Youngster- Changing behind in canter

HayleyUK

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Hello,

I'm hoping that popping out of lurkerdom might mean some of you will have some advice or friendly tips for me and my youngster. Apologies if this gets a big long- trying to give as much info as possible.

C - 15HH riding pony, 6YO. I bought her in the October of her 4YO year, and she promptly went lame in the Dec/Jan with a DDFT injury (scar tissue build up rather than a hole/tear) right behind her knee of the left fore. There was also evidence of KS which Leahurst and physio believed were a result of the way she was holding herself due to the niggle behind her knee before she actually downed tool and went properly lame on me. She had a Gamma scan, ultrasound and nerve block work up at Leahurst over the course of a week with nothing to note other than impinging T15-18 vertbrae and the scarring behind the knee of the DDFT.

Treatment was pretty much box rest and controlled walking in hand - with a period of pole work in hand and on longlines building up to getting onboard in September/October just before winter arrived with a bang.

She's never been particularly strong/muscular - she was a dot when she arrived and we've worked hard to put weight on and start to build muscle without her losing the plot however, we've hit a bit of issue in training with canter.

She canters in quite a short and bouncy way - and tends to favor being hollow (I think this could be remembered pain) - she can and will work round and forwards in a longer frame if I insist. However, she quite likes to change lead behind. She does this both lunged and ridden - but it isn't consistent. Sometimes, she won't do it at all - other times she'll do it 4 or 5 times on the one rein and not on the other etc. There is no consistency in the when that helps me to look for a why.

She is less likely to do it if I can get her moving forward in a more WH style canter than this bouncy SJ, on the spot style way of going.

Physio has always had a concern re: LH not quite doing what it should - although Leahurst didn't see it (she presented lame RH when we took her and didn't display anything of concern LH whilst they had her and whilst she revisited) - scans and ultrasounds show nothing to note clinically.
Vet says its not lame or different enough to block - and we've done the scans and xrays etc at Leahurst with nothing to note. Her advice is to keep on and once there is something we can clinically work up - we will explore what symptoms are presented.

Regular instructor says its a baby thing - and as she comes stronger she'll stop naturally. Instructions are to press on when she changes and let her change back - which she does sometimes, but is quite happy to canter round merrily on the wrong lead behind without a care in the world.

Anyone any experiences of this in youngsters or can offer any hope she might eventually canter like a 'normal' pony (LOL)

Thanks
H :)
 

Quincy1

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I have a rising 5 year old who used to do this with me on the right rein. He has never done it with my instructor and we think I twist my body so that I unbalance him on the right. Now he is a bit stronger he has stopped doing it. He used to have a very open canter and would simply do it to stay upright (as well as an evasion when he found that it worked!). I find that if I am a bit strong with either hand or leg in a corner he will change behind but it is getting less and less. Hope this helps!
 

CambridgeParamour

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My 5yr old also used to do this on the lunge and ridden. He has 2 processes removed in June and stopped totally on the lunge. He still did it a lot under saddle when he came back into work. He's been in medium work for about 8 weeks now, and hardly ever changes now :) when he does I believe it's a balance issue. Good luck with yours!
 

Fat_Pony

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That was the only symptom my mare showed. It took me a year to convince vets there was anything wrong, but turned out she had kissing spines t6-t12 and sacroiliac dysfunction. She was eventually pts.
 

maxine1985

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That was the only symptom my mare showed. It took me a year to convince vets there was anything wrong, but turned out she had kissing spines t6-t12 and sacroiliac dysfunction. She was eventually pts.

Exactly the same as 2 horses I know

Hayley, the impinging T15-18 vertebrae is 'kissing spines' have these been treated at all or investigated further?
 

DonkeyClub

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Very common with youngsters! They will eventually build up enough strength and balance to stop doing it. My re school project horse couldn't canter a whole circle 3 months ago, then we went through constant changing behind on one rein, now he can canter both reins perfectly , might throw in the odd change on the left rein but generally he can canter 10m/ 20 m circles no probs now without any changes
 

HayleyUK

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The KS was diagnosed following an X-ray by Leahurst. On revisits they were confident there were no clinical signs and the Physio rehab we'd spent months doing had resolved the issue.

Physio is also happy that there is no reaction as there was before when the area is examined etc.

Leahurst didn't feel it needed re xraying, although usual vet is happy to do this if I want to.

Thanks for all the personal experiences - feel happier that it's not just mine! She doesn't quite use both hinds equally and the push from behind is weaker on the left, but guess that's just muscle weakeness??
 

