Your much appreciated thoughts on this please

Mrs Jingle

Mrs Jingle

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Sorry a bit long to give some background. As some of you know I recently lost my lab at the age of only 6 and less than a month later our little terrier with advanced dementia.

We had been on the waiting list of a reputable labrador breeder for one of the next due litter of pups. Out of the blue she very kindly offered us one of her adult show bitches (3 years) that apparently did not like being a show dog at all, and she had decided to probably give up the showing side anyway. So we agreed and in the past week we have had her she is proving a perfect match for our household, settled within 24 hours, confident, loving and obedient.

We have never had less than 2 dogs and usually about 4, mainly because it is our personal opinion that it is kinder and more natural to allow dogs to have at least one housemate - but now we are older we will be sticking to just two dogs. We had intended to look out for a rescue terrier but on reflection we think Jem would appreciate a similar sized dog that she has been used to (lived with 7 other labradors)

So long story short - I now have the possibility of adopting her brother from the same litter. Obviously also 3 years old - . neither are neutered at the moment but if we take him on it is our intention to have him neutered and Jem will be getting spayed anyway.

We have pictures of them together and look very settled and content in each others company. He is also well trained and has been used as a show dog but never a stud. Although we do have vast experience of multiple dogs, I have never kept two litter mates, mainly because of the risk associated with doing that when you get two pups together. Does this sound like a risky thing to do would you think? Or is the fact they they are now both adults and well trained lessen the risk of litter mate syndrome? i.e untrainable, ignoring owner etc. etc.

I would really love to hear if anyone has adopted adult sibling and how it panned out.
 
Sounds like a perfect solution to me, I had a littermate back that I bred when she was 6 months old and I’d kept her brother. They weren’t a problem together in anyway. I would have thought that yours being older would be fine and I think it would work out well, especially as you know the sister has settled so well.
 
I did something slightly similar (took on a six months old male and then his sister when she became available at nine months) as they weren't show quality.
They were great company for each other and had a lovely time hooning around but I found it personally difficult as the female was extremely highly strung and then would freak out when they were separated (he couldn't care less, bless him) and her chatacter traits combined with his physical issues made it a bit of an ordeal in the end.

However...in your case, if they are both nice laid back types and older/well trained/used to different types of households, it could be a perfect fit!
 
I bought two eight week old litter mate Rotties.

It's been extra work making sure they were walked separately as well as together, trips out with one and not the other, etc., so they didn't become too bonded.

Thankfully it's all worked out fine. They're lovely dogs. They're happy to be together and to be apart. They're trained to respond to general 'all dogs' commands and to individual ones.

If I was in tbe same situation as you I'd go for it ?
 
Thank you for your replies. Well he is coming to visit tomorrow and see how it goes when he meets us and sees Jem again. Apparently he is a little wary at first of people he doesn't know but soon comes around if you ignore him - Jem was the same but came 'around' within 5 minutes of her owner leaving and couldn't decide which one of us was the most likely treat giver and constant couch sharer lol!

I do hope it works out but I will update on how the meeting goes.
 
Do you know when Jem was last in season and is likely to come in again? Not sure if you are set up for having an entire male and female together? It could be something worth thinking about before taking him on if she is due imminently and maybe defer his arrival. Also, if you do need to castrate him I would fully explore the degree of his nervousness around strangers before committing to have him, as castrating may exacerbate.
 
On the neutering the dog side, Bo came to us in-neutered at 4. He was/still is wary of strangers, but we wanted to get him neutered. When we took him for his first vet check, the vet advised us not to neuter straight away and let him settle right in first. We got him done about 3 months later. It’s made no difference to his behaviour either way. He is better meeting new people, but I think that’s his trust in us more than anything (not being big headed).
 
Gunnerdog - Yes she is half way between seasons and apparently is as regular as clockwork - she will be spayed within the next couple of weeks regardless.

He would definitely have to be castrated as unfortunately the area we live in has numerous wandering dogs, both entire dogs and unspayed bitches. Although our acre or so of house and garden is completely dog proofed the yard and fields are not, and we do spend a lot of time either int he fields or the yard and the dogs are always with us, so remaining entire just isn't an option.

I am interested that you think castrating him could exacerbate nervousness with strangers, I have actually found the very opposite in the past with dogs that are a bit nervous. But having said that we are very remote and consequently visitors are rather rare and all my dogs have shown guarding instinct if a stranger appears. I have ni problem with that.

