Just a rant - "is she insured"

[Polos Mum]

No point to this other than a rant

Following on from a long thread where there was some good points and some vet bashing. Sorry to bring this up again.

We had need to call vet this am to slightly colicy 30 y/o retired 12hh kids pony. Been with the vet practice 10 years and seen various vets from there multiple times in last 4 months (other old age issues).

Vet arrives, pony looks OK (not dramatic colic or anything)

First question - what are your plans for her (honestly not going to be on the Badminton start list this year)
Second question - is she insured

AHHHHHHHH
So badly timed,
So pointless (£k have been spent on pony largely with them so £ not a major factor),
Why isn't this on her records, why put the distressed owner through a known nasty question when the surgery must have this info
What difference does it make - who would honestly hand on heart recommend surgery for very aged, with tumors kids pony - insurance or not it would be not in the welfare interest of the animal to operate !

 

[meleeka]

What would the treatment/investigations been if she’d been insured I wonder? Aside from being unethical, I think don’t think it’s possible to insure a 30 year old pony for vets bills due to colic, so a pretty pointless question all round!

 

[Patterdale]

They have to ask. It can absolutely affect treatment given, because it affects the budget.
In answer to your later question - sadly, lots of people would put a 30yo pony through colic surgery, and would complain to the RCVS if the vet didn’t present it as an option.

Hope your pony is recovered now. The vet really wasn’t at fault here, they can’t do right for doing wrong.

 

[TheMule]

My vets ask 'would referral be an option' rather than about insurance (although I always volunteer that info because I think it is relevant.)
However, it would absolutely not offend me if they did ask… it's not just surgery that insurance money could pay for- supportive fluid therapy can quite quickly rack up into the 1000s and can make a difference to survival.

 

[AmyMay]

They have to ask. It can absolutely affect treatment given, because it affects the budget.
In answer to your later question - sadly, lots of people would put a 30yo pony through colic surgery, and would complain to the RCVS if the vet didn’t present it as an option.

Hope your pony is recovered now. The vet really wasn’t at fault here, they can’t do right for doing wrong.

This. Totally.

 

[meleeka]

They have to ask. It can absolutely affect treatment given, because it affects the budget.
In answer to your later question - sadly, lots of people would put a 30yo pony through colic surgery, and would complain to the RCVS if the vet didn’t present it as an option.

Hope your pony is recovered now. The vet really wasn’t at fault here, they can’t do right for doing wrong.

It wouldn’t affect my budget, or it seems the OP’s. My animals won’t ever be treated depending on how much in costs. It’s either in their best interests, or it’s not. It’s that clear cut to me.

I can’t imagine my vet being supportive if I said I wanted to put my 30 year old through colic surgery. Hypothetically speaking, she’d explain what a big op it was and how hard recovery would be and suggest it probably wouldn’t be in the ponies best interests, but obviously the final decision would be mine. I’m pretty certain the cost wouldn’t even come into the conversation and certainly not when the pony only has mild colic.

Actually thinking about it, the same thing did happen with my previous old pony. It wasn’t my usual vet, but referral wasn’t mentioned at all. She just gave painkillers, fluids and advice and said to see how she went. As it was, I called them back to PTS a couple of days later when it was clear she still wasn’t right.

 

[Polos Mum]

They have to ask. It can absolutely affect treatment given, because it affects the budget.

Why is this not on the surgery records. They don't need to ask it every time.

There are softer, nicer ways of asking what the budget for treatment is. Indeed - "what is the budget for treatment?" would be an ideal way of definitively working out what the £ situation might be.

Even if she was insured, and we'd answered yes, the chances colic was covered might be pretty slim.

It's too vague a question when that's not really the question they want to know.

Insurance might have exclusions / limits / high excess all sorts of things that impact budget.

If the need to know (as second question) what is the budget for treatment then they should be trained to ask "what is the budget for treatment"

 

[Patterdale]

It wouldn’t affect my budget, or it seems the OP’s. My animals won’t ever be treated depending on how much in costs. It’s either in their best interests, or it’s not. It’s that clear cut to me.

Hopefully your vet carries a crystal ball to know how to respond in all occasions to all different types of client.

 

[Polos Mum]

Hopefully your vet carries a crystal ball to know how to respond in all occasions to all different types of client.

I know it's not the vet at fault. it is their poor training / mega surgery training. But they are asking a question that's not really what they need to know.

I'm not suggesting that the vets don't need to discuss budget, clearly it's important.

But why oh why can't their surgery script tell them to ask a direct question that is truly relevant to all clients.

"What is the budget for treatment" surely that would be better for everyone, including the vets.

