Alibear
Well-Known Member
In response to PK's defence of the short version , there is now a 10 mins video of his warm up on you tube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo8W2fUjdM4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zo8W2fUjdM4
10 mins PK Video
- Thread starter Alibear
- Start date
flyingfeet
Well-Known Member
I don't see how you can stop this happening though, until the dressage judges wake up and stop concentrating on the head for balance and the impressive front legs that simply don't match the back.
All I can say is that the life of a top dressage horse must be fairly miserable if this is the daily treatment at home.
All I can say is that the life of a top dressage horse must be fairly miserable if this is the daily treatment at home.
teddyt
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
All I can say is that the life of a top dressage horse must be fairly miserable if this is the daily treatment at home.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. 22 hours in a stable. Only leaving to go on a walker or into a school to have their head hauled backwards.
Few dressage horses hack or go in the field. Yes, some do but many are not this fortunate. They are machines to produce gain for their riders. Until judges disaprove of this training things will not improve.
But i suppose the same can be said for other disciplines.
All I can say is that the life of a top dressage horse must be fairly miserable if this is the daily treatment at home.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. 22 hours in a stable. Only leaving to go on a walker or into a school to have their head hauled backwards.
Few dressage horses hack or go in the field. Yes, some do but many are not this fortunate. They are machines to produce gain for their riders. Until judges disaprove of this training things will not improve.
But i suppose the same can be said for other disciplines.
oldvic
Well-Known Member
The judges can only judge what is infront of them in a test. How the horse and rider get there is not part of their remit. There are many different ways to achieve the same goal so how can the judges be responsible for the training? Their responsibility is the end result.
I am not supporting rollkur, just keeping an open mind and being fair to the judges.
I am not supporting rollkur, just keeping an open mind and being fair to the judges.
Silverspring
Well-Known Member
That video shows that the horses tongue was only out his mouth and noticably blue for a few moments before the rider took action to fix it.
He was one of many riders in that warm up arena over bending their horse as part of the warm up. I understand people being against Rolkur but I feel this rider is being demonised for doing what the majority of the riders at his level are also doing.
The problem with hyper flexion is that it's very difficult to spot unless someone takes it to an extreme. In most dressage and showjumping arenas you will see horses working behind the vertical and overbending. Sometime this is the horse evasion, sometime it's being asked to do this. What would happen if your horse naturally over bent when warming up...would you not be able to compete?
He was one of many riders in that warm up arena over bending their horse as part of the warm up. I understand people being against Rolkur but I feel this rider is being demonised for doing what the majority of the riders at his level are also doing.
The problem with hyper flexion is that it's very difficult to spot unless someone takes it to an extreme. In most dressage and showjumping arenas you will see horses working behind the vertical and overbending. Sometime this is the horse evasion, sometime it's being asked to do this. What would happen if your horse naturally over bent when warming up...would you not be able to compete?
kerilli
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
That video shows that the horses tongue was only out his mouth and noticably blue for a few moments before the rider took action to fix it.
He was one of many riders in that warm up arena over bending their horse as part of the warm up. I understand people being against Rolkur but I feel this rider is being demonised for doing what the majority of the riders at his level are also doing.
The problem with hyper flexion is that it's very difficult to spot unless someone takes it to an extreme. In most dressage and showjumping arenas you will see horses working behind the vertical and overbending. Sometime this is the horse evasion, sometime it's being asked to do this. What would happen if your horse naturally over bent when warming up...would you not be able to compete?
[/ QUOTE ]
i disagree. the rider should have dismounted to work out why the horse's tongue was blue, flat and floppy. if it was trapped between the bits (as has been suggested could have been the case) only removing the bridle would have released it. poking it back into the horse's mouth to hide it was never the answer.
i've seen a lot of horses loll their tongue out. i've never seen one that was blue and flat, they're usually fat, pink and curled up, responsive, moving.
anyone worth their salt can tell the difference between a horse going behind the vertical of its own accord (momentarily, hopefully) and one being worked in hyperflexion with force. the weight in the reins, what the rider does with the hands, will show it immediately.
That video shows that the horses tongue was only out his mouth and noticably blue for a few moments before the rider took action to fix it.
He was one of many riders in that warm up arena over bending their horse as part of the warm up. I understand people being against Rolkur but I feel this rider is being demonised for doing what the majority of the riders at his level are also doing.
