…..horse valuation re registered breeds

[gallopingby]

Moving on from the Fresian post and valuation of horses, there have been a few recent posts about prices being high/low etc. Many of the registered breeds are now listed as being rare, due to low breeding numbers. Many of these would feature in the back breeding of the horses and ponies used for ‘general‘ riding activities today ie riding club horse/pony as well as more specific activities. How should we value them? Do people just want a horse to ride thats the cheapest they can find even though some of the registered breeds may be better long term value in terms of versatility and maintenance costs?

 

[blitznbobs]

I think most people buy the horse they think will do a job. And buy the best horse in their budget for that job. Some people have a fascination with a particular breed or other and some don’t like particular breeds… probably because they have preconceived ideas about that breed or have a poor experience of a horse of that breed. So if the job you want to do is event but you think Irish horses are stupid then you are more likely to buy continental but if you like eventing but think continental horses are always broken you might choose Irish etc etc. I think to actively want a particular breed you have to have a special love that breed but I have bought a Welsh d in the past because he was the one that best did the job I wanted in my price bracket at the time (and he was a lovely colour) … thus the value of the pure bred is probably only of interest when lots of people value that breed or that there are so few rare that the few people who want that particular breed outnumber the animals available.

 

[meleeka]

I like a well put together animal, but I think actual breeding only comes into it if you are showing, or you want a horse for one discipline. Even then it’s not so much about the breed, but the likelihood of the parents passing on their talents.

I live near the New Forest where ponies are far more carefully bred than they used to be. I’m guessing most of them end up as an all round riding club sort of pony and most of the owners aren't remotely bothered how they are bred, just that they are good at their job.

 

[ycbm]

I've only ever once bought a horse seeking a specific breed.* I wanted to know more about the characteristics of that breed to ride and thought it would really suit me. It turns out those characteristics to ride didn't suit me at all, and the management was completely at odds with how I kept my other horses, and a total pain, so she was sold.

I have rarely found that anything (horse, dog, cat, plant) narrowly bred for specific characteristics would result in "better long term value in terms of versatility and maintenance costs". It seems the reverse is more likely to be true.

Rare breeds need to be kept going by a dedicated small band of people who love the breed, or by taxpayer subsidy (which I wouldn't agree with though other countries differ) . The ordinary buyer isn't going to be prepared to pay more for a horse just because of its breeding, though clearly they will pay more for certain colours.



*discounting buying ex racers which were TB by default not by specific choice.

 

[sollimum]

I have two irish cob geldings - very different but seems like they have had the same upbringing and heart and in truth I did have another irish gelding in mind when I bought Mr D. I think some pony people love a particular breed and their traits. My daughter owns a highland mare - who is the most jolly hard working pony I ever met (now in foal to a highland stallion), so I can see how you could fall in love with highlands too but agree that most people are looking for a horse for a job.

 

[Bellaboo18]

How should we value them? Any horse is priced at what someone is willing to pay for it. For good reason a horse that's lame, is therefore in some degree of pain and has been gelded so has no breeding value is not going to command a high price. Its not going to be 'good long term value'.

Sorry OP I find this question odd, 'Do people just want a horse to ride thats the cheapest they can find even though some of the registered breeds...'
People don't want to buy high risk, high chance of a field ornament and endless vets bills.

 

[SpeedyPony]

IMO there is a market for purebred animals, but only where the breed has a job/purpose in today's world- for instance the improved natives (I.E. welsh/connemara) generally do better than the primitive types (exmoor etc) because they are a more useful to the average person nowadays.
I do think it's a shame when we loose bloodlines/breeds as they can be useful to breed back into (see the efforts to breed in hardier traits to the holstein/fresian cattle after creating such an extreme breed) but ultimately breeds came about because we had a purpose for them and if that purpose no longer exists, the breed must either change to fit the modern world or become solely of interest to those with a particular fondness for the breed- and these are often few and far between.

 

[Glitter's fun]

I think we need to be mindful of where our native breeds originate and why they became as they are.

For most of our breeds their histories start with any good worker & good doer with good temperament being retained for breeding. Keep doing that for long enough, in a remote place with poor transport links & you end up with "a breed" - people wanting the cheapest pony to do a job is what created our native breeds in the first place!

Now we want the breeds 'protected' by which we mean to stay the same but it is virtually impossible to write breed standards that encapsulate the personality and work ability of a breed, as well as the "well laid back sloping shoulders" etc . Over time our native breeds will change because their work has changed. If they are most valued for showing or jumping, over time they will change from the small, good-doers that could carry a shepherd up hills all day. This is what "survival of the fittest" means- it doesn't mean the most physically fit but the one that best fits the situation. The situation is that we want leisure ponies. You can see it already in the Welsh Ds that are taller & more horse-like & can jump higher.

