‘Sore’ saddles…

[holeymoley]

I’m losing the will with my saddle. I can’t take it anymore .

I never noticed at first, I think it’s something that’s been happening subconsciously over time, and I don’t ride as much now as I used to so I would’ve maybe given up on it before now if I was riding more. I find it quite sore on my lady parts, so much so I’ve realised I’m now sitting more on my seat bones to avoid the pain. This is then moving my overall position which is resulting in upper back pain.

It’s a lovely saddle, but I’ve since heard this is quite common with this brand of saddle (K&M). I’m used to Ideals and working hunter/show/dressage cut saddles so I do sit with quite a classical seat. My saddle fitter specialises in Thorowgoods and K&Ms so we decided that since my gelding had changed shape and was reducing workload (21 now) we would try something with a changeable gullet with more scope to adjust if needed. I can’t fault the saddle in that sense, but it’s just not for me.

Do we go back to what we know that fits?! At the moment trying to find a second hand black Ideal in 16/16.5 is like hen’s teeth.

Just a bit of a musing I guess, has anyone on here had the same problem with K&M saddles?

 

[ester]

Wintec are worse for it for me but I have had an issue on a K&M one too just not soo bad. Fine on my own ideals too

The biggest/easiest thing that makes a difference to me (and my mum so it’s genetic ) is to use some of my cycling cream (paceline chamois buttr her) which helps the friction issue. I have also been known to ride in cheap cycling under knickers (not shorts you end up with too much bulk) so then you have a shiny lining and cream.

If it were my own horse though I’d get another saddle

 

[Petmurf]

Same problem in my K&M saddle, if I’m out for a longish hack then I’ll wear cycling knickers and use Chamois cream which really does help, I’ve also got a HM seat saver which also helps.

 

[ester]

I find my HM seat saver usually works to make the saddle a bit shallower and then less of a pommel but it’s a bit saddle dependent.

 

[JGC]

Yes, Wintecs and KanMs do the same for me and I've ridden in a bunch of different models over the years. As others say, cycling underwear and chamois cream will help, but I've never found a definitive fix for it personally.

 

[maya2008]

I use a Seatsaver on my rock hard Thorowgood. Nice comfy Acavallo gel one. Still bruises my knees though.

 

[sbloom]

Everyone's pelvis is different, yet saddles are made with little regard to either the commonest shapes let alone the less common ones. Also bear in mind that pretty much all changeable headplate saddles are made on solid plastic trees which are not comfortable. Instead there is more foam added, a wider seat, carving away the twist, adding padded skirts and cutting pieces out for "comfort". None of it gets to the main issue.

The fix is to find something that actually suits your pelvis. Maria Hallring has pioneered an off-horse pelvic assessment and more fitters, mostly via Caroline Lindsay in the UK, are being trained in it. There won't be change in the industry yet (only one brand designed around this concept) but it will have to change, eventually.

I used to always ride in a 17.5 and always had to rock back into "posterior tilt" ie tipping my pelvis back, to avoid pain. Although I don't think any had a truly narrow twist the larger the seat size, all other things being equal, the narrower a saddle will ride.

Some riders can cope with the pain and, especially dressage riders having to drill sitting trot, it's not unknown to have to shower to be able to even remove their underwear. Other sports don't have to put up with this and neither should we - although I no longer have a horse I now know that I CAN sit on my seat in three points, properly, in neutral pelvis without effort. It just needs the right saddle - and once we can sit like this, plus being over our feet and in inward rotation in our hips (wider horses and saddle designs can really hinder this) then it helps the horse to work more correctly through its thoracic sling, a massive key to long term soundness.

This is a great write up by an audience member from a demo put on a couple of weeks ago that I helped with

https://www.facebook.com/emmamaloneequestrian/posts/pfbid0QFVWkmtLsfYR1K683yxrVsTteAhWQYRsRAEvFPcR8wCPohp8vT6mpEYVHoFUKwWrl

If your horse moves just as well or ideally better, and you sit without pain, then go back to the Ideal. I can't see why any saddle fitter would want to stick to just K&M/Thorowgood personally and am not a fan of changeable headplates for all sorts of reasons, but hopefully they can help you with the Ideal. Almost all saddle types or designs work for some people/horse combos but some do show the same issues for broad sections of the horsey population and if you only stock effectively one brand you'll hit that problem regularly.

