1 year old dog testing me!!

Alec Swan said:
Teaselmeg, you seem determined in that you wont listen. Fine by me.

Alec.
Click to expand...

I understand perfetly what you are trying to justify.

We now live in a quick fix society, a lot of people just look on the internet for the quickest way to 'fix' the problem ( not getting at you OP). If you advocate giving the dog a good hiding/a quick slap/a good jerk on the lead they will take you literally and think that is the way to train your dog. Any advice given on AAD is based on what is written, not with the dog in front of you, so we have to be very careful what we advise.

I always find it odd that people on this forum, most of whom have horses, will call in the vet or trainer if they have a problem with their horse, but don't think the same way when it comes to their dog.
 
Alec Swan said:
"Respect is a positive feeling of esteem or deference for a person or other entity (such as a nation or a religion), and also specific actions and conduct representative of that esteem...."

If we accept that an "other entity" could be a dog, I'm reliant upon Wiki for that one!

Discarding any attempts at anthropomorphism, if we consider that young male lions in a pride, from what I see on the telly, will show due deference and respect to the pride leaders, so the word respect, though not of an entirely ethereal nature, can be used to describe what in essence is the fear of causing offence. Respect works for me, and I suspect, for others.

Alec.
Click to expand...

I am confused now over who shows respect to whom. I thought the dog had to show respect to the human, but if the dog is the 'other entity' then the human has to show respect to the dog.

Replacing 'respect' with 'esteem' or 'deference' doesn't help as they are also normative concepts only applicable to humans.

Not to put words in your mouth but I think by 'respect' you mean acceptance of pack hierarchy. A few thoughts come to mind on that. Setting aside that pack hiererchy theory has been abandonned by most ethologists, if we accept it has relevance it's supposed to draw analogies with wolves, not lions (lion pride social interactions are very complex and fundamentally focus on the female lions). In wolf packs you rarely see physical violence, marks of accepting pack leadership include smelling/licking of genitals/anus, ettiquette about peeing and pooing, mouth 'munching' (that weird pacification ritual, not sure what its proper name is), etc none of which are things most human owners would want to be doing with their dogs. Actual physical violence is very rare in wolf packs, although there is waht is called ritual bluffing (psoturing and mock fighting following very exact rules). When there is actual violence it is extreme and often leads to death or expulsion from the group. Finally leader wolves do not issue commands in any way compatible with what we need from pet dogs, rather they chose where the pack goes and they get to have sex with the leader female (again fairly useless for human training purposes!).

So even if we are to accept that dog learning follows wolf learning and if we accept a dominance theory of establishing this notion of 'respect', what you are suggesting in terms of using physical violence is not justified by what we know about wolves.
 
Teaselmeg said:
I understand perfetly what you are trying to justify.

We now live in a quick fix society, a lot of people just look on the internet for the quickest way to 'fix' the problem ( not getting at you OP). If you advocate giving the dog a good hiding/a quick slap/a good jerk on the lead they will take you literally and think that is the way to train your dog. Any advice given on AAD is based on what is written, not with the dog in front of you, so we have to be very careful what we advise.

I always find it odd that people on this forum, most of whom have horses, will call in the vet or trainer if they have a problem with their horse, but don't think the same way when it comes to their dog.
Click to expand...

Are you a trainer/canine behaviourist by any chance??

Personally, I think people on the whole have more sense. The traditional way to counter ignorance is through education. That is not achieved by withholding information for fear it might be misinterpreted but by logical reasoned discussion.

You say, "If you advocate giving the dog a good hiding/a quick slap/a good jerk on the lead they will take you literally and think that is the way to train your dog".

Stupidity will always be with us and I know of no cure! Sometimes a quick slap is quickest way of curing an aggressive dog, especially if done when the problem is first recognised and before the vice has become established. That is a matter of judgement. With some dogs, a sharp loud "NO!" would be sufficient. The bitch with the pups applied a fake attack and the shock of that was enough to instill instant respect.

Perhaps if respect had been instilled earlier enough, there would be fewer children out there with half their faces missing because some one thought the answer to permanently curing an aggressive pit bull type or Jack Russell was "time out" or diverting it's attention with treats.

Going back to my earlier post, how do you deal with a nipping colt? Simply by reacting in a way that the colt finds unproductive. Personally, I stick a well aimed finger up a nostril! Shocking! Cruel! But it works and I don't get bitten any more. Maybe I should try time out....:rolleyes:
 
Im glad the op is going to see a trainer, just hope its a good one and someone like Cayla. Its seems that things are improving though which is good.

There does seem to be a lot of point scoring on this thread and its Traditional versus modern methods. There is more than one way to skin a cat and I use a mixture of both methods to train my dogs. Its so easy to set yourself up for a bite using the wrong methods that is why its so difficult giving advice over the internet without seeing the dog and handler in front of you.
 