The problem with hyper flexion is that it's very difficult to spot unless someone takes it to an extreme. In most dressage and showjumping arenas you will see horses working behind the vertical and overbending. Sometime this is the horse evasion, sometime it's being asked to do this. What would happen if your horse naturally over bent when warming up...would you not be able to compete?
[/ QUOTE ]
i disagree. the rider should have dismounted to work out why the horse's tongue was blue, flat and floppy. if it was trapped between the bits (as has been suggested could have been the case) only removing the bridle would have released it. poking it back into the horse's mouth to hide it was never the answer.
i've seen a lot of horses loll their tongue out. i've never seen one that was blue and flat, they're usually fat, pink and curled up, responsive, moving.
anyone worth their salt can tell the difference between a horse going behind the vertical of its own accord (momentarily, hopefully) and one being worked in hyperflexion with force. the weight in the reins, what the rider does with the hands, will show it immediately.
Coffee_Bean
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
That video shows that the horses tongue was only out his mouth and noticably blue for a few moments before the rider took action to fix it.
He was one of many riders in that warm up arena over bending their horse as part of the warm up. I understand people being against Rolkur but I feel this rider is being demonised for doing what the majority of the riders at his level are also doing.
The problem with hyper flexion is that it's very difficult to spot unless someone takes it to an extreme. In most dressage and showjumping arenas you will see horses working behind the vertical and overbending. Sometime this is the horse evasion, sometime it's being asked to do this. What would happen if your horse naturally over bent when warming up...would you not be able to compete?
[/ QUOTE ]
But there is an obvious difference between that, the horse having its head yanked in, and a horse that is marginally behind the vertical, for whatever reason. These people are supposed to be at the top of their sport, role models, and look what they are doing to their horses
Shocking imo.
That video shows that the horses tongue was only out his mouth and noticably blue for a few moments before the rider took action to fix it.
He was one of many riders in that warm up arena over bending their horse as part of the warm up. I understand people being against Rolkur but I feel this rider is being demonised for doing what the majority of the riders at his level are also doing.
The problem with hyper flexion is that it's very difficult to spot unless someone takes it to an extreme. In most dressage and showjumping arenas you will see horses working behind the vertical and overbending. Sometime this is the horse evasion, sometime it's being asked to do this. What would happen if your horse naturally over bent when warming up...would you not be able to compete?
[/ QUOTE ]
But there is an obvious difference between that, the horse having its head yanked in, and a horse that is marginally behind the vertical, for whatever reason. These people are supposed to be at the top of their sport, role models, and look what they are doing to their horses
JoJo_
Well-Known Member
Agree that there is an obvious difference. My mare goes overbent sometimes while schooling to try to evade the contact and it is obvious with my reins being so lose that im not holding her there and she is doing it herself.
I hope they ban rollkur but I expect those competitors will still carry on every day at home schooling this way. Poor horses. It is no wonder they are happy to do a nice test in front of the judges after a warmup in rollkur. The test is such nice relief for them!
I hope they ban rollkur but I expect those competitors will still carry on every day at home schooling this way. Poor horses. It is no wonder they are happy to do a nice test in front of the judges after a warmup in rollkur. The test is such nice relief for them!
FrodoBeutlin
Well-Known Member
There was a joke going round a few years ago, that went more or less like this: Salinero really is the happiest athlete of the dressage scene, because when he's in the arena he knows Sjef can't get to him
Rouletterose
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
There was a joke going round a few years ago, that went more or less like this: Salinero really is the happiest athlete of the dressage scene, because when he's in the arena he knows Sjef can't get to him
[/ QUOTE ]
I heard that one too...so sad.
There was a joke going round a few years ago, that went more or less like this: Salinero really is the happiest athlete of the dressage scene, because when he's in the arena he knows Sjef can't get to him
[/ QUOTE ]
I heard that one too...so sad.
Dotilas
Well-Known Member
At 3.57, PK disappears for half a minute or so, and does not appear in the other end of the school - the camera's focus shifts to another competitor, and just before this you can see his horse dropping down a pace - how do we know he was not resting?
This is not 100%.
This is not 100%.
Silverspring
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
anyone worth their salt can tell the difference between a horse going behind the vertical of its own accord (momentarily, hopefully) and one being worked in hyperflexion with force. the weight in the reins, what the rider does with the hands, will show it immediately.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think I made myself very clear. With a double bridle or gag it's relatively easy to force a horse's head onto it's chest without using much force. If you gag a horse up they often drop behind the vertical without any pressure on the reins to evade the bit.