Depending on budget there may of course be much better options out there for both of you.

 

[HelenBack]

I got a cheap second hand Thorowgood when I got my new horse just to tide me over. I sort of find it a lot more comfortable than I thought I would do and I like the fact that it's dead easy to keep clean. My problem is really the opposite of your though. If find that it puts me in a chair seat so I'm sat more on my bum with my legs and feet then too far forwards. I'm naturally quite a slobby rider so this is actually quite pleasant for hacking but if I go over a certain distance I do end up with quite a sore ar*e!

On reflection I had the same model in a K&M for my other horse years ago and that did tip me forward so I was on my front bits then. I presume it must be differences in the shape of the horses underneath the saddle and I'm a bit fatter now too which doesn't help. Either way, I've never been a big fan other than the price and am saving up now for something more suitable.

I definitely understand where you're coming from given your horse is older now and doing less. Maybe try the underwear / seat saver options described above and try and keep a look out for a second hand Ideal in the meantime?

 

[JackFrost]

@sbloom Do you know HOW 'Maria created an imprint of the rider's pelvis using corrugated cardboard'?
Is this something you can do in the privacy of your own home? (visions of sitting in a bath of wet papier mache )

I have read is that it is very hard to discern pelvic shape other than by xray. It is said that there are 4 pelvic shapes for women - do all women clearly fall into one of 4 types?

 

[SEL]

A few years ago doing a long weekend trekking in Wales my v experienced friend had been given a lovely horse to ride but after lunch on day 1 she asked if I'd swap with her. The guide (male) was a bit put out - it was a very nice horse and I was on a cob - but after an hour of riding I realised why. No matter how much shifting around in the saddle neither of us could help but sit on part of our anatomy that was much too sensitive for that!! The horse belonged to the male guide so I guess the saddle was set up for him.

The next day Very Nice Horse was left at home.....

If you're on the 2nd hand FB sites for saddles OP then put a request out for what you want. There's lots of people like me hoarding old saddles because we're too lazy to advertise them

 

[ester]

Interesting re the plastic trees SB.

Tbf I think until relatively recently pain was expected for cyclists too and even then it’s not just saddle fit that feeds into the equation but the whole bike fit. With mine we’ve recently discovered that in trying to reduce the stretch to the handlebars by pulling the saddle forwards the different angle to the centre of the pedals is enough to give me pain/more pain.


I didn’t notice a massive issue on the KM when riding (poss as was schooling rather than just sitting in walk) but I did notice it if I then got ok the bike the next day.

SEL I was very relieved to find on our multi day ride a couple of years ago they were using thorowgood trek saddles not a wintec version

 

[sbloom]

If find that it puts me in a chair seat so I'm sat more on my bum with my legs and feet then too far forwards. I'm naturally quite a slobby rider so this is actually quite pleasant for hacking but if I go over a certain distance I do end up with quite a sore ar*e!

Unfortunately being on our seatbones is less than ideal for the horse - not only is the weight concentrated on a smaller area (making a large panel kind of irrelevant) but it's also further back meanining we're loading the most forward point of the psoas which is now thought to be the biggest issue with saddle balance and saddle length. Psoas connects to the spine at T17/18. We all do it or have done it, it's hard not to do it on wider horses but it really is ideal to be on our whole pelvis, in neutral so our discs etc do what they've been designed to do, and over our feet. Helps us and massively helps the horse.

@sbloom Do you know HOW 'Maria created an imprint of the rider's pelvis using corrugated cardboard'?
Is this something you can do in the privacy of your own home? (visions of sitting in a bath of wet papier mache )

I have read is that it is very hard to discern pelvic shape other than by xray. It is said that there are 4 pelvic shapes for women - do all women clearly fall into one of 4 types?