There are enthusiasts who dedicate their lives to a certain breed but those aside, the best the rest of us can do to ensure breed survival is to insist on good health, good conformation, good temperament and working ability and to refuse to pay a premium for anything just because it has a certain label.

 

[teddy_]

Thinking about the fellow liveries at the same stable as me, 9/10 are more interested in functionality than breed. Which I suppose is why there was a lady who owns a Friesian, but seemed completely disinterested in the fact he is a Friesian.

This is a mystery to yours truly, as I sourced my mare based on her breeding alone. When I explain my mares own breeding to people at the stables, and get all excited, I realise it's normally going in one ear, and out of the other . No one cares that her sire was winner of the 2015 KWPN spring stallion performance testing .

 

[9tails]

Do people just want a horse to ride thats the cheapest they can find

For me, in a word, yes. But it's got to be attractive too, well put together, sound and a nice person. So if the cheapest isn't any of these, I'll go up the scale until one fits the bill. I couldn't give a monkeys how it's bred, I'm not looking to increase the horse population.

There's far too much emphasis on elevated paces and breeding for the leg flinging ability nowadays. As well as breeding bigger and bigger. All horses I know that are over 17h and bred for dressage have soundness issues, obviously not a complete picture, but eight horses that won't make old bones.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Thinking about the fellow liveries at the same stable as me, 9/10 are more interested in functionality than breed. Which I suppose is why there was a lady who owns a Friesian, but seemed completely disinterested in the fact he is a Friesian.

This is a mystery to yours truly, as I sourced my mare based on her breeding alone. When I explain my mares own breeding to people at the stables, and get all excited, I realise it's normally going in one ear, and out of the other . No one cares that her sire was winner of the 2015 KWPN spring stallion performance testing .

I must admit I'd be one of those people. It's like when someone proudly tells me the parentage of their dog or that it's a something a poo thing. I glaze straight over, to me it's a dog.

 

[Cortez]

Breeding is really only of interest to breeders, the average rider just wants to ride. However the whole point of bloodlines is predictability of characteristics and performance, so some people are going to peruse certain bloodlines in search of those.

Rare breeds are usually rare for a reason, and utility plays a part in that. For instance horses whose entire reason for being bred in the first place has disappeared, like plough horses and pit ponies.

 

[Alibear]

It depends on location, too. There are lots of quarter horses in the States, so they're cheap, but they pay big money for traditional cobs over there as they're rare. It's the complete opposite over here.
As I switched to Western, I went purebred AQH as it meant I had more shows to compete at in the UK, I liked the breed, and there are some known good temperament bloodlines to go for, although I'm still very, very novice at all that.

 

[Tarragon]

I ended up with my Exmoor ponies because I wanted a native pony breed and the fact that they are a rare breed, and if you buy a moorland bred pony you are buying a pony that has spent the first 6 months of its life living wild on the open moors in a free-living herd which, I think, makes them special. I also considered a Highland, but they were too expensive at the time. Exmoor ponies are certainly undervalued in my opinion and I am doing my best to help show the world what lovely riding ponies they can be. It does seem wrong that you can only get a few hundred pounds for a registered Exmoor foal because they are not a "popular" breed, when going back 50 years or so they were a common choice for a children's pony. I have been stopped so many times by people while I am out riding, saying - I used to have an Exmoor pony in my youth! Perhaps their turn will come again, and meanwhile we have to have enthusiasts to keep the breed going.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I've always had Arab's so tend to just gravitate towards them I suppose it's because I know them and love them as riding horses I just find them easy, and just love how they are to be around they are very much people ponies.

Although I have ridden a variety of horses over the years and like many of them some not so much, I did have a lovely Oldenburg mare so I often have a lust after some of those that are very expensive and probably far too much horse for me but I can dream

 

[reynold]

For me it's always been a cross-bred horse/pony, both when I was breeding sports ponies and for my own riding horses. For both I wanted soundness, temperament, movement, looks and ability to do the job I wanted. I looked for horses by stallions that had a performance pedigree and had themselves lived to a ripe old age. I often used stallions in their late teens/early 20s. The dam was important as well but less hard to trace their details than with stallions when buying a horse.

Ironically the only time I used a young, unproven, stallion the offspring only lasted to the age of 14 and had soundness issues before that for 2 years.