My feeling is that yes the dressage world is in a sad state of affairs when the top riders are all using double bridles to force their horses head into an unnatural carriage but what can really be done to stop it? Unless we have BD judges monitoring the warm up arena (who would probably be seen as the only people 'worth their salt') the riders will ignore any other calls to stop this.
I also feel dressage is being targeted when showjumpers are also very much into rolkur, why is it when a show jumper actually enters the arena (not just warmup) with a horse, gagged to the eye balls, staring at it's own feet no one gets up in arms about it? It's maybe more prevalent in the dressage world but it still common in the showjumping world.
I'm not saying either are correct but this one man is not the root of all evil, he's just doing what everyone else is doing.
anyone worth their salt can tell the difference between a horse going behind the vertical of its own accord (momentarily, hopefully) and one being worked in hyperflexion with force. the weight in the reins, what the rider does with the hands, will show it immediately.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think I made myself very clear. With a double bridle or gag it's relatively easy to force a horse's head onto it's chest without using much force. If you gag a horse up they often drop behind the vertical without any pressure on the reins to evade the bit.
My feeling is that yes the dressage world is in a sad state of affairs when the top riders are all using double bridles to force their horses head into an unnatural carriage but what can really be done to stop it? Unless we have BD judges monitoring the warm up arena (who would probably be seen as the only people 'worth their salt') the riders will ignore any other calls to stop this.
I also feel dressage is being targeted when showjumpers are also very much into rolkur, why is it when a show jumper actually enters the arena (not just warmup) with a horse, gagged to the eye balls, staring at it's own feet no one gets up in arms about it? It's maybe more prevalent in the dressage world but it still common in the showjumping world.
I'm not saying either are correct but this one man is not the root of all evil, he's just doing what everyone else is doing.
kerilli
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
There was a joke going round a few years ago, that went more or less like this: Salinero really is the happiest athlete of the dressage scene, because when he's in the arena he knows Sjef can't get to him
[/ QUOTE ]
crikey, if someone ever said such a thing of me i would hang my head in shame for the rest of my days.
i wish horses would not just endure, i wish they would whimper when they are in pain, as dogs will. imagine the soundtrack to the dressage warm-up then. there would be a public outcry.
i wish these horse-hating trainers would go and get an office job and never step near a horse again, too.
There was a joke going round a few years ago, that went more or less like this: Salinero really is the happiest athlete of the dressage scene, because when he's in the arena he knows Sjef can't get to him
[/ QUOTE ]
crikey, if someone ever said such a thing of me i would hang my head in shame for the rest of my days.
i wish horses would not just endure, i wish they would whimper when they are in pain, as dogs will. imagine the soundtrack to the dressage warm-up then. there would be a public outcry.
i wish these horse-hating trainers would go and get an office job and never step near a horse again, too.
Spudlet
Well-Known Member
QR
Just horrible.
I have heard dressage described as mental torture for horses (not by a fluffy bunny either), at the time I thought it exaggeration but am starting wonder if it might have been an accurate description!
Just horrible.
I have heard dressage described as mental torture for horses (not by a fluffy bunny either), at the time I thought it exaggeration but am starting wonder if it might have been an accurate description!
Alibear
Well-Known Member
The argument about why judges are being blamed for this is because they mark the rollkur horse highly, you can tell just by watching the test carefully which are rollkur horses as you can see the big front end and not matching hind end in the extensions and the piaffe shows up a hollow back.
So if the judges are marking these faults highly everyone copies.
So if the judges are marking these faults highly everyone copies.
FrodoBeutlin
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
i wish horses would not just endure, i wish they would whimper when they are in pain, as dogs will. imagine the soundtrack to the dressage warm-up then. there would be a public outcry.
[/ QUOTE ]
Kerilli, don't you think that, sooner rather than later, a lot of riders would start severing their horses' vocal cords, as it happens with show dogs to prevent them from barking
i wish horses would not just endure, i wish they would whimper when they are in pain, as dogs will. imagine the soundtrack to the dressage warm-up then. there would be a public outcry.
[/ QUOTE ]
Kerilli, don't you think that, sooner rather than later, a lot of riders would start severing their horses' vocal cords, as it happens with show dogs to prevent them from barking
kerilli
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i wish horses would not just endure, i wish they would whimper when they are in pain, as dogs will. imagine the soundtrack to the dressage warm-up then. there would be a public outcry.