Absolutely I know how, I do it on nearly all my fittings . You need someone trained to do it, unfortunately people see it on a demo and go off and start doing it with their own customers. It's nuanced and needs a good eye, training and experience to do it properly. Watch out for demos near you.

We are not determining overall pelvic shape, we are looking solely at outlet shape which is the important bit for saddle fitting. And no, the 4 types are being gradually rejected as there are as many fall in between as there are clearly identifiable shapes, and women aren't that different from men either.

 

[Wheresthehoofpick]

Another thing to consider with discomfort is vaginal atrophy which is due to a lack of oestrogen. Menopause or breast feeding can be the reason.

It is treated with oestrogen pessaries.

The thinning and dryness of the tissues can make you a lot less tolerant to seat and saddle position.

 

[Meredith]

With apologies @holeymoley
I am hoping others would like to know the answer to this

@sbloom or any one else.
Where do I find someone who will fit a saddle this way please? Is there an association or main practitioner ( Maria Hallring ) who would know others who fit saddles this way?

It is an interesting thought about the menopause. Having ridden since I was 11 my problem probably began soon after the menopause but I had not realised a possible link.

I know, as others do, that certain brands now don’t seem to suit. On various horses I have suffered in an Albion, slid about in an Ideal Grandee, had some minor success in a Harry Dabbs ( I think ) GP freedom half panel which was too short in the hip/ knee size and then a Jeffries F1 jump which was OK ish but tilted me forward. At the moment I am putting up with a K&M Original jump on my Connemara but it can make me sore.

 

[Red-1]

I had this issue back in 2011, I was lucky to have Barrie Swain come and fit a dressage saddle for us - one of his SemiFlex.

He talked me through why this happens and made the saddle just right, wide for seat bones, narrow twist, no rubbing. It was even a smaller size than I *thought* I would need, as it was balanced.

I have changed horses twice and the saddle moved with each horse. The current fitter did say that with the Semiflex, some are great and some have not stood the test of time, but mine is sound. The Semiflex design seems to suit a variety of shapes.

Barrie Swain went out of business, but he had someone work with him on designs, Nick Dolman. He now has his own business; his saddles look very similar and I have spoken with him and he seems to have tweaked the design (slightly less flex) but I would say would be a good person to have a conversation with.

There are loads of SemiFlex secondhand, as well as Dolman saddles, but bear in mind that not every saddler is familiar with adjusting them as they are constructed slightly differently.

 

[sbloom]

The menopause can certainly cause more discomfort, often revealing what was previously an minor issue.

Caroline Lindsay, Vet Physio, may be able to direct you to a local fitter, I know of three of us using these techniques. Maria is in Sweden, she does her thing, she does want this to move across the industry, but she's only training a small number of people and in the UK these are her own fitters. It will be possible for English speaking bodyworkers etc to train with her in October in her "VBR" approach which I think includes the rider assessment.

Dolman saddles mostly have a particular seat shape, I've not assessed them since being trained this way, but they tend to have a narrower twist and wider seat, will suit some but not others. As always, if you're working with one maker/fitter or specialist brands with specialist fitters do read up about their customer service etc as you may not be able to get the saddle fitted well elsewhere, as @Red-1 alludes to.

 

[Roxylola]

I follow these saddle threads with interest as the developments are fascinating imo. I do always find it interesting that albion seem to be very marmite, my favourite jump saddle was an albion which on paper with an 18 inch seat should have been entirely wrong for 5'2 (at best) me. And yet everything just felt right in it in a way that nothing has before or since.

 

[Annagain]

HM - I read an article the other day about Ideal launching their own adjustable tree saddles. They're very new so I doubt there'd be any second hand yet but it might provide both you and the horse with what you need?

 

[sbloom]

I follow these saddle threads with interest as the developments are fascinating imo. I do always find it interesting that albion seem to be very marmite, my favourite jump saddle was an albion which on paper with an 18 inch seat should have been entirely wrong for 5'2 (at best) me. And yet everything just felt right in it in a way that nothing has before or since.

