Your cancellable takes...

[stangs]

Horses (and any of the higher animals) most certainly know what sex they are, and recognise it in others of their species. I have no idea how you can believe that they don't.

We know that they behave as would be expected of their sex, but to what extent is that behaviour based on reacting to hormones and imitative behaviour (whether equids naturally use cultural learning, however, I don't know), rather than some meta recognition of their own gender?

E.g. a mare with an ovarian tumour who mounts other mares. How would she perceive her sex?

 

[ycbm]

Obviously we can't get into their heads and ask, "How does it feel to be a gelding/mare/stallion?"

I am yet to hear any human define "feeling" female in any terms but reference to ways of dressing, cosmetics and stereotypical home making/nurturing behaviours. NONE of which I relate to or conform to, which doesn't make me a man.

I don't "feel" female and I couldn't tell you what it means to "feel" female. I just AM female.
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[IrishMilo]

I think the majority of people are too nice to their horses.

 

[[153312]]

What an interesting turn this thread has taken!

I think gender recognition, both self-reflexive and as regards to other individuals, in non-human animals is a really interesting conversation. Obviously we can't get into their heads and ask, "How does it feel to be a gelding/mare/stallion?" Nor can we ever know if a male horse feels like he should have been female, or vice versa. We don't know if animals see gender roles as social constructs -- but probably not? I think that's what ponynutz was trying to get at. It doesn't mean animals aren't intelligent, but gender roles (the jobs of stallions v. mares in a wild herd, say) seem determined by biology, hormones, and yes, learned behaviour. But do horses have the cognitive ability to question the basic premises and structure of their society?

IMO:
sexual selection and rensch's rule suggests that animals do have gender roles, though, and in social species you can cause absolute disarray by changing one marker of their sex (ie smell with hormone/pheromone injection etc) but not another (ie their appearance) - think about the species in which some males mimic the appearance of females in order to get mates (off the top of my head, snakes, lots of fish, lizards etc all do it, & some birds, molluscss, crustaceans).. It really confuses the non-deceptive males.
This proves these 'gender roles' are a mostly biologically based; like roles in an ant or bee colony, which are also majority* biologically determined by chemical secretions by the queen during development.

I am yet to hear any human define "feeling" female in any terms but reference to ways of dressing, cosmetics and stereotypical home making/nurturing behaviours. NONE of which I relate to or conform to, which doesn't make me a man.

I don't "feel" female and I couldn't tell you what it means to "feel" female. I just AM female.
.

You feel like yourself. We call what you are to yourself 'female', because humans like categorising stuff.

Animals don't have the theory of mind to assume what they identify as 'self' is the same/broadly similar as others of their kind identify as 'self', I don't think; they just know what is the same as themselves and what is different. Naming things, and language, is so far as we know, a uniquely human trait.

* I'm probably making bugger all sense here. Sorry.....tl;dr we have genders and gender roles because we have language and the ability to build and, importantly, SHARE amongst ourselves psychological concepts. Animals don't. (To my knowledge/limited skim of the literature).


Now can we please get this thread back on topic?

Edited for spelling and grammar

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

Well that's me and maybe 75+% of the horse owning population in court then ?
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It is a thread for unpopular opinions ?‍

 

[Sleipnir]

There's a huge amount of "professional saddle fitters" that do their job so poorly they should not let be near a horses' back.

 

[ycbm]

It is a thread for unpopular opinions ?‍

I'm in a very raw place at the moment, I have to give up control of how my remaining horse lives in four days time and my days of never having to stable my horses for longer than it takes them to eat bucket food are over. It helps me to keep rehearsing to myself that I'm not going to be asking him to do anything that most of the country's horses aren't doing. Your addition of "punishable" to "welfare issue" was triggering. Apologies for my knee-jerk reaction.
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[littleshetland]

I'm in a very raw place at the moment, I have to give up control of how my remaining horse lives in four days time and my days of never having to stable my horses for longer than it takes them to eat bucket food are over. It helps me to keep rehearsing to myself that I'm not going to be asking him to do anything that most of the country's horses aren't doing. Your addition of "punishable" to "welfare issue" was triggering. Apologies for my knee-jerk reaction.
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Sending you a hug.

 

[Peglo]

Groomings not fun. I do the bare minimum I can get away with.

 

[Rumtytum]

Groomings not fun. I do the bare minimum I can get away with.