[/ QUOTE ]
Kerilli, don't you think that, sooner rather than later, a lot of riders would start severing their horses' vocal cords, as it happens with show dogs to prevent them from barking
[/ QUOTE ]
do they really? seriously? god, i'm SO naive.
yes, i suppose you're right, riders possibly would do that.
i was told recently of a top event horse who has been denerved on both front legs. this really shocked me... but i suppose if it's a choice between a useless lame horse and one that can compete at top level...
[ QUOTE ]
i wish horses would not just endure, i wish they would whimper when they are in pain, as dogs will. imagine the soundtrack to the dressage warm-up then. there would be a public outcry.
[/ QUOTE ]
Kerilli, don't you think that, sooner rather than later, a lot of riders would start severing their horses' vocal cords, as it happens with show dogs to prevent them from barking
[/ QUOTE ]
do they really? seriously? god, i'm SO naive.
yes, i suppose you're right, riders possibly would do that.
i was told recently of a top event horse who has been denerved on both front legs. this really shocked me... but i suppose if it's a choice between a useless lame horse and one that can compete at top level...
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
I also feel dressage is being targeted when showjumpers are also very much into rolkur, why is it when a show jumper actually enters the arena (not just warmup) with a horse, gagged to the eye balls, staring at it's own feet no one gets up in arms about it? It's maybe more prevalent in the dressage world but it still common in the showjumping world.
[/ QUOTE ]
Rollkur? I think not. Overbent perhaps, this is not uncommon, but not rollkur. How would rollkur (in theory) help a SJer when they need to be loose, athletic, flexible?
I also feel dressage is being targeted when showjumpers are also very much into rolkur, why is it when a show jumper actually enters the arena (not just warmup) with a horse, gagged to the eye balls, staring at it's own feet no one gets up in arms about it? It's maybe more prevalent in the dressage world but it still common in the showjumping world.
[/ QUOTE ]
Rollkur? I think not. Overbent perhaps, this is not uncommon, but not rollkur. How would rollkur (in theory) help a SJer when they need to be loose, athletic, flexible?
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i wish horses would not just endure, i wish they would whimper when they are in pain, as dogs will. imagine the soundtrack to the dressage warm-up then. there would be a public outcry.
[/ QUOTE ]
Kerilli, don't you think that, sooner rather than later, a lot of riders would start severing their horses' vocal cords, as it happens with show dogs to prevent them from barking
[/ QUOTE ]
Why do they do that? What's wrong with dogs barking? And since a dog will bark anyway (soundlessly?) why don't they get fined/banned; it's not like severed vocal chords can be that hard to hide? Or can they? I really don't know anything about dog showing.
[ QUOTE ]
i wish horses would not just endure, i wish they would whimper when they are in pain, as dogs will. imagine the soundtrack to the dressage warm-up then. there would be a public outcry.
[/ QUOTE ]
Kerilli, don't you think that, sooner rather than later, a lot of riders would start severing their horses' vocal cords, as it happens with show dogs to prevent them from barking
[/ QUOTE ]
Why do they do that? What's wrong with dogs barking? And since a dog will bark anyway (soundlessly?) why don't they get fined/banned; it's not like severed vocal chords can be that hard to hide? Or can they? I really don't know anything about dog showing.
FrodoBeutlin
Well-Known Member
I really don't know enough about dog showing, but I have read (on other forums so not exactly the Bible!) it happens a lot in the US, apparently because barking is not enouraged in the show ring. A bit like injecting stuff into a horse's dock to stop tail-swishing (an illegal practice which exists among reining trainers because a swishing tail is marked down).
As I said I am pretty ignorant on the subject so can't comment as *maybe* it's not as bad as it sounds. What I was saying is that, if horses could moan (and there is no doubt to me that those worked in RK would) then the riders would have no qualms about stopping the 'moaning' artificially.
Just google 'debarking dogs'. Ah, it seems to be illegal in the UK.
As I said I am pretty ignorant on the subject so can't comment as *maybe* it's not as bad as it sounds. What I was saying is that, if horses could moan (and there is no doubt to me that those worked in RK would) then the riders would have no qualms about stopping the 'moaning' artificially.
Just google 'debarking dogs'. Ah, it seems to be illegal in the UK.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
I have never heard of show dogs having their vocal cords severed, certainly all the shows I have been to the dogs are definitely all capable of barking , where did you get this information from FrodoB?