Not if you fit saddles to pelvic size/shape, however also bear in mind that comfort and preference does not always match functionality. I see plenty of riders who are very comfortable behind their feet and with a tilted pelvis and they can actually initially dislike being put in a more functional position. I had one customer took 4 months to get used to it and now you couldn't prise the saddle out of her "cold dead hands"

 

[sbloom]

HM - I read an article the other day about Ideal launching their own adjustable tree saddles. They're very new so I doubt there'd be any second hand yet but it might provide both you and the horse with what you need?

I don't know the T&T range in the flesh, though it has been around for a small number of years, but they will be on plastic trees, unless tech has come on without me knowing, and may have similar issues. The seats certainly won't be the same as the one that holeymoley likes, plus there is only a very limited range available so not much choice in tree and panel shape AND the headplates are narrow, like other changeable headplate saddles. I prefer a medium wide head for a wide range of wither shapes.

 

[Annagain]

I don't know the T&T range in the flesh, though it has been around for a small number of years, but they will be on plastic trees, unless tech has come on without me knowing, and may have similar issues. The seats certainly won't be the same as the one that holeymoley likes, plus there is only a very limited range available so not much choice in tree and panel shape AND the headplates are narrow, like other changeable headplate saddles. I prefer a medium wide head for a wide range of wither shapes.

Yes I did wonder if they'd dome with the same issues as other adjustable saddles but thought it could be worth a look.

 

[holeymoley]

Thanks guys. It all sounds really interesting and looks like we should really factor pelvic shapes more in to saddle production. For it to be such a common problem with K&M I’m surprised they are such a popular make. I discreetly mentioned it to a lady at the yard as to whether she had any issues of the sort with her K&M and she said that she did, the saddler tries to help by fixing the skirt flocking whatever that is?! No idea how that would help as surely it’s the general shape of the tree that’s the problem.

I’ve managed to come across a nice little Heritage working hunter saddle which looks exactly like my previous Ideal looked like. Hopefully this may be a go-er. The bonus too is that I can get a good price for the K&M.

Eta- interesting to hear about the changes through menopause or with lack of oestrogen. I don’t think that is what’s causing mine though, I do think it’s just the shape of the seat that’s not akin to my anatomy.

 

[sbloom]

I discreetly mentioned it to a lady at the yard as to whether she had any issues of the sort with her K&M and she said that she did, the saddler tries to help by fixing the skirt flocking whatever that is?! No idea how that would help as surely it’s the general shape of the tree that’s the problem.

The skirt is the bit over the stirrup bar so no flocking there (as I think you probably already know) so I think it's a case of Chinese whispers.

There are many brands out there that do an even better job with marketing than they do with their saddles. SMS saddle fitters have a broad requirement to stock British saddles, multiple lines, and the training is based on a large proportion of Fairfax stable saddles (K&M and TG included). When I went to the intro weekend there were a few Albions, Hastilows (on similar trees to Fairfax group saddles) I think a GFS or two, and then at least 50% Fairfax group.

I will warn that saddles can look very similar and ride completely different - I can transform how a saddle feels for a rider with a 5mm foam shim somewhere under the flaps for them, or by changing to the next seat size up or down, it's astonishing how much detail matters. Fingers crossed you both like it!

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I find it quite sore on my lady parts, so much so I’ve realised I’m now sitting more on my seat bones to avoid the pain.

My saddle is a K&M to and I have exactly this problem! I posted on a saddle page and lots of people said the same.

If I’m honest I’ve hated it since the first week but stuck with it, always put me in the wrong position.

The forum all said the saddle was fitted poorly, too narrow and therefore tipping me at a wrong angle. Been riding bareback for the last week and what a difference, she is striding out much better to the point she keeps up with a friends horse she use to get left behind. I also feel better bareback than I do in the saddle..

Have an app this weekend to hopefully get something else fitted but aware being 17” back, XX wide with huge shoulders isn’t easy!