I think it is a good and interesting debate - I am a dog smacker when I feel it is needed, and I smack my horses too, again, if they need it.
OP I think tipping him off his bed is a good idea, there was someone on here who had a dog that claimed the sofa and she tipped it over to get him off, worked every time!
Good luck with him, sounds like you have made real progress already.
 
I remember a trainer once said to me about moving dogs off of sofas etc - not to tip them off, because it was harsh
 
Oops didnt finish! Not to tip them off or handle them - but to walk into another room and rustle some paper or something interesting so the dog gets off (!) Its no surprise sometimes that trainers who use "force-free" methods are called soft.....!
 
Clodagh said:
I think it is a good and interesting debate - OP I think tipping him off his bed is a good idea, there was someone on here who had a dog that claimed the sofa and she tipped it over to get him off, worked every time!
Good luck with him, sounds like you have made real progress already.
Click to expand...

That was me Clodagh, the dog in question was a male 18month Dobe I had just taken as a rescue. He had bitten his previous owners and had been returned to the breeder who gave him to me. Fred was as fat as a house had no discipline and had no bounderies. I had him a day when he jumped on the sofa and I told him to get off, he just sat there and growled at me, Im sure I could have enticed him off with a treat but felt pretty certain it wouldnt cure him and there would be a next time. So I just went behind the sofa and tipped it up at the same time shouting get to your bed, which he did. Being an intelligent dog he never did that again.

He was a very challenging dog and we had lots of issues which we overcame and he became my dog of a lifetime, sadly I lost him age 4yrs old to Lepto, I will never find another like him.:(
 
Tipping is fine (imo), I also used the method when a spaniel pup was testing the owner (each time she tried to get her off the chair) she snacked her, I simply demonstrated walking behind the chair and tipping it forward with an "off" (obs easier than with a settee):D it took 3 times to see the never never get on the chair again as when she attempted and I said "off", she slinked to her own bed (so the owner was left with this new rotuine), (she (the dog) looked at me as if to say) "what the!":eek: no one ever did this before, i was expecting to beable to use my teeth to get you to back off";):p
I have to admit I don't tackle issues the way I instruct owners to (but I always demonstrate and explain more than indepthy why I use a method/why I advise it and why the dog is most likely displaying the behaviour), as suggested here by S88... already some people are not capable of the firmer methods (im not against firm handling AT ALL!!) we are talking about an animal here!!, an animal where if the dangerous behaviour gets out of hand (the dog is dead/or passed to rescue);) however it needs to be demonstrated, just like I would never advise a check chain but would demonstate how they work and of late I used one for safely and it's asved the dogs life) can explain if needed (if I felt one where needed I will advise one is used).
As DG said, there is more than one way to skin a cat, so be prepared to vary your methods to the dog in question, not all dogs are reward responsive in regard to treats/toys and some are more hard wired than others so need a firm consistant hand (which some people are just not cut out for)

Op you changed your way of handling and awoken your dogs repsonse! I personally would have done the same or as Alec said, (get a lead and walk away) and get the dog to move it's butt and follow you) I would not put a harness or long line on in the house (but each to their own) can you take the bed out from under the table and block it off to stop him using it as (his hidey hole and expose him to the open) to take away giving him the upper hand to invite a challenge of snacking/ not to mention creating a game and seeking attention (game of chase me), I don't think he is guarding the bed at all, he just sees it as a place to scarper where others (often back off from him)) (leaving him to do as he pleases;)
Yu can indeed swap what he steals for a reward (but recall him to you0 never go to him, but try and keep things out of his reach rather than having to treat him a million times to get stuff he stole (give him his own) goodies, teach him what his an whats not.
Hopefully your newer firmer stance can be carried on by your mam (but this is where the issue may begin)
 
I am not a dog trainer or a behaviourist, but I do help some friends who are. They deal with problem dogs of all shapes and sizes. They have a variety of problems - they lack social skills or are fearful or are owned by people who got the dog because they liked how it looked and didnt bother to look into the breed traits ( pointer living in London etc) and now their cute puppy is an adolescent yob. I also have a rescue lad who has been challenging to say the least and this has lead me to look into different methods of dog training to help him.

Stargirl 88 - I have used the tip off method ( I have no problem with doing that) and also called the dog off and rewarded. If a dog is guarding the sofa then I would go back to basics and teach an 'on the sofa' and then 'off the sofa' go it get it used to coming off the sofa when requested.

Dryrot - a quick slap can never be the quickest way to 'cure' an aggressive dog. How do you know it is being aggressive ? It could be very scared, the majority of 'aggressive' dogs are actually fearful. So if the dog is fearful and you hit it for being scared, does the dog understand why you have just done that ? No, he just knows that when he is scared you might also hit him ! We need to treat them as dogs, understand more about why they are doing what they are doing, rather than surpressing the behaviour using adversive methods. We have invited them to share our lives, why make their lives miserable just because they don't understand what we are asking them to do ?