FrodoBeutlin
Well-Known Member
MM, we posted at the same time, read my message above. Just been googling debarking dogs, it seems to be really common overseas
http://everything-pets.blogspot.com/2009/08/should-you-debark-your-dog.html
http://everything-pets.blogspot.com/2009/08/should-you-debark-your-dog.html
FrodoBeutlin
Well-Known Member
Oh gosh, read this:
http://information.i-love-dogs.com/dog-articles/dog-miscellaneous/3727.html
How can people seriously say that the dog will lead a better life afterwards because it doesn't run the risk of being euthanised for excessive barking
http://information.i-love-dogs.com/dog-articles/dog-miscellaneous/3727.html
How can people seriously say that the dog will lead a better life afterwards because it doesn't run the risk of being euthanised for excessive barking
Silverspring
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
loose, athletic, flexible?
[/ QUOTE ]
But so should dressage horses
the fact is that people that use Rolkur don't believe it causes tension or inhibits a horse's flexibility. Surely if it did then training horses in this way day in, day out would turn them into stiff old neddies who would fall over their own feet trying to piroutte?
I would disagree in the showjumper point, in my view many of the top horses are warmed up and worked in (in the ring) in more than an over bent position, maybe they don't go to quite the same 'chin on chest' extreme but the horses are unable to see much other than the ground which imo is Rolkur.
loose, athletic, flexible?
[/ QUOTE ]
But so should dressage horses
I would disagree in the showjumper point, in my view many of the top horses are warmed up and worked in (in the ring) in more than an over bent position, maybe they don't go to quite the same 'chin on chest' extreme but the horses are unable to see much other than the ground which imo is Rolkur.
Birker2020
Well-Known Member
Incredible - why not just put an anti bark collar on them, or spend time teaching them - the old fashioned way of doing things, but the time tested method which seems to always work.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
Thanks for those links, they are quite shocking. Mind you at the moment my GSD youngster is playing very noisily with her "boomer ball". Debarking is tempting.
CorvusCorax
Deary me...
OK - I have been around dog shows in Ireland and the UK, to a lesser extent, all my life and I can say I have never heard of debarking show dogs. I have the partial deafness to prove it
I have seen it on television in America, but that is as far as my personal experience goes with it.
I have seen it on television in America, but that is as far as my personal experience goes with it.
PapaFrita
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
loose, athletic, flexible?
[/ QUOTE ]
But so should dressage horses
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, in theory, but even to my ignorant eye there are plenty of dressage horses that are NOT and they don't seem to be marked down for it. Difference with SJing is a tense, unsupple horse will have fences down thus rollkur defeats the whole purpose.
[ QUOTE ]
I would disagree in the showjumper point, in my view many of the top horses are warmed up and worked in (in the ring) in more than an over bent position, maybe they don't go to quite the same 'chin on chest' extreme but the horses are unable to see much other than the ground which imo is Rolkur.
[/ QUOTE ]
We must agree to disagree. A horse going overbent/behind the vertical is NOT the same as rollkur, although IMO still undesireable.
[ QUOTE ]
loose, athletic, flexible?
[/ QUOTE ]
But so should dressage horses
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, in theory, but even to my ignorant eye there are plenty of dressage horses that are NOT and they don't seem to be marked down for it. Difference with SJing is a tense, unsupple horse will have fences down thus rollkur defeats the whole purpose.
[ QUOTE ]
I would disagree in the showjumper point, in my view many of the top horses are warmed up and worked in (in the ring) in more than an over bent position, maybe they don't go to quite the same 'chin on chest' extreme but the horses are unable to see much other than the ground which imo is Rolkur.
[/ QUOTE ]
We must agree to disagree. A horse going overbent/behind the vertical is NOT the same as rollkur, although IMO still undesireable.
JoJo_
Well-Known Member
I think SJers horses are seen to be overbent a lot but I dont believe the rider is purposefully forcing the horse's chin to their chest which to me is what rollkur is. Rollkur helps horses not be so spooky in the dressage arena and not look at everything around them but SJers need to focus on fences and see where they are going so it makes no sense for them to use that technique in warmups.
And on the subject of debarking dogs - I had no idea that was going on! Why take on a breed of dog that is known to be a yapper if they dont want a dog that barks?
But saying that I may have to threaten my mum's female Weimaraner next time she goes off on one barking at someone she doesnt know who speaks to me.
And on the subject of debarking dogs - I had no idea that was going on! Why take on a breed of dog that is known to be a yapper if they dont want a dog that barks?
Mistyrocks
Well-Known Member
The horses back is so tense that it's not even tracking up in walk it's being blocked by being pulled in from the front!