Can you explain how the castrating has done this in your experience - genuinely interested to take that on board as a possible issue that I have not come across before and might need to watch out for that possibility.
 
By castrating you are removing the major organs that produce testosterone......it will be produced elsewhere in the body but not to anywhere near the degree it is in the testicles. It was traditionally thought that testosterone was what drove aggressive behaviour. However there is now a line of thought that aggression is more dependent on the levels of oxytocin and vasopressin. However, I think it is still believed that it is testosterone that gives the dog confidence to a degree (talking hormones here and ignoring nurture for a moment). Remove the testosterone and you can dilute/remove the confidence. In a dog that is already wary this could lead to fear aggression.

I know that your potential new dog does not exhibit aggression and is only wary but I think it is only a matter of degree and one step on the journey to. I believe this is why a lot of people experiment with chemical castration as well to judge what the effect could be on their dog before taking an irreversible step.

I will try and find some better peer reviewed papers for you if I get a chance tomorrow, but a quick google throws up (amongst others) the following: https://www.walkervillevet.com.au/blog/dog-castrate-cause-aggression/
It's from Australia and I have no idea if they are a respected vet group or not....Aru who posts on here may be able to comment. What interested me was the listing of papers that they cite and the comment: yes it helped/no it didn't. I think the jury is out on this subject still, no clear black/white answer as there are many contributing factors to consider.........not least, will the move to a new environment help or hinder undesirable behaviours? Hope this gives you some food for thought, even if no direct answers.
 
Very interesting and thank you gunnergundog for taking the trouble. Much food for thought and almost total opposite to my long held beliefs on the short and long term effects of castrating dogs. I shall read that link tomorrow from walkerville vets.

I have to say though that the owner in no way suggests that the dog is or could be aggressive with strangers, just wary of them to a degree. However, I would not like to think my getting the dog castrated would add to its lack of confidence and fear.

As someone else stated their experience earlier, hopefully with the collective family offering reassurance and confidence building interaction it won't be a problem, as I have found in the past. But every day is a new day of information and education so open to all thoughts and opinions for sure. thank you :)
 
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I am sure all will be well, as they are used to living together. We have had Lab littermates several times, once a dog that we kept and a bitch who was returned to us when my parents bred them and since then all bitches, they have lived in pairs, with other adult pairs and with adult singles. Then we got 2 Rottweiler littermates, with no problems between them, had one pts aged 6 because of cancer, still have the other and 2 Lab litter sisters who are now 1 year old.
 
Would it be possible to have him on a short trial just to ensure the two get along well before making the final commitment to keep him?

With regard to neutering, you could try the chemical castration initially (Suprelorin implant) to give an indication as to whether surgical castration would affect his temperament and confidence. It takes around six weeks for the dog to become infertile and lasts for either 6 or 12 months depending on dosage.
 
How bizarre you should post that Moobli ! - I am just here researching the chemical castration option. It does seem a possibility to gauge his reaction to castration before we go ahead with the snip, if we have him of course.

I am sure his owner would agree to a short trial as she did with Jem if today's meet goes ok. they were good buddies as litter mates and lived together until just 8 days ago - But Jem might well decide she doesn't want him on her new exclusive territory and he might decide he doesn't like her now anyway lol!
 
Just my experience, but my rescue boy was highly volatile and fear aggressive pre castration, a year on and he is a different, happier, more confident little dog who will now happily greet people with no aggression at all, this all changed for the better from being castrated
 
Oh well - back to the drawing board! The meet up has been cancelled. The owner wanted us to keep him entire in case she wants to use him as a stud if she happens to find the right bitch at a later date. Mr J did not want to have the option of using what would in theory be 'our' dog as a stud dog at random intervals. I have to say that bothered me too.

We have now decided to get Jem spayed in a couple of weeks, give her another few weeks to recover and settle and then start the search for our second dog again. I am a little disappointed as I thought it could be a perfect idea, but not meant to be just yet.

Thank you all for your opinions, if nothing else I am now rather better informed about neutering adult dogs.:)
 
That”s disappointing, Mrs Jingle, although having dogs of the opposite sex must be a real pita at times. There’s no way I’d undertake this ‘might want him for breeding’ either. I know it happens, but I wouldn’t want my dog used this way and being used as a stud can change a dog’s behaviour, so I’ve heard.