I don’t have a horse and am abroad for half of each year, so the hour I have with ‘my’ RS horse after my lesson giving him a groom and massage is priceless, as much pleasure as riding. Guess the novelty would have worn off years ago if I was a horse owner ?

 

[Trouper]

I'm in a very raw place at the moment, I have to give up control of how my remaining horse lives in four days time and my days of never having to stable my horses for longer than it takes them to eat bucket food are over. It helps me to keep rehearsing to myself that I'm not going to be asking him to do anything that most of the country's horses aren't doing. Your addition of "punishable" to "welfare issue" was triggering. Apologies for my knee-jerk reaction.
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I expect he is going to have some fun "joining a herd" and watching what goes on with everyone else and making new friends. Don't beat yourself up about him - you have enough on your plate just now.

 

[littleshetland]

Catch the horse, groom the horse, bath the horse, spend hours brushing horses tail, hours to muck out a stable, endless tack cleaning, sweeping, hoof picking, polishing horse til it shines, etc etc, anything but actually ride the bloody horse. And when the planets are correctly aligned and the horse does eventually get ridden we are treated to fine display of total incompetence and sheer naked terror. All diplomatic and tactfully put offers of help (that come from a genuinely kind place) are rebuffed and rejected. Hey ho...as long as people are happy enjoying themselves and their horses - thats all that matters. This is all particularly galling when the horse involved is an absolute cracker!

edited to say, I know this isn't a very popularly held view....it really is all about how much joy we get from our horses and I know a lot of people get a lot of happiness from non ridden ones too.

 

[COldNag]

I'm in a very raw place at the moment, I have to give up control of how my remaining horse lives in four days time and my days of never having to stable my horses for longer than it takes them to eat bucket food are over. It helps me to keep rehearsing to myself that I'm not going to be asking him to do anything that most of the country's horses aren't doing. Your addition of "punishable" to "welfare issue" was triggering. Apologies for my knee-jerk reaction.
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Honestly your horse will be fine, and you will adapt. It will be very different, definitely - but think of all the facilities.
And you can just go away for the weekend whebever you want, no prior planning required.

 

[cauda equina]

deleted

 

[cauda equina]

Catch the horse, groom the horse, bath the horse, spend hours brushing horses tail, hours to muck out a stable, endless tack cleaning, sweeping, hoof picking, polishing horse til it shines, etc etc, anything but actually ride the bloody horse. And when the planets are correctly aligned and the horse does eventually get ridden we are treated to fine display of total incompetence and sheer naked terror. All diplomatic and tactfully put offers of help (that come from a genuinely kind place) are rebuffed and rejected. Hey ho...as long as people are happy enjoying themselves and their horses - thats all that matters. This is all particularly galling when the horse involved is an absolute cracker!

'Horses want to be ridden'

 

[littleshetland]

'Horses want to be ridden'

Well thats probably a whole new subject to be discussed - but when I get a sense of people really wanting to do more with their horse and what I suspect, is fear holding them back, I really would like to help. Its kind of sad for them to see everyone else hacking, schooling and having fun, but they're to fearful to join the 'party'.

 

[smolmaus]

My take: Riding a horse can actually be really scary and its not illogical at all to be afraid of it. Its still dangerous even in the safest environments and the people afraid of it are probably closer to normal than we are.

I am terrified of swimming even in a lesson format but will hop up on basically any horse offered to me without a second thought. Brain broke.

 

[littleshetland]

My take: Riding a horse can actually be really scary and its not illogical at all to be afraid of it. Its still dangerous even in the safest environments and the people afraid of it are probably closer to normal than we are.

I am terrified of swimming even in a lesson format but will hop up on basically any horse offered to me without a second thought. Brain broke.

I get your point...but do you spend hours everyday hanging around at the swimming pool, paddling in the shallow end whilst longing to be diving and doing front crawl up at the deep end?

 

[greenbean10]

I get your point...but do you spend hours everyday hanging around at the swimming pool, paddling in the shallow end whilst longing to be diving and doing front crawl up at the deep end?

To be fair if I was terrified of doing something but really wanted to then that's how I'd probably deal with the situation ? Think the official name is exposure therapy!

Although I agree that it's not really the same with spending hours brushing a horse instead of actually getting on the horse.