 

[holeymoley]

The skirt is the bit over the stirrup bar so no flocking there (as I think you probably already know) so I think it's a case of Chinese whispers.

There are many brands out there that do an even better job with marketing than they do with their saddles. SMS saddle fitters have a broad requirement to stock British saddles, multiple lines, and the training is based on a large proportion of Fairfax stable saddles (K&M and TG included). When I went to the intro weekend there were a few Albions, Hastilows (on similar trees to Fairfax group saddles) I think a GFS or two, and then at least 50% Fairfax group.

I will warn that saddles can look very similar and ride completely different - I can transform how a saddle feels for a rider with a 5mm foam shim somewhere under the flaps for them, or by changing to the next seat size up or down, it's astonishing how much detail matters. Fingers crossed you both like it!

Yes, I couldn't figure it myself, I always thought the skirt was the little flap that covered the stirrup bar. Her saddler is very highly thought of and the apparent bees knees in our area. I don't doubt that she isn't good but I just can't take to her as a person.

 

[Birker2020]

I’m losing the will with my saddle. I can’t take it anymore .

I never noticed at first, I think it’s something that’s been happening subconsciously over time, and I don’t ride as much now as I used to so I would’ve maybe given up on it before now if I was riding more. I find it quite sore on my lady parts, so much so I’ve realised I’m now sitting more on my seat bones to avoid the pain. This is then moving my overall position which is resulting in upper back pain.

It’s a lovely saddle, but I’ve since heard this is quite common with this brand of saddle (K&M). I’m used to Ideals and working hunter/show/dressage cut saddles so I do sit with quite a classical seat. My saddle fitter specialises in Thorowgoods and K&Ms so we decided that since my gelding had changed shape and was reducing workload (21 now) we would try something with a changeable gullet with more scope to adjust if needed. I can’t fault the saddle in that sense, but it’s just not for me.

Do we go back to what we know that fits?! At the moment trying to find a second hand black Ideal in 16/16.5 is like hen’s teeth.

Just a bit of a musing I guess, has anyone on here had the same problem with K&M saddles?

Can you buy a seat saver?

 

[holeymoley]

Can you buy a seat saver?

I have one but feel that it's the general shape of the saddle that just doesn't suit. Probably best just to cut my losses and get something that works for us.

 

[Sossigpoker]

Thanks guys. It all sounds really interesting and looks like we should really factor pelvic shapes more in to saddle production. For it to be such a common problem with K&M I’m surprised they are such a popular make. I discreetly mentioned it to a lady at the yard as to whether she had any issues of the sort with her K&M and she said that she did, the saddler tries to help by fixing the skirt flocking whatever that is?! No idea how that would help as surely it’s the general shape of the tree that’s the problem.

I’ve managed to come across a nice little Heritage working hunter saddle which looks exactly like my previous Ideal looked like. Hopefully this may be a go-er. The bonus too is that I can get a good price for the K&M.

Eta- interesting to hear about the changes through menopause or with lack of oestrogen. I don’t think that is what’s causing mine though, I do think it’s just the shape of the seat that’s not akin to my anatomy.

I suspect K&M Saddles are popular despite not being that good for us riders because they're cheap(er) and as they're often favoured by novice owners , those owners don't necessarily know the difference a decent saddle can make or be able to feel the difference when riding in a more supportive saddle

 

[holeymoley]

Just an update, I went back to my favourite brand- Ideal.

It’s an Ideal working hunter saddle (we had one a few years ago when he came back in to work but it became too narrow, also had an Ideal Ramsay years beforehand), this one is slightly different I actually think it may be a vsd instead but regardless what model it is, it was fabulous. It instantly felt like I was sitting in to the saddle. No back pain or pain any where else. I went for a canter in the field with it the following day and it felt like his whole back stretched out and opened up. It’s amazing how something can change so much, I’m actually back to looking forward to riding now! It is quite an old saddle though and could probably do with girth straps being renewed at some point, alas I’ll take comfort over new-ness any day!