Imonone

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I had this once with a youngster that wasn't very supple. When he lost balance he would change behind. As he grew stronger it only happened as he came back to trot or didn't have enough impulsion. Eventually it just stopped.
Try riding really forward in the canter and avoiding small circles or turns until the balance improves.
 

CambridgeParamour

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The KS was diagnosed following an X-ray by Leahurst. On revisits they were confident there were no clinical signs and the Physio rehab we'd spent months doing had resolved the issue.

Physio is also happy that there is no reaction as there was before when the area is examined etc.

Leahurst didn't feel it needed re xraying, although usual vet is happy to do this if I want to.

Thanks for all the personal experiences - feel happier that it's not just mine! She doesn't quite use both hinds equally and the push from behind is weaker on the left, but guess that's just muscle weakeness??

Before Kaisers op he didnt push through properly from the right... Now there is no difference
 

HayleyUK

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Wouldn't put her through an op I don't think. She didn't cope well with the rehab/ box rest last summer.

May be worth having the vet back to re X-ray the spine and go from there.
 

CambridgeParamour

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I think I would have the x-rays and see what they show.

Kaiser had the processes shaved but I know there is a different way where the ligament is cut, and I don't think (don't quote me though) it has a period of total box rest. Def worth talking to the vet about if the x rays do show KS

Good luck
 

charlie76

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Ours did this,he to on had kissing spine and PSD of both hind legs, both have been treated but he also has SI issues and is now just a happy hacker as and when he isn't too sore.
 

HayleyUK

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I don't think she'd make a hacker. She's the type that needs a job and isn't reliable out hacking so hoping it doesn't come to that.

I guess it's the X-rays that will decide if it's the KS or if it's just babyish ness.
 

Nannon

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Noticed my boy do this yesterday when free schooling for the first time - hasn't done it under saddle or on the lunge before! I had some worries with him because he squares his back toes off, vet had a quick look at him and said prominent hunters bump so may have SI problems at some point and straightish hocks but nothing to worry about as clearly not in pain or lame.
Regarding KS ops, one horse on my yard had one in wales recently which has 3 weeks box rest only and has improved already - May be worth looking at if you decided to go that way?
 

TarrSteps

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I've missed something on this thread. . .how did it default to ks? There could be any manner of reasons. In an older horse that suddenly starts having trouble with leads/changes my first thought would actually probably be hocks. That said, impossible to say without seeing.
 

HayleyUK

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Thanks TarrSteps - I think KS was mentioned because Leahurst found impingement of the spine when she was there for a work up to find out what was causing the lameness. Diagnosis was scar tissue on the DDFT behind the knee on the left fore.

Physio remains convinced the impingement was caused by the unusual way of carrying herself and the fact she was very weak and lacked muscle to support a changed way of moving.

Hocks show nothing on gamma scan and blocks.
 

TarrSteps

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Sorry, missed the suspicion of ks. I'd be wondering less about hocks in a horse that age, although never say never. You've ticked that box.

The problem is canter leads are rather canaries in coal mines and some horses are particularly prone to show a problem in that gait first. You can't necessarily draw a straight line to a particular physical problem. Interestingly, someone I teach who is also on here has an older horse with known physical problems who has struggled for years with one canter lead and a tendency to cross canter. She's done various things to help him and now he gets the lead and keeps it much more consistently. What is most interesting is this has corresponded with a notable change in one of his front feet! Not quite the connection one might expect but shows how complex the mechanism can be.

There are also LOTS of horses who improve in this area with the right work. This by no means rules out an underlying physical issue though.
 

HayleyUK

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That's really useful - I'm leaning more towards the weakness than a physical issue as surely more work would make the issue worse, which doesn't seem to be the case.
 

TarrSteps

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That's really useful - I'm leaning more towards the weakness than a physical issue as surely more work would make the issue worse, which doesn't seem to be the case.

Well, technically my point is it's not necessarily 'either or'. Correct riding should strengthen and supple the horse so will support a horse even if there is something underlying in the same way that, for instance, people with arthritis are recommended exercise or patients with knee injuries are given targeted work to develop supporting structures. This is at least partly why some horses did get better even when we didn't have the fancy diagnostic or treatment options we have now.

Anyway, it's up to you how to proceed, really. You can go ahead with the work and see how it goes, with the proviso you get the situation investigated if it fails to improve or gets worse. If it does improve and then gets worse again, definitely off to the vet.

As a note, I'm not really a fan of letting horses cross canter to 'teach' them. I think it makes horse sore and cross - if they were able to fix it, they would! But many roads to Rome and if it works, it works.
 
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