all because that makes life more difficult. My TB mare was a good inch and a half lower on her withers than her bum as a 4/5/6yo, and it made schooling her that bit harder. All the half halt/transition/spiral work takes longer than for a horse who is naturally built more uphill.

I think you are prob doing the right thing, it will just take a while. Do you have lessons at all, as a fresh eye could suggest some different exercises.

Keep varying what you ask (such as bending to the outside for 1/2 a circle, and then inside bend again) and keep everything snappy ie lots of transitions rather than trot, trot, trot etc.

Fiona

 

[georgiegirl]

this is the thing......there is tons of froth! There are also odd times it does come up lovely and light and then you can really ride on into it and its a lovely feeling. However its very disconcerting coming to the corner where I like to have a little 'feel' wih the outside rein just before and nothing happens!

She is in what I would say is a 'standard' thickness french link. Tried her in a thinner one and it made no difference at all. Might try taking the flash off and seeing what difference that makes.

The long and low worries me a bit with horses that tend to go on their heads.....I've only ever used it for horses with the opposite problem (works a treat for them) and certainly not at all concerned with what the front end looks like! Its the nice feeling im after!

 

[georgiegirl]

hmmm I wouldnt say she is particularly downhill. In fact her canter does have an awful lot of lift to it for a young horse, her back coes really up and round but she will still sit on your hands a bit.

I've had a couple lessons with the girl I bought her from (3* eventer so she knows her stuff!) and shes given me a few things to practise and it is helping. I always thought it was a myth but Im starting to see the truth in that maybe some horses do naturally have rubbish mouths! - and this was something I saw carl hester say in a demo!

Or maybe its just that I've been used to riding TB's for the past 5 years and a big strapping irish horse is a different matter? who knows

 

[Fiona]

That could be it. my TB (although 'downhill' has normally been fairly 'polite' even when leaning, and is normally ridden in a rubber snaffle.

OH's IDx mare doesn't pull per se, but I am on a hiding to nothing trying to move her head about in the school (ie inside to outside bend) which little TB does beautifully.

Fiona

 

[teddyt]

She is only 4 and hence will be on the forehand. This may mean she has leant on the bit and previous riders have leant back. She may not be responsive because she is physically incapable!

It will take a long time for her to get stronger and more engaged, hence lighter in front. In the mean time do not be tempted to lean/pull back and i personally would take the flash off.

Time and training will get you a lighter horse

 

[bigboyrocky]

was watching an interesting thing on bitting, and especially with young horses, if they have small mouths they can apparently find it hard to swllow, so i would try with a thinner mouth peice and just a loose caveson with no flash and see what happens.. It may not work but i guess its worth a try?
x

 

[oldvic]

I would experiment with cavesson noseband or maybe a mexican grackle as they have less to set on. Maybe also try a neue schule demi anky or verbidend which could help. You are right not to work long and low at this stage - some balance first is required! If she is still strong, maybe sometimes ride her in something like a waterford - you say she has a crap mouth anyway so you can't spoil it! It may show her what you want and mean you pull at her less. If she doesn't understand the half halt going into the corners, stop her before she turns, then ask her to turn and trot - she will soon learn to come back before the turn and wait for you to ask her to make the corner. Also the transition will help as well.

 

[georgiegirl]

we have already discussed the waterford for jumping

shes a real machine over fences and control on a course isnt too bad until you have something on a related line say 4/5 strides away - her radar locks on and were going like it or not! (not a bad thing to have a keen youngster I guess but the plan for next year is byeh classes and hopefully some intros later on in the season so would like a little more refinement before were let loose on a xc course!

will try the walk into corners to get her listening a bit more. The instructor i've been using has been getting us to do the odd 'trot stutter' as we call it ie alost go back to walk, catch the hingleg again and then trot on which is working very well. I'm also getting further down the long side without her leaning, every time it goes to pot I turn off to a small circle then carry on.

Its all time I guess! Bless her, shes just a bit more numbskull than the tb's im used to but she does try!

 

[KatB]

It will be a balance thing. Tbh I would let go of the head completely for a bit and do lots of transitions like you have been, getting her to slow right down before the downwards transition, and really active upwards transition. Once she has got her own balance and worke dout she doesnt need to (and cant!) lean on you, it will get better. Also try lunging a bit with drawreins over her back and through her front legs to the bit, to again get her to stregthen up and use her own balance.

 

[Mickyjoe]

[ QUOTE ]
we have already discussed the waterford for jumping

shes a real machine over fences and control on a course isnt too bad until you have something on a related line say 4/5 strides away - her radar locks on and were going like it or not! (not a bad thing to have a keen youngster I guess but the plan for next year is byeh classes and hopefully some intros later on in the season so would like a little more refinement before were let loose on a xc course!
Its all time I guess! Bless her, shes just a bit more numbskull than the tb's im used to but she does try!

[/ QUOTE ]

She sounds a lot like one of my little darlings. He's rising 6 now and I've had him since he was 2, but he has always been difficult in his mouth and somewhat dead to the aids. He can be a lazy little horse and much prefers to be the one in charge approaching a fence, which can be unsettling as he has a huge jump. My only solution for this was to jump him in a dutch gag on the second ring (which I know loads of people hate) but it seems like the only thing that works for him.

For the dressage phase he wears a either a Sprenger KK lozenge or a half moon french link that I got in Holland and is ade of Aurigan metal. He can do lovely flatwork (wins and placings at PN and too many small hunter/ working hunter wins to mention) provided I ride purely from my seat and legs and don't mess with his mouth, but it can be very frustrating when he sets himself against me.

What is your mare's breeding? My lad is by Quiletto (SF) out of a Flagmount Diamond mare.

I used to compete a Cleveland Bay mare that was very heavy in my hands and while her confirmation was slightly unhelpful (very big, heavy neck and slightly loaded shoulder) I did manage to get her to carry herself more with some help from Conrad Schumacher. He had me doing lots of transitions and trot to halt and then ask for turn on the forehand to prevent her sitting on my hands in the halt. Also plenty of trot pole work to get her using her back and lightening.