 

[Patterdale]

Why is this not on the surgery records. They don't need to ask it every time.

There are softer, nicer ways of asking what the budget for treatment is. Indeed - "what is the budget for treatment?" would be an ideal way of definitively working out what the £ situation might be.

a) they can’t keep this on the surgery records, it’s a variable question ie you can cancel or take out insurance at any time.
b) even if the above were possible, vets don’t have the time to nip back to the surgery and fire up the practice computer to check whether or not you were insured last time records were updated.
c) your vet is not a counsellor and is there to treat the animal effectively, not tiptoe around for the ‘softest, nicest’ way to communicate to every individual (wildly variable) client.
d) ‘what is the budget for treatment’ is a ridiculous and far more potentially offensive question.
How long is a piece of string?

Sorry, I am having a bad day so probably not as soft and nice as I could be but COME ON.

 

[Annagain]

Why is this not on the surgery records. They don't need to ask it every time.

There are softer, nicer ways of asking what the budget for treatment is. Indeed - "what is the budget for treatment?" would be an ideal way of definitively working out what the £ situation might be.

Even if she was insured, and we'd answered yes, the chances colic was covered might be pretty slim.

It's too vague a question when that's not really the question they want to know.

Insurance might have exclusions / limits / high excess all sorts of things that impact budget.

If the need to know (as second question) what is the budget for treatment then they should be trained to ask "what is the budget for treatment"

A pony that was insured last year or even last week, might not be this year/week so they need the up to date info.

My vet tends to tell me "These are the options if you're insured or in a position to pay, these are the more conservative options." and lets me offer the information. This is fine for me as I have a decent amount of savings specifically for vet bills that I pay into every month instead of insurance. I have the funds there if necessary but also wouldn't throw the kitchen sink at things if they're not guaranteed to work. It might sound a bit judgy if you don't have insurance / funds though so I suppose there's no perfect way to ask.

 

[Abacus]

Why is this not on the surgery records. They don't need to ask it every time.

Things can change. A horse that was insured last year might now not be, or vice versa.

They ask the question because it does for some owners affect the treatment routes. Say a treatment costing $500 had a 90% 'cure' rate, and one costing $1500 had 95%. If there is insurance it might make the difference of which to choose. It can also affect how quickly they need to act in some cases (or whether they can wait and see), where there is a limited period from the point of referral.

It's a relevant question, not all owners can afford to do the absolute utmost, if insurance isn't in place.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

They have to ask. It can absolutely affect treatment given, because it affects the budget.
In answer to your later question - sadly, lots of people would put a 30yo pony through colic surgery, and would complain to the RCVS if the vet didn’t present it as an option.

Hope your pony is recovered now. The vet really wasn’t at fault here, they can’t do right for doing wrong.

How many insurance companies would pay for colic surgery for a 30 yr old pony? You can't insure them except sometimes for accidental injury!
OP I understand exactly why you were annoyed.

 

[meleeka]

"What is the budget for treatment" surely that would be better for everyone, including the vets.

Or just “How far would you want to go with treatment?” The owner then has the option to say “Whatever it takes” or “I wouldn’t want to put her through surgery”.

When we discussed treatment for an old pony for something else, I was asked that question and I said I wouldn’t want to box her anywhere as it wouldn’t be fair. We then made a plan based on that.

 

[Polos Mum]

Patterdale - I hope you're day gets better.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Vets won't come unless the reception has booked them, it would take 30 seconds for reception to mention when scheduling the vet the recorded insurance status.
Insurance is only one way to pay a bill, there are many others (savings, credit cards etc.) so it's only part of the budget story and they must know by now it makes them sound terrible.

The above phrasing "XYZ is expensive options and ABC is more conservative" is much more balanced and less emotive

 

[Pearlsasinger]

How many insurance companies would pay for colic surgery for a 30 yr old pony? You can't insure them except sometimes for accidental injury!
OP I understand exactly why you were annoyed.

My vets' receptionist would have asked the question when taking the details to arrange the visit.

 

[ycbm]

Things can change. A horse that was insured last year might now not be, or vice versa.

They ask the question because it does for some owners affect the treatment routes. Say a treatment costing $500 had a 90% 'cure' rate, and one costing $1500 had 95%. If there is insurance it might make the difference of which to choose. It can also affect how quickly they need to act in some cases (or whether they can wait and see), where there is a limited period from the point of referral.

It's a relevant question, not all owners can afford to do the absolute utmost, if insurance isn't in place.

It's not the right question. The question is whether you can fund it, not where the funds are coming from. The vet can't assume that "no I'm not insured" means "no I can't pay". Nor can they assume that "yes I'm insured" means "yes I would submit my horse to a colic operation" because a lot of insured people won't.

