‘Scar tissue’ noted on vetting is actually recurring abscess?

lialls

lialls

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I bought a horse in Sept 2019, on viewing it had a lump under its jaw with a fresh scab on it. Sales lively said they had accidentally cut the mare while clipping her 3 days perviously. I appointed the vet to 5 stage vet the horse and highlighted this lump and also the horses front leg confirmation to them. I said I wanted to use the horse for low level RC, general riding and hunting.

4 days after viewing the horse, the vet reported from the vetting that the lump was old scar tissue probably from a previous abscess that had accidentally been caught with the clippers and was nothing to worry about. The leg confirmation although unsightly didn’t appear to be having an impact on the horse currently and she is sound. the vet did not think that either issue were a problem for my intended use of the horse.

I picked up the horse 2 days later. a week passed and the horse was displaying poor behaviour and the lump had still not healed and was bleeding intermittently. I called the vets and explained that I was concerned that this lump wasn’t healing after 2 weeks and could it be causing pain which was effecting the horses behaviour? could it be a tooth absces? I took the horse to the vets, they examined the horse again and said that she wasn’t in pain anywhere, the lump wasn’t causing any pain (I find this hard to believe as it was bleeding) so there was no obvious signs of pain that could be causing her poor behaviour, they confirmed again that it was just scar tissue.

another week or 2 passed, the cut healed fully and then reopened, draining about a table spoon of yellow puss, plus some yellow snot from 1 nostril. i rang the vets again, they were concerned it was strangles so I took the horse in again. They said that this was really common for old abscess sites to rumble on like this, to heal and reopen etc and it was what they expected. I was quite surprised as I was told from the vetting that it was scar tissue. I asked what the treatment is and was told due to the area it would be a complicated operation, but the vet was still confident that this abscess wasn’t contributing to the horses behaviour. The vet swabbed for strangles.

results came back as negative. the lump drained and healed again over the next 2 weeks.

This morning it’s back again draining yellow puss and yellow snot.

Where to I stand with the vets? Do I speak to the vet who vetted her and over saw the other consultations or the practise manager?

I was led to believe that it was scar tissue, I would not expect scar tissue to open up and bleed\weep, and then to then be told that they expected it to rumble on like this I’m a bit annoyed. Aside from the behavioural issues, had I have known that this would be an on going issue I would not have bought her. I can’t take a horse to RC with it dripping blood and puss so I’m not sure how they thought she would be suitable for a RC home if they expected this lump to rumble on like this.

I’m thinking about getting a second opinion on the lump as I’d really like to get to the bottom of it for the horses sake.

What would you do both in regard to the vets and the lump?
 
I would listen to the vets, and do something about the lump. It's certainly not something that would cause the horse to be warranted as unsound and sounds more like an unsightly blemish. There are various things that can be done (such as poulticing) to help clear up the oozing.
 
Amymay said:
You’ll need to get the jaw x-rayed as it’s quite possibly a dental issue - which would probably need addressing under general anaesthetic. Are they the same vets that did the vetting?
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yes same vet who vetted and then did follow ups.

i directly asked the vet if it could be related to her teeth, he said no, it was free from the bone and any internal structures but to me it seems odd that she has yellow snot the same time as the lump drains.
 
lialls said:
yes same vet who vetted and then did follow ups.

i directly asked the vet if it could be related to her teeth, he said no, it was free from the bone and any internal structures but to me it seems odd that she has yellow snot the same time as the lump drains.
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Where exactly is the lump?
 
Cortez said:
I would listen to the vets, and do something about the lump. It's certainly not something that would cause the horse to be warranted as unsound and sounds more like an unsightly blemish. There are various things that can be done (such as poulticing) to help clear up the oozing.
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the vets have basically said not to bother wasting any money on it, the horse isn’t worth much with it’s current behavioural issues And in their experience the only way to deal with it is to operate. I asked about antibotics but was told in their previous experience they would not be suitable for an abscess in this location.
 
