Your thoughts please, bad loan.

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PeterF

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Hi all, an all too common problem I'm afraid but one that hasn't affected us before. My daughter had a horse on full livery at a yard and decided to sell because of other committments. The male owner of the yard asked to buy her but as money was tight, could he defer payment for six months. A contract was drawn up regarding the terms, loanee was responsible for insurance, farrier and all feed and vet costs until the payment was complete six months down the line. Anyway, six months later, no money, he has had a bad time and was unable to pay but promised it in full if we gave him an extra 4 weeks. Still no money but the scenarion was begining to unfold. He has had my daughters horse running with the stallion for the last 4 months and as my daughter has been away, she was unaware of this. I told him we would be taking the horse, a thorougbred 15.3 mare away as he obviously had no intention of buying her. I was amazed at his attitude, he refused and said he wouldn't allow us to take the horse unless we paid full livery for the last 8 months and if a foal was born, he demanded the right to come and take it away. Now comes the best bit, when I pointed out the terms of the contract and how he had broken just about every point, he said, I didn't read the contract and trusted you not to mess me about after doing you a favour! The horse is in a massive field approximately 20-25 acres and is running not only with the stallion, but a small herd and I'm afraid to say she has been impossible to catch. If we could manage to put a lead rope over her, no problem, I would simply turn up with a box and lift her. The legal option seems to be the only way but from what I have been told, the yard owner is no stranger to litigation and knows how to get around things. A problem I know, any thoughts would be very welcome.
Pete.
 
I think you'll need to seek a soliciters advice. If you're a member of the BHS, they can offer a free legal helpline I think. But I'd definately go with seeking a soliciters advice and raise the subject now and find your rights and where you stand. Before you do anything, Give them a phone call and show them the documents.
 
Can you get some legal advice, does your daughter have BHS gold membership? Your household insurance might even provide advice.
On paper the horse is yours, the person who has her signed a loan document, you are entitled to have her back.
Unfortunately, this is another reminder to visit horses on loan regularly.
I think it's worth the owner continuing to insure loan horses as well. If the loan goes wrong, or the horse is injured, at least you know you've got some cover.
 
Surely when a horse goes on loan with view to buy the owner is not responsible for the livery costs, if you are a member of the BHS they have a legal help line which may be able to tell you the legallities of your situation. Hope you can get this sorted out, as for the passport they state they are not proof of ownership and must be with the person who is looking after the horse at the time which would be this man.
 
He accepted the contract initially so i wouldn't have thought he has a leg to stand on, may be worth joining the BHS gold to get some advice. He sounds to me like a typical bully who knows he doesn't have a leg to stand on but by threatening all sorts thinks you will back down. I would send him a recorded delivery letter stating the horse is to be returned on a certain day, if he fails to do so, notify the police, get as many gates as poss to build a pen, get all the horses in and take yours and tell him to whistle! Good luck, not a nice situation to be in and it is soo easy to sit here writing what we would all do.
 
Was it for a full loan? was your daughter riding at all? if no then if you are still down as the owner on the passport then take your horse away now.

He has broken his contract, simple as. If it went to court this would be the thing the judge would look at. All this 'he said-she said' means nothing unless it's down in black and white.

Why would you be paying livery if HE has had the horse on loan? Me thinks he is trying to pull a fast one.

Take the horse and get a vet out to check if she is indeed in foal. Unless he wanted her for breeding and this is in the contract he is liable to pay for your mare until she foals as she will not be able to be found a new home at this point and you will have to incur the cost of maintaining your mare.

I'm sure faced with a counter suite he will back down pretty quick.

Some people are bullies and will try it on. :mad:
 
Also remember if breeding was not in the contract as to what he could do with her while she was on loan, he has broken that agreement already, not that it sounds as if he cares about that. Once caught and home, do get an experienced stud vet to scan her for a foal because if she is in foal, you then have a counter claim against him for all the care and costs associated with that until the weaning of the foal; you won't have an automatic right to the foal, that would be his property of course. Another possible option but not as palatable, if it's not too late, would be for your vet to terminate the pregnancy asap.

Hopefully you still have the copies of the contract, which he should have signed as otherwise it could be hard to prove it's been as you say but the suggestions of legal advice are good ones. I do hope it works out for you, the mare's not in foal either and you let us know the outcome.
 
Thanks for all the above, all points are relevant. It was a full loan with view to buy after 6 months, my daughter reatained and still has the passport. I know we have a good and solid case but the problem is catching the mare otherwise I would simply lift her. Another point I forgot is that she is in an unsecure field. There is a gate but the padlock does not work and has seized. The gate opens out onto the main road and just 2 years ago, horses got out and one was killed. My daughters horse was put in this field without her knowledge and requests to move her have gone unheaded.
 
my daughter reatained and still has the passport
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Get your lorry and go collect the mare. If and when challenged ask for the police to be called. As you are in possession of the passport the police will not challenge the removal of the horse.

Then as MFH says - get your vet in and go from there.

Good luck. Let us know how you get on.
 