 

[ester]

How many insurance companies would pay for colic surgery for a 30 yr old pony? You can't insure them except sometimes for accidental injury!
OP I understand exactly why you were annoyed.

I’m not sure any would … when I had F PP was the longest in that you could keep full cover until 25

 

[paddy555]

First question - what are your plans for her (honestly not going to be on the Badminton start list this year)
Second question - is she insured

I was asked this about a colic horse last week.
The horse had nephrosplenic entrapment.

The first vet visit just established colic, the second after no improvement, the reason for it.

The vet said she was asking early on about my plans so we were all aware of the way forward. She also wanted to know as it would affect her treatment of him. That didn't mean whether it would be cheap or expensive treatment but what she would actually do to him.

The choices were surgery or fill him up with painkillers and hope he could sort it himself. If he was going for surgery she would, I guess, have limited the painkillers so the hospital could see the problem more clearly.



There was no way she could have looked at his notes (or my vet account) as it was an emergency call out out of hours and she didn't have time.

I'm not sure insurance status is mentioned on my notes. I have never given it.

 

[Snowfilly]

It’s a daft question for the pony in question. What sort of insurance even exists for a 30 year old pony?

‘What level of treatment would you be comfortable with for her?’ Is a much better option. Even if you could afford it, most people wouldn’t in your position.

 

[cauda equina]

My vets' receptionist would have asked the question when taking the details to arrange the visit.

What about OOH visits? presumably you ring the vet directly, no receptionist involved

I wouldn't be remotely bothered about being asked if mine are insured

 

[Errin Paddywack]

When mine had what turned out to be fatal colic, the vet asked me if she was a candidate for surgery. I said no. No question about insurance or cost.

 

[Smogul]

They have to ask. It can absolutely affect treatment given, because it affects the budget.
In answer to your later question - sadly, lots of people would put a 30yo pony through colic surgery, and would complain to the RCVS if the vet didn’t present it as an option.

Hope your pony is recovered now. The vet really wasn’t at fault here, they can’t do right for doing wrong.

Totally agree that vets can't win. We took our elderly cat to the vet. She had multiple conditions. Vet said he had to run through all the options, however much he would try and steer us away from some oof them, so we couldn't come back and say we had not been told that they could do x, y or z.

Also, asking about insurance is perfectly valid. Vet doesn't know your finances!

 

[Beausmate]

I took my dog in for her prescription check las week. Across the top of her notes, in big letters was NOT INSURED. It's the first time I've noticed this. CVS-owned practice.

 

[Abacus]

It's not the right question. The question is whether you can fund it, not where the funds are coming from. The vet can't assume that "no I'm not insured" means "no I can't pay". Nor can they assume that "yes I'm insured" means "yes I would submit my horse to a colic operation" because a lot of insured people won't.

It’s not the perfect question but in most cases it’s a lead up to the other questions - if the answer is no, normally a conversation about the options and budget, as well as (if the answer is yes) timescales - because if insured this condition will only be covered for a period and so you may want to start treatment sooner rather than wait and see.

It’s not just about affordability but other factors.

 

[Goldenstar]

I think it’s a question that can be posed in a better way.
I way too much of a control freak for insurance .
I think asking the question before they have their hands on the horse is not a good look.
But vets must raise the issue of costs at some point with things like colic they also need to and ought to raise the issue of the best interests of the horse if the owner does not because it’s so important for everyone to know where they stand .

But some vets do march and say is it insured before they have opened the door of the stable .

 

[suestowford]

When mine had what turned out to be fatal colic, the vet asked me if she was a candidate for surgery. I said no. No question about insurance or cost.

Exactly the same here.

This question does divide opinion doesn't it? But it's important to know, and as has been pointed out, insurance status can change so their records are not always up to date. I would have thought it's a necessary question, if the owner is hoping to fund treatment partly through insurance or not, as the vet may need to run it past the insurers first, before deciding what to do.
We all know that insurers try not to pay out if they can wriggle out of it, and they may refuse to fund treatment if not consulted first, especially if that will result in more payouts like Loss of Use. I don't think that applies here to a 30 yr old pony, but asking the question could be a habit and the vet just didn't think.
There are nicer ways to find out but in an emergency I'd rather the vet was concentrating on the sick animal, rather than niceties.

 

[meleeka]

Vets must know it’s impossible to insure a 30 year old pony for vets fees surely?

 

[Goldenstar]

You are assuming they knew the age of the pony .

 

[ester]

Quite, presume on auto-mode/habit/hadn’t checked age before visit as while I usually get why they ask this one was a bit pointless