I would want it xrayed asap and see what shows, as it was seen at vetting you will not be covered by your own insurance but should be by the vets own cover as you are dealing with the same ones, for now it makes sense to stick with them, get a proper diagnosis, they should have taken swabs some time ago, not just for strangles, then address the situation once you know exactly what you are dealing with.
 
lialls said:
the vets have basically said not to bother wasting any money on it, the horse isn’t worth much with it’s current behavioural issues And in their experience the only way to deal with it is to operate. I asked about antibotics but was told in their previous experience they would not be suitable for an abscess in this location.
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Sorry but that is totally unacceptable, the horse was purchased because they passed it and the behaviour may well be due to whatever is going on, they may not want you to pursue this because they know they should be paying for the treatment, the correct antibiotics may be suitable but it sounds as if they are totally disinterested.
 
lialls said:
the vets have basically said not to bother wasting any money on it, the horse isn’t worth much with it’s current behavioural issues And in their experience the only way to deal with it is to operate. I asked about antibotics but was told in their previous experience they would not be suitable for an abscess in this location.
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What sort of blumming vets are you dealing with???

If this is tooth related it could easily explain behaviour and for the horses sake needs to be investigated/treated
 
lialls said:
under her jaw bone, where head sets on to neck
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Which must be very painful.....

I absolutely agree with BP. What on earth are they playing at?

In your shoes I’d want target antibiotics and an x-ray. How you then proceed with the vets is up to you, but I think I’d be making it clear to them that going forward all costs are to be met by them.

Once they know what’s going on this is probably an ‘easy’ fix, providing it’s treated properly and with due diligence. However, it’s potentially a costly fix.
 
Generally yellow goo snot is a sign of infection. Clear mucous is a sign of inflammation/irritation. As strangles was cleared that great, but evidently there’s some pathogen in the ear/nose/throat/gum area that the immune system is cycling through trying to kill off. As its recurring and not resolving itself more swabs are needed, as mentioned.
Could be infected tooth, that would cause behaviour issues and drainage site nearby.

I’d try a different vet, if insistence on further disgnostics is not welcomed by current vets.
 
Not sure if it’s similar but when I bought my horse years ago, I missed, and so did the vet (☹️) that he had a wound under his jaw. It was winter and he had a thick coat. It kept oozing pus so I took him to my vet (not the rubbish one who vetted him). His jaw was xrayed and the head vet, who said he’d never seen anything like it before, said it looked as though the horse had put head down to eat and impaled itself under the jaw on a branch or something similar. After a course of antibiotics (I remember injecting myself himself daily), he was fine. He now has a crescent shaped scar there. I don’t recall, however, a snotty nose.
 
I once knew of a horse who had spells of chronic rearing under saddle. It would go months at a time without doing it then have a period of a few days or weeks where it would rear pretty much every time it was ridden. Over about 3 years it had pretty much every check the vets could think of, all turning up nothing, until one vet found a tooth abscess hidden under one of its back teeth. It had a rather complicated and expensive operation and after recovery was a joy to ride. There was no apparent external pain or any sign of it externally at all, so I really struggle to understand why your vets were so sure of ruling pain out completely.

Really tricky situation for you to be in, it sounds like you've been really let down. I agree with others, I think you have to push for this vets to cover the cost of further investigation
 
I would really try and get them to cover the cost for an x ray of the mouth at the very least! I can't believe they have said that about using antibiotics that's rubbish off course it's an infection it definitely needs antibiotics, my horse had antibiotics both times he has had a guttural pouch infection even after they flushed them, I would in your situation also want the pouches scoped my horse had yellow coming out of his nose both times he had the infection in his guttural pouch, I can't believe the vet has not even explored this it's a serious condition and shouldn't be left.
 
be positive said:
Sorry but that is totally unacceptable, the horse was purchased because they passed it and the behaviour may well be due to whatever is going on, they may not want you to pursue this because they know they should be paying for the treatment, the correct antibiotics may be suitable but it sounds as if they are totally disinterested.
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This, totally! I would be so angry. I do not have the money for operation and insurance would not cover it as it is a preexisting condition so I would have to PTS. I would have lost the purchase price and transport costs, veterinary investigation costs and the cost of PTS and disposal. Plus all the emotional heartache. All because they said it was scar tissue. So if it was me I would insist the vet treatment for this was totally free. If they refused I would sadly PTS then take the vet to small claims court to get all the costs back. I would not be able to pay for treatment then take them to court for those costs only, which would be the ideal thing to do, because if I lost the court case I would be left in financial difficulties for having paid the vet bill. If you can persuade these vets to do the treatment then refused to pay after they would have to take you to court to get the money. There is still a risk of losing but when the judge heard the story I do not think they would be very impressed with the vets and even if you lost the judges might force the vet to accept a small monthly payment. Could you trust this vets to do the treatment though given their attitude towards the situation?
 
ester said:
I'm also baffled that they had you in when they said they were concerned about strangles?!