For the ponies I bred I had a mix of welsh/connemara proven and graded stallions mixed with welshxanglo arab mares. For my riding horses I generally went for 3/4 TB 1/4 pony. I never went for pure TB as I knew far too many with very bad feet.

So to answer the OP I think that there is a wish to assess at least the sire of the horse/pony as regards type/soundness but the conformation, temperament and ability to do the job required is overall more important.

 

[Glitter's fun]

Rare breeds are usually rare for a reason, and utility plays a part in that. For instance horses whose entire reason for being bred in the first place has disappeared, like plough horses and pit ponies.

New uses can happen though.
It saddens me to see plough horses being bred for nothing but further breeding. It's a form of pyramid selling!
RSs, RDA & trekking centres are crying out for bigger horses & you can't move on FB without falling over wanted ads. from tall adults looking for a steady hack. There is a niche there but to exploit it you'd need to breed for longevity/soundness/good feet....
Compare that to Highlands and Shetlands, both with very healthy numbers, both without their original use but embracing a new one.

 

[clinkerbuilt]

Talking of rare breeds and functionality, can anyone more in the know tell me why Cleveland Bays are so hard to come across? A friend had a lovely one when we were younger, an ex-police horse. Outside of driving, I would have thought they might have the same utility in cross-breeding hunters and all-rounders as IDs, yet there isn't the breeding base.

 

[ester]

I think the trouble is they are better as a cross breed, which ends up reducing pure bred numbers. That and maybe insufficient marketing and a reputation for being a bit stubborn that the ID doesn’t have.

 

[reynold]

would agree re: Clevelands. Their temperament can be annoying at times.

Another problem with taking too much notice of breeding/bloodlines is that it can have the effect of using stallions particularly (but also mares) for breeding to exploit the 'fashion' instead of looking at soundness and conformation.

This can also fuel the exaggerated search for certain breed features (e.g. flashy WB movement) over soundness. Arabs have also been overbred for dished faces as have some Welsh breeding.

I despair when I see unsound (not accidentally injured) racing TBs retired to stud because of their bloodlines when they have known faults, terrible feet, poor temperaments, etc. However TB breeding is for another thread.

 

[marmalade76]

I've only ever once bought a horse seeking a specific breed.* I wanted to know more about the characteristics of that breed to ride and thought it would really suit me. It turns out those characteristics to ride didn't suit me at all, and the management was completely at odds with how I kept my other horses, and a total pain, so she was sold.

I have rarely found that anything (horse, dog, cat, plant) narrowly bred for specific characteristics would result in "better long term value in terms of versatility and maintenance costs". It seems the reverse is more likely to be true.

Rare breeds need to be kept going by a dedicated small band of people who love the breed, or by taxpayer subsidy (which I wouldn't agree with though other countries differ) . The ordinary buyer isn't going to be prepared to pay more for a horse just because of its breeding, though clearly they will pay more for certain colours.



*discounting buying ex racers which were TB by default not by specific choice.

I'm interested in knowing the breed you thought would suit you but didn't

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Thinking about the fellow liveries at the same stable as me, 9/10 are more interested in functionality than breed. Which I suppose is why there was a lady who owns a Friesian, but seemed completely disinterested in the fact he is a Friesian.

This is a mystery to yours truly, as I sourced my mare based on her breeding alone. When I explain my mares own breeding to people at the stables, and get all excited, I realise it's normally going in one ear, and out of the other . No one cares that her sire was winner of the 2015 KWPN spring stallion performance testing .

But it doesn't matter one bit if other liveries aren't as thrilled by your horse's breeding as you are. You bought the horse that you wanted, and take obvious pride in his breeding so that is all that matters.

I am one of those who glaze over and go deaf when someone reels of a list of their horse's breeding, it means nothing to me. I either like the look of their horse or I don't, but I would never, ever hurt their feelings by saying I don't particularly like their pride and joy! We each buy what we want, not what we want other people to like I think, well unless you are showing, then you best buy the type that the judges are looking for.

 

[Xmasha]

im that pain in the butt that always asks what breeding someones horse is ( if it looks vaguely irish draught ) I like to look out for temperament / movement / confo that lines throw. But totally understand that most people dont give a hoot.
Breeding matters when you are trying to breed horses for courses, and quality pure breds should command a higher price, as they are the foundations of the next generation.

 

[gallopingby]

New uses can happen though.
It saddens me to see plough horses being bred for nothing but further breeding. It's a form of pyramid selling!
RSs, RDA & trekking centres are crying out for bigger horses & you can't move on FB without falling over wanted ads. from tall adults looking for a steady hack. There is a niche there but to exploit it you'd need to breed for longevity/soundness/good feet....
Compare that to Highlands and Shetlands, both with very healthy numbers, both without their original use but embracing a new one.