Get a group of friends and herd the horse into a pen/onto the lorry/etc -- get her out of there!

Alternatively the vets can dart her if it's truly that bad. Had to do this with a horse I helped "catch" once ... we were there for 6 hours a day for 5 days in a row and she remained impossible to even get near. We ACP'd her feed, etc etc etc ... and in the end the vet darted her. Cost the owner £300, though!
 
What a horrid situation for you- a similar thing happened to a friend who loaned her stallion out- he was supposed to be used only for BD dresage comps but was put out in a field to a group of mares instead without the Owners permission. They went for the expansive option. The phoned a vet, and the police to warn them of the situation. They took a number of people to act as witnesses and the vet using the same equiptment that t a zoo vet would use darted the stallion and they headcollared it and stayed with it untill it came round. It was then loaded onto the lorry (without partitions) and taken away. The couldnt catch it otherwise as it had begun to enjoy life with the mares- and an A road Dual carraigeway ran down the back of the field (A12) so they had no choice! Best of luck!!!!
 
The first thing to do is to catch her I'm afraid.

No matter what legal steps you - or he - may be able to take whilst he still has the mare he has the upper hand. It may be that you could sue for possession now - but even if a court grants an order if you can't catch her and he wants to ignore the court then you are right back to square one and minus legal fees.

Do whatever you need to to catch her. Be aware that you are on his land - but trespass is a civil offence. He cannot threaten you as that would be a criminal offence. He might try to call the police to say you are trying to steal his horse - but having the police on site is probably not a bad idea and you have the passport to prove she is yours.

There are all sorts of techniques for catching a horse in similar circumstances - you might want to do a forum search and see if you can find soemthing that seems to work with your mare.

Once you have her he will have to sue you for the sum claimed - which it sounds like he probably won't win. Failing to read a contract is not a defence!
 
what are you waiting for - just go and get her! The fact he didnt read the contract is his own silly fault and no defence in law! As for saying he wants the foal, you may wish to remind him you will be coming his way with any associated vets bills in pregnancy, and he has no right to the foal!
good luck and let us know how you get on.
 
He is trying to intimadate you ,take your mare and tell him you have taken legal advice, have a chat with police before going see if a community police officer will be present during removAl.Be careful who you tell so he dosnt get wind .If your mare is in foal you can sue him, or offer to sell the foal to him if you like when born ,but i would remove your horse asap
 
At the moment they can't catch the mare.
But surely, with a little bit of time, visiting her with treats, you could sort that out?
 
Tinypony said:
At the moment they can't catch the mare.
But surely, with a little bit of time, visiting her with treats, you could sort that out?
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I'm sorry but I think this is too risky - the more the OP goes to the mare, the more chance of the "loaner" getting wind of the plan.

OP, you need to go and get your mare back asap and quickly - whether this means getting the vet out or doing some nifty herding with a few horsie volunteers, you need to act fast. Do you have transport? If not, maybe someone on here can help you or you can hire something for the day.

Sort the legal stuff out later. She is still your mare and you are well within your rights to take her wherever you see fit.

Good luck & let us know how you get on
 
Hi guys, update on the situation. We have been "visiting" the mare and her confidence is coming back and she once agains responds to my daughters voice, turns and walks towards us but stops about 10 yards short and starts to graze. Walking to her has the effect of the mare keeping the distance but still grazing. Anyway, I went to see the yard owner to let him know in no uncertain terms that what he was doing was wrong. He took out his cheque book and wrote a cheque - result! Just got to wait to see if it clears.
 
Fingers crossed, please let us know how you get on.

(I was basing my comments about treats on the fact that it was clear the owners were visiting the horse).
 
I'm amazed you still want to sell your horse to this person. Oh well, if you have the money that's fine I suppose. It's the perfect example of why mine are staying right where they are and this post has been a timely reminder. Thank you.
 
brighteyes said:
I'm amazed you still want to sell your horse to this person. Oh well, if you have the money that's fine I suppose. It's the perfect example of why mine are staying right where they are and this post has been a timely reminder. Thank you.
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Hang on a minute, that's a bit unfair! Sometimes life throws you a curve ball and then circumstances take most choices out of your hands.

The poster has done the best for her daughters horse. Also, seeing as this most likely preganant mare is living a wild life running with a stallion and herd in a 25 acre field, it certainly hasn't turned out to bad. Well, as far as the mare is concerned no doubt.:D

Horses have no concept of contracts and cash, thankfully:rolleyes:
 
Thanks for that Elsebells. It was talked about that we should no longer entertain the thought of selling to this yard owner but the likely hood of having a pregnant mare returned to us was too much. "Sally", our mare, was obviously enjoying herself, she looked well but the overriding thought was that she would be out of work for a considerable time. This, coupled with the thoughts of the anxiety and stress we would put her through in trying to catch and relocate her on her own after living the free life with a herd, we decided it would be in her best interests to leave her to enjoy her retirement as a brood mare. We can at least keep visiting and see how she is getting on.
 
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