And if I had a colt that I was having problems with, I would get a trainer in to help me!

OP, I am sorry we are hijacking your thread, I hope you have had a better day with your dog.
 
Teaselmeg said:
I am not a dog trainer or a behaviourist, but I do help some friends who are. .......
Click to expand...

There's a world of difference between "watching" and "doing". I've no wish to be unkind, but you may one day gain enough experience, to see the folly of your arguments. It's better to be quiet and be thought a fool, than to persevere, and prove the point, beyond doubt.

Alec.
 
Thanks everyone, had another good day with the dog. He has been as good as gold (so far!) no snapping at all. Had one little moment when I wanted him to go out and he didn't want to, I called him he came into the room (a large room) but didn't want to go out as it was raining. He stood about 3 metres from me and would come to me. What should I do in the situation as the way my mum would get him is to treat him but I didn't want to do that as that is what he wanted!

This is what i did, it was probably wrong!!

I went to get him and he started running around the sofas(thinking it was fun) I called him agAin and he just looked at me as if to say what are you going to do now! I put the other dogs out and the just quietly followed him round the room, every time he stopped I pushed him on to gain control, I don't think he thought it was a game as he was not looking like he enjoyed it! After a while I stopped, he stopped and I made him sit, down, stay etc and he was very submissive(put his ead on the floor and just looked at me) he then went outside no problem when I told him. I didn't use any physical contact as he was quite jumpy and tail between legs wondering why I was making him go round and round the room!

Was this completely the wrong thing to do?!
 
Alec Swan said:
There's a world of difference between "watching" and "doing". I've no wish to be unkind, but you may one day gain enough experience, to see the folly of your arguments. It's better to be quiet and be thought a fool, than to persevere, and prove the point, beyond doubt.

Alec.
Click to expand...

And you are a qualified dog trainer /behaviourist ? You strike me as someone who has trained many of your own dogs over a lot of years, rather than someone who trains for a living. Just because I have chosen to query your 'training' methods Alec, there is no need to be so condescending.
 
Teaselmeg said:
And you are a qualified dog trainer /behaviourist ? You strike me as someone who has trained many of your own dogs over a lot of years, rather than someone who trains for a living. .
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, there are many trainers/behaviourists who train for a living and who have NOT trained that many dogs that they have had to live with themselves for any sustained period of time; however they know a lot of theory and put letters after their name! :)
 
Teaselmeg said:
And you are a qualified dog trainer /behaviourist ? You strike me as someone who has trained many of your own dogs over a lot of years, rather than someone who trains for a living. Just because I have chosen to query your 'training' methods Alec, there is no need to be so condescending.
Click to expand...

Query by all means, but telling Dry Rot that effectively, he doesn't know what he's talking about, isn't just insulting to him, but considering that he's competed dogs at International level, it says little for you.

If being condescending has made you think, then perhaps it was the right tack. If you don't understand D_R's point, then ask. He's a most amenable man, and will explain to you his reasoning.

Me? I've seen so many idiots who've read a book or two, perhaps trained a dog, and suddenly set themselves up as a "Behaviourist-Trainer", that I don't do labels. I've trained a dog or two over the years, I've made a great many mistakes, though as I age, those mistakes are becoming less, hopefully!

Alec.
 
If anyone is training me, I like to see how their own dogs behave.

I'd rather a trainer who trains to that individual dog's character, than the many, many trainers who pick and choose dogs to own or to work with that suit their individual training style, the ones who ask handlers with dogs that they can't fit into their training style to leave, the ones who say the owners aren't doing it right, the ones who keep the owners coming back with never any positive results because the training will never suit the dog. Those are the ones who are selling a lie.

A trainer who says no dog ever needs compulsion, or aversion, is also selling a lie IMO.
 
Alec Swan said:
There's a world of difference between "watching" and "doing". I've no wish to be unkind, but you may one day gain enough experience, to see the folly of your arguments. It's better to be quiet and be thought a fool, than to persevere, and prove the point, beyond doubt.

Alec.
Click to expand...

I am not a trainer either but all the trainers I have worked with have managed to deal with seriously problem dogs (i.e. helping private clients and helping large shelters) with hands off, positive reinforcement techniques, while running large obedience and fun classes and having their own well behaved dogs doing obedience, agility, clicker fun, etc. It's certainly possible to deal with serious behaviours with positive techniques without ever hiting.
 
CaveCanem said:
.......

I'd rather a trainer who trains to that individual dog's character, than the many, many trainers who pick and choose dogs to own or to work with that suit their individual training style, ........
Click to expand...