I don’t think there are healthy numbers of highlands. They are on the at risk register although not as high risk as dales, Cleveland bay,hackneys, suffolks and exmoor.

 

[Glitter's fun]

Interesting - must just be where I live. I could throw a stone in any direction & hit one (not that I would -no rude messages please).

 

[Glitter's fun]

So interesting I looked it up!
According to the rare breeds survival trust:

Priority
Cleveland bay 1000 remaining worldwide
Dales 600
Eriskay 300
Exmoor 2000
Hackney 3000
Suffolk 2500

At Risk
Clydesdale 10,000
Dartmoor ?3,000*
Fell 5,000
Highland 6,000
New Forest ?**
Shire 2,000

"Green"
Shetland
Welsh

*Couldn't find a recent figure- that is an estimate from 2014
**figures I found were so different from each other that I didn't trust any of them - anyone know?

 

[SEL]

I rode a pure bred Hackney for a short while in my 20s and he was a lot of fun. Pretty good at jumping but very much in his own style. I'm struggling to think if I've seen one since sadly

 

[Pippity]

I wouldn't say I was looking for the cheapest horse when I went shopping, but I wasn't bothered about breed. I had specific characteristics - sensible, weight-carrier, 15hh-16hh - and looked for a horse that met them, and that was within my budget. I'd have been perfectly happy to buy a Highland, a Suffolk, a Clydesdale, a Dales, etc. But, law of averages, the one that met my requirements best was a cob, because there are so many more of them.

I'd disagree that a purebred whatever is likely to be a better long-term investment, though. With registered breeding, it should be easy to breed out undesirable characteristics, but that doesn't always happen. Just look at Quarter Horses and HYPP - a genetic mutation that could be bred out within a single generation, but it's kept going because it makes the horses look good in halter classes.

 

[Julia0803]

I think for your average low level rider who wants a ‘nice person’ to try a bit of everything with, breeding probably comes way down the list.

I know personally, when I was looking (many years ago now!), I had it in my head that I wanted a dark coloured, (so bay/chestnut for poo disguising qualities) large native pony. So initially thought Connie/Welsh etc (because Dales/ large NFS are pretty rare round here). I’d had a registered Connie as a teen.

We ended up with a coloured cob of nondescript heritage, because he did the job we wanted, ticked all our boxes, passed a 5* vetting and I could afford him! We weren’t really into showing and it didn’t matter for what we wanted to do. To us it wouldn’t have made sense to buy another animal that ticked all the same boxes because it was a registered breed (or a gelding of x breed to be honest) if it was going to cost significantly more for particular breeding.

However, I’m a bit of a snob re Labrador breeding . We used to show ours, a long time ago. Tho our current girls are purely much loved pets, they are, to my eyes at least, very good looking pets. I’m not really involved in the breed any more in that sense, however a fellow livery recently got a puppy and when showing me her puppy’s parents I said, hmm… that looks like an **** (breed affix), and low and behold, the affix appeared multiple times in the pedigree.

So I suppose I can get the idea that you like your animal to look a certain way, have specific traits, temperament etc and you therefore hedge your bets by only looking at animals with breeding that reflects your particular interests.

 

[Wishfilly]

I ended up with my Exmoor ponies because I wanted a native pony breed and the fact that they are a rare breed, and if you buy a moorland bred pony you are buying a pony that has spent the first 6 months of its life living wild on the open moors in a free-living herd which, I think, makes them special. I also considered a Highland, but they were too expensive at the time. Exmoor ponies are certainly undervalued in my opinion and I am doing my best to help show the world what lovely riding ponies they can be. It does seem wrong that you can only get a few hundred pounds for a registered Exmoor foal because they are not a "popular" breed, when going back 50 years or so they were a common choice for a children's pony. I have been stopped so many times by people while I am out riding, saying - I used to have an Exmoor pony in my youth! Perhaps their turn will come again, and meanwhile we have to have enthusiasts to keep the breed going.

I would love to have an Exmoor, but I think I'm probably slightly too big for one realistically. I do think the moor bred thing goes both ways, and having known ponies that have come off the moors in SW England, they can be very difficult to manage on richer grazing etc.

I think people don't think of them as children's ponies anymore, which is a shame as I think they can be a nice middle ground between something really tiny, and a sportier Connie/New Forest type. The same goes for purebred Dartmoors- I think they can make lovely children's ponies, but people don't seem to consider them?