When’s her next litter due? Do you not fancy waiting for the pups like you were going to originally?

gunnergundog said:
Also, if you do need to castrate him I would fully explore the degree of his nervousness around strangers before committing to have him, as castrating may exacerbate.
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Agree, I’ve heard so many people say this. I massively regret castrating Zak, I’m sure it made his fear aggression worse. I thought it would help. The only thing that has helped him is keeping him feeling safe. As he’s got older, he’s much friendlier and more relaxed with humans, but will never accept other dogs.
 
Mrs Jingle said:
Oh well - back to the drawing board! The meet up has been cancelled. The owner wanted us to keep him entire in case she wants to use him as a stud if she happens to find the right bitch at a later date. Mr J did not want to have the option of using what would in theory be 'our' dog as a stud dog at random intervals. I have to say that bothered me too.

We have now decided to get Jem spayed in a couple of weeks, give her another few weeks to recover and settle and then start the search for our second dog again. I am a little disappointed as I thought it could be a perfect idea, but not meant to be just yet.

Thank you all for your opinions, if nothing else I am now rather better informed about neutering adult dogs.:)
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I didn't comment before but tbh if I were you I'd get a terrier - you like tham (mad woman that you are!) and unless you really need a single breed or type a mixture is such good fun.
 
Oh that is disappointing. If you intend to have the bitch spayed though, it wouldn’t worry me to keep the dog entire or for him to be used at stud at a later date, but can understand why it might not be for you.
 
Cinnamontoast said:
When’s her next litter due? Do you not fancy waiting for the pups like you were going to originally?
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No we decided that if we got Jem we would not take a puppy later - and originally we intended to look out for an adult rescue of some sort for her company.

Pearlsasinger said:
Was the breeder intending to gift him to you?
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No we would have been paying a token amount for him - far less than his market value as he has got first rate show breeding on both sides so in theory we would have been able to use him as a stud ourselves if we wished and health checks alone for stud dogs are very expensive aren't they?

Clodagh said:
I didn't comment before but tbh if I were you I'd get a terrier - you like tham (mad woman that you are!) and unless you really need a single breed or type a mixture is such good fun.
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lol! yes I do like the terrorist temperament I have to admit and miss having one around so we might possibly go back to original idea of a rescue terrier. I just don't like the idea of keeping a single dog, I know it works wonderfully for many people, but personally I prefer that they have canine company as well as our company.


Moobli said:
If you intend to have the bitch spayed though, it wouldn’t worry me to keep the dog entire or for him to be used at stud at a later date, but can understand why it might not be for you.
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It wasn't so much that Moobli that concerned us, although it did to a certian extent. I think I said earlier we are very rural here and although 1 acre of house and garden is dog proof, our fields and the horse yard are not. And any dogs we own spend all their time with us , be it in the garden, in the yard or in the fields, many, many neighbours let their un neutered dogs roam, it would be impossible to keep an entire male dog from following in heat bitches etc. etc. And we have at least two neighbours that would just shoot a dog on sight if it came on their land and they felt it was bothering their bitch, or one of them even if it wasn't! The harsh but true reality of living where we are sadly.
 
Mrs Jingle said:
Oh well - back to the drawing board! The meet up has been cancelled. The owner wanted us to keep him entire in case she wants to use him as a stud if she happens to find the right bitch at a later date. Mr J did not want to have the option of using what would in theory be 'our' dog as a stud dog at random intervals. I have to say that bothered me too.

We have now decided to get Jem spayed in a couple of weeks, give her another few weeks to recover and settle and then start the search for our second dog again. I am a little disappointed as I thought it could be a perfect idea, but not meant to be just yet.

Thank you all for your opinions, if nothing else I am now rather better informed about neutering adult dogs.:)
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Sorry it hasn’t worked out. I personally think that the current owner wanting to rehome him but insisting he remains intact is a bloody cheek. You need a bitch terrier - game, hold their own with other dogs (whatever the size) aren’t easily offended, will rough play happily, lightweight re strength but can be noisy buggers - but your set-up sounds perfect?
 
Mrs Jingle said:
Oh well - back to the drawing board! The meet up has been cancelled. The owner wanted us to keep him entire in case she wants to use him as a stud if she happens to find the right bitch at a later date.
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Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! I really do hate people breeding from dogs with less than 100% temperament. Why breed from anything that exhibits any degree of nervousness? It beats me. :(
 
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