Guilty, I'm afraid to say, though I'm not alone it seems! :o Those who can turn their hand to any dog, of any disposition, would be rare I'd have thought. I've never trained people, and wouldn't. I'm quite certain that this doesn't apply to all those who train the handler, but I've stood on the sidelines a few times and watched, and I've been staggered at some of the advice, and in my defence, I've read of those on here, who've also been a little less than impressed with their "trainer".

It was an interesting point which was raised by someone earlier, in that with horses, we go to trainers, so why not with dogs, and I suspect that for reasons that I don't entirely understand, the Yogi Briesners of the canine world, are a bit thin on the ground. There will be some excellent Handler-Trainers, I feel sure, but except for specialist sport dogs, I suspect that there are few who are truly competent.

Alec.
 
Yes but you are not selling yourself as a dog trainer or charging for it, I assume?

I've no issue with those who pick and choose, as long as they are honest about it from the start. Not those who say they can fix all sorts of issues, when of course they mean they can only solve issues in a particular kind of dog.
 
gunnergundog said:
Unfortunately, there are many trainers/behaviourists who train for a living and who have NOT trained that many dogs that they have had to live with themselves for any sustained period of time; however they know a lot of theory and put letters after their name! :)
Click to expand...

This is very true. There is someone local to me who runs training classes, does individual tuition, I think they make a fairly decent living out of it but cannot deal with problem dogs. She tries for a bit and then gives up and if they are lucky the owner finds a better trainer, in some cases the dog is rehomed .

I have kept out of this debate, but I trained dogs when it was all compulsion and have to admit to being less than complimentary about "new fangled ideas" when things turned round and training involved treats, clickers etc. But I have learned that like everything having an open mind is the best way to move forward, I do use mainly reward training now, but do not have a problem with using a smack, a shake or on occasions a pinch collar:eek:. Its horses for courses and the important thing is to find what works to make a dog that listens to me and is happy to do as I ask.
 
Picklenash said:
I guess I am the only one who sees the irony of this comment.....:p
Click to expand...

I was aware of what I wrote, and was prepared for sniping from those with nothing constructive to add. I also have sufficient confidence in my argument, to accept the attempts of others to score points.

Well done, that was most observant of you. :rolleyes:

Alec.
 
I have plenty of constructive advice to offer the OP, but I felt there were quite enough people already doing so on this thread :)

As for scoring points - who needs to? :cool:
 
Alec Swan said:
It was an interesting point which was raised by someone earlier, in that with horses, we go to trainers, so why not with dogs, and I suspect that for reasons that I don't entirely understand, the Yogi Briesners of the canine world, are a bit thin on the ground. Alec.
Click to expand...

In the world of operant conditioning John Fisher, Ian Dunbar and Karen Pryor (to name but a few) all spring to mind immediately so I don't think you need to look far to find good trainers who have had an impact on a huge number of aspects of dog training. Having said that, of course it is true that every single theory and approach can suffer at the hands of people who do not understand it or apply it correctly. Even then though positive reinforcement gets my preference because I would much rather people incorrectly handed out treats to their dogs than that they would incorrectly hand out slaps, tugs on the choke collar or buzzes from the electronic collar.
 
Booboos said:
positive reinforcement gets my preference because I would much rather people incorrectly handed out treats to their dogs than that they would incorrectly hand out slaps, tugs on the choke collar or buzzes from the electronic collar.
Click to expand...

I don't particularly like heavy handed tactics, I do find that handing out treats inappropriately is almost worse because they can in fact be rewarding for the unwanted behaviour. I see it all the time - people using "bribes" and in fact the timing is so poor that dog thinks that the "bad thing" is actually the "good thing" and continues doing it...expecting and getting the reward.
 
Booboos - thats that idea I was poorly trying to get across earlier. Poorly timed click/treat is better than a poorly timed correction, and it's something that can be easily developed, which is why I said it was more user-friendly method!
 
Booboos said:
In the world of operant conditioning John Fisher, Ian Dunbar and Karen Pryor (to name but a few) all spring to mind immediately so I don't think you need to look far to find good trainers who have had an impact on a huge number of aspects of dog training. Having said that, of course it is true that every single theory and approach can suffer at the hands of people who do not understand it or apply it correctly. Even then though positive reinforcement gets my preference because I would much rather people incorrectly handed out treats to their dogs than that they would incorrectly hand out slaps, tugs on the choke collar or buzzes from the electronic collar.
Click to expand...

THIS ^^^

I agree that there are a lot trainers out there who know the theory, but are not able to think outside the box, so the moment the dog starts to kick off, they are kicked out. If you are advertising yourself as a dog trainer, you should be able to help with all types of dogs and if you can't, then find someone for the client who can, not just banish them from your class.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top