Who is the senior vet in the practice? the one who vetted her or someone else?
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I thought this too. I am wondering if the poster is in an area or country where getting a specialist horse vet is not possible and is maybe using a general animal vet.
 
I am near Hereford, I use my next nearest vets as they have a good rep with horses and have previously been very good.

i will have to do some reasearch on who to use for a second opinion as my local vets are more a small animal practise.

just to confirm, they were concerned that my horse had strangles due to the location of the lump and the snot.
 
Firefly9410 said:
This, totally! I would be so angry. I do not have the money for operation and insurance would not cover it as it is a preexisting condition so I would have to PTS. I would have lost the purchase price and transport costs, veterinary investigation costs and the cost of PTS and disposal. Plus all the emotional heartache. All because they said it was scar tissue. So if it was me I would insist the vet treatment for this was totally free. If they refused I would sadly PTS then take the vet to small claims court to get all the costs back. I would not be able to pay for treatment then take them to court for those costs only, which would be the ideal thing to do, because if I lost the court case I would be left in financial difficulties for having paid the vet bill. If you can persuade these vets to do the treatment then refused to pay after they would have to take you to court to get the money. There is still a risk of losing but when the judge heard the story I do not think they would be very impressed with the vets and even if you lost the judges might force the vet to accept a small monthly payment. Could you trust this vets to do the treatment though given their attitude towards the situation?
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Thank You, I have planned what I’m going to say when I call the vets tomorrow. They are usually very good so I’m really disappointed, a change in vets at the same practise might be enough to get some action though.
 
Sounds like a dental issue or a foreign body. I would get the horse seen by a decent equine vet, starting with X-rays to see what’s going on. I honestly wouldn’t bother going back to your usual vets, they don’t sound very good tbh, asking to bring in a horse they suspect to have strangles would be a big red flag to me.
 
ester said:
I'm also baffled that they had you in when they said they were concerned about strangles?!

Who is the senior vet in the practice? the one who vetted her or someone else?
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they have a team of 4 veterinary surgeon directors, i‘ve used the same vet through out (vetting and x2 consultations) who is one of the 4, can’t seem to see on the website if they have a practise manager or head vet.
 
AandK said:
Sounds like a dental issue or a foreign body. I would get the horse seen by a decent equine vet, starting with X-rays to see what’s going on. I honestly wouldn’t bother going back to your usual vets, they don’t sound very good tbh, asking to bring in a horse they suspect to have strangles would be a big red flag to me.
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they were pretty sure she didn’t have it but wanted to rule it out. I just feel a bit like they have wasted my money as they didn’t check for anything else when they swabbed her which would have been easily done at the same time.
 
I think your first contact is the senior vet at your practice and have a serious talk and try to get some action, don't be fobbed off.

If they are still dragging their feet, then a call tot he BHS and/or horse solicitor for a letter to the practice.
Three Counties near Upton upon Severn could give a second opinion.

Definitely need to get to the bottom of the problem.
 
Firefly9410 said:
I thought this too. I am wondering if the poster is in an area or country where getting a specialist horse vet is not possible and is maybe using a general animal vet.
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Actually I had a strangles test at the RVC in similar circumstances. Strangles had actually been ruled out but when i got there the vet tested as a matter of course as they couldn't risk a horse with strangles as an inpatient.

He had what was thought to be an abscess which was treated with antibiotics and came back as soon as the course was stopped. Hadn't had anything before.

In this horses case's it turned out to be a fistula opening into the salivary gland. It was diagnosed by CT scan and needed an op under GA so a very expensive fix. On the plus side although the op was tricky as it's a difficult area to operate in, the prognosis was good and no problems after.
 
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