 

[Shilasdair]

I'm in a very raw place at the moment, I have to give up control of how my remaining horse lives in four days time and my days of never having to stable my horses for longer than it takes them to eat bucket food are over. It helps me to keep rehearsing to myself that I'm not going to be asking him to do anything that most of the country's horses aren't doing. Your addition of "punishable" to "welfare issue" was triggering. Apologies for my knee-jerk reaction.
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You may find your horse adjusts better than you think.
My two live out as much as possible (I hate mucking out) but one of them LOVES to come in at night.
This is entirely due to her slothfulness- in a stable she has her hay, water and bed all close to hoof and doesn't have to actually walk to reach them.

 

[smolmaus]

I get your point...but do you spend hours everyday hanging around at the swimming pool, paddling in the shallow end whilst longing to be diving and doing front crawl up at the deep end?

Well I do enjoy a tide pool and dipping my toes in a river! But I was mostly using your post as a jumping off point for my thought, I agree it is a bit sad when people don't have the confidence or the support to do what they want to be doing.

 

[NinjaPony]

Another hot take: some horses hate living out 24/7 and actively prefer coming in overnight. My retired pony is one of them…

 

[littleshetland]

Well I do enjoy a tide pool and dipping my toes in a river! But I was mostly using your post as a jumping off point for my thought, I agree it is a bit sad when people don't have the confidence or the support to do what they want to be doing.

Especially when support is offered in a tactful and gentle way.

 

[humblepie]

I like grooming my horse (although totally happy for him to get muddy, stay muddy although funnily enough he doesn't generally get muddy although he is out all day).

 

[meleeka]

My horses old owner arranged to visit him. I had to buy a couple especially! In my defence, mine are retired and I do have mane brushes and magic brushes for mud, but I couldn’t find anything for a more leisurely groom.

 

[EchoInterrupted]

I hate seeing instagram full of reels of people jumping unnecessarily high jumps over and over again. Is anyone else thinking about those horses' legs?... Have no problem with people posting their horses, their rides, etc. on instagram but I feel like loads of people just jump unnecessarily high for no reason, to the detriment of their horse.

I think someone else already said it, but age classes shouldn't be a thing. Why are we encouraging people to overwork horses that aren't even physically mature?

I think there should be a carbon tax on non-essential horse goods that are bought new. Seeing people show off their 20 hardly used matchy-matchy pads/bandages/ears make me cringe from a sustainability perspective, as does the influencers whose entire thing is equine (fast) fashion with a new outfit every day. I have no problem with people getting mathcy matchy or cute things second hand (god knows there's currently enough out there) or having a couple bought-new sets they use until they fall apart. But really, who needs 20 saddle pads for 1 or 2 horses.

 

[Fransurrey]

Speaking as a yard owner, would it be very much frowned upon to request that when potential new livery's come to view the yard.....they bring a a recent, comprehensive psychiatric report with them...?

Only if the potential YO/YM brings theirs.

 

[Peglo]

I don’t have a horse and am abroad for half of each year, so the hour I have with ‘my’ RS horse after my lesson giving him a groom and massage is priceless, as much pleasure as riding. Guess the novelty would have worn off years ago if I was a horse owner ?

i wish I liked it. When people say they go to the stables and groom for hours and it’s their happy place it sounds idyllic. I just don’t feel it.? Give me mucking out a stable any day ?

I agree with some horses like coming in. Mine are just stabled at night in winter and they certainly want in. Don’t think they miss their stables through the summer when it’s warmer though.

 

[meleeka]

For those that say their horses like to be in, I always suggest leaving the door open and seeing what happens. I have two that don’t go anywhere, if it’s the evening or if it’s raining, as long as they have hay, so that tells me all I need to know.
An acquaintance keeps her horses in almost full time because “They love their stables”. Funnily enough she didn’t want to try my suggestion ?

 

[Shilasdair]

For those that say their horses like to be in, I always suggest leaving the door open and seeing what happens. I have two that don’t go anywhere, if it’s the evening or if it’s raining, as long as they have hay, so that tells me all I need to know.
An acquaintance keeps her horses in almost full time because “They love their stables”. Funnily enough she didn’t want to try my suggestion ?

My slothful mare actually enthusiastically takes herself to bed loose, she even used to ignore the sweet-talking stallion in favour of food and bed (if you ask me, she's got her priorities right0.

ETA: My two are stabled in adjoining boxes, though so have company - they can see and touch each other, even share a haynet in the stable. I think horses often prefer to be with friends whether in or out.