100m remote trainers

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gerbilgirl

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I have borrowed one (Will buy if it works well) to use on Polo (Collie Husky cross) as it would genuinely be lovely to see her able to off lead in the fields. However I am wondering (it is charging right now and planning to use this evening), if anyone has used one before and whether it has 'changed' the dog in anyway? I am hopefully going to teach her recall with it, as after 3 years on a long line, both of us are getting fed up. It will also mean she gets far more exercise in our time out, as, although I am quite fit, there is no way I can keep up with her. Having read the training guides on the internet, and having spoken to a search and rescue dog trainer who has used it with 'problem dogs' he has taken on, I am fairly confident in using it, ie. call dog, if she doesn't come back, give warning beep, if that fails, give a shock. It sounds so nasty, but a life on a lead isn't providing enough stimulation for her.

However, no-one seems sure how I would teach her to stop chasing cows with it. Would it be completely unreasonable to use it every time she stared at the cows (typical collie stare), or wait until she starts to chase. Should I start teaching this on a long line, ie. she starts to chase = shock? Or should I combine with the recall, so that she is punished for not coming back, as opposed to the actual chasing.

Has anyone had issues with, when the shock is administered, the dog runs out of fear as opposed to stopping the behaviour (which would be ignoring me and refusing to recall). She's quite an independent dog and not one who will come back to her mummy for a cuddle when she gets scared, which is why I'm wondering about this aspect. I will test on a long line first to see her reaction (obviously won't shock for nothing, will bring her up to cows, allow her to attempt to start chase, recall, be ignored, shock, and then see reaction). Any other ideas.

Also any other issues I need to think about, and good/bad experiences?

Help much appreciated, thanks.
 
I would try and find someone experienced with using them before you start.
I have always been taught to administer any deterrent at the 'look', not once the chase has started.
If you have consulted a trainer already, then I would ask that trainer to actually be there and help you.

Use with a long line to begin with.

As mentioned before, shock collars can actually increase drive in certain dogs - fight AND flight.
Or if the dog is sensitive, it can ruin them.
Personally speaking, and I don't want to come over like Old Father (or mother!) Time but I personally would not be happy with a young person using one of these things without guidance, however much experience you have had with dogs.

How did you get on in Dublin?
 
Dog certainly couldn't be described as sensitive, she's the toughest little thing I know.

I will be using with mum present, and if I am in the slightest not happy with the way the dog reacts, will stop using it, and perhaps try again in a year or so.

We got eliminated in all three classes, but because of silly mistakes by me, and I was just so happy that she didn't leave the ring, but she didn't even try to and was very fixed on her 'job' in the ring :). It felt like a fantastic achievement as she was so dog aggressive when we first got her, yet took no interest in those standing around the ring. The lack of warming up area meant she had to behave off lead in a public park with lots of other dogs running offlead, and not a word out of her :). So was very happy :D
 
have you tried other training methods ?

exhausted them?

i personally think the electric shock collar should only be used by a very experienced trained professional in last chance cicrumstances.

they are banned in wales now because they are so cruel when used willy nilly.

for recall there are very effective non negative reinforcement training methods.

personally i wouldnt let you near a dog.
 
I used one on my rottie, Sage. She was nipping at the horses heels and stressing them. I cannot hold a horse and discipline a dog at the same time so went for the remote.
She "felt"it once and thereafter I only had to use the audible warning. She no longer needs it and no longer bothers the horses.
Has it changed her? No way she is as daft as ever but safe.
You do have to be careful though, make sure you give a spoken command and reinforce with the collar if ignored, not just rely on the collar alone.
 
@ CC and Mattilda, I used it tonight and, within a few shocks, she was returning straight away, and when the bullocks chased us in anticipation of her chasing them, she walked calmly by my side every time she was asked. I'm certainly going to buy it, as it will be £160 well spent to see her able to sniff everything she wants to, etc, without terrorizing the cows and my nerves.

And yes, cieron, I have tried other training methods. I'm not spending that amount of money for the fun of giving my dog static shocks...? As for not letting me near a dog, blah blah blah.

I will take some photos of her tomorrow when I have her out in it (though it will just be on her in case she would realise it's not there), so you can all see the recall :)
 
I'm glad everything have went well, but personally, I still feel that remote trainers/electrical collars, for these purposes, only should be used under the supervision of an experienced trainer. It is so important with the timing, if you react too soon or too late, you maybe doesn't teach your bitch what you want to teach her.

It isn't just the risk of her running off or, as CaveCanem mentioned, that it can increase drive and make them want to fight, some becomes desensitised to the shock and some becomes mental wrecks, even though their owners perhaps thought they where tough before the training. And, as Mattilda's reply shows, it can sometimes work for individual owners on their own and work the way they wanted, but what if you and your bitch had not been one of those that it works for? It is a big responsibility to try and use an electrical collar as a training aid.

As said, I'm glad that you feel that it worked for you.
 
It was genuinely her last chance to get off lead, so I am incredibly happy that it was a success :).

When we had the recall sorted, working away from the cows, she was happy to walk along side me and ignore the cows, even on a long line she would have been constantly straining to get to them.
 
Just wondering why you asked advice and then went straight out and used it anyway?

I found your comment "However, no-one seems sure how I would teach her to stop chasing cows with it" a bit strange, when livestock chasing is a primary reason why e-collars are used, but there you go.

Glad you made progress at the show.
 
Well on reading your opening post I was going to reply advising you took her out with an exerienced trainer, but obviously too late for that. :( It concerns me that you say she had "a few shocks", in one session. I am not against electric collars in the right hands, although have never used one myself, however those people I know who have used them (with guidance to start with) have not given several shocks on the first session. You refer to them as static shocks, it is actually a bit more than that, more like what you get off an electric fence.Have you tried the collar on your own wrist? That is what the people I know who have used them did, so that they knew exactly what it would feel like with the dog and I have tried one on myself, just out of curiosity.
 
I guess it's too late now but you have completely the wrong idea about how to use an EC. They should be used as a form of communication and PRAISE when vocal commands are not heard due to prey drive. They should be used on the lowest setting possible and the dog should be taught in an enclosed space that the buzz means recall for a treat. They should never be used for punishment for prey instincts as over time (or even quicker) the dog will learn that the animal it wants to chase give it a shock - the result can be the dog will want to kill the prey before the shock happens and can make the chase instinct far worse.

The feeling you need to establish (on yourself first) is what setting gives a buzz that feels like a cross between something crawling on your skin and a static shock from a tap. Turn it up one for the dog to take into account of the fur.

I start in my lounge and call my dog (and beep the collar simultaneously), then buzz. If there is a response, even a look, I praise and treat. The dog learns that the buzz means 'come here'. Once this is established it can be moved outside and into more distracting situations.

If there is a lot of distraction the 'buzz' may need to be turned up a bit but full shock should never be needed.

Again an EC should never be used as a punishment - it can cause unwanted behaviours :(
 
I&S I would use an item like this not as a punishment, but as an 'oi!' device (hence my mention of using it on the 'look' not during the chase), then once the dog had looked round, recall and praise. When other 'oi!'s like a lead check or vocal command have not worked. I have used a pinch collar to do the same, but only under the guidance of three trainers.

I also know of them being deliberately used to increase drive and indirectly, as you mention, the shock can make the dog more aggressive/prone to chase.

However essentially I agree with all your points - for me it is an attention-grabber, not a punishment. I used the word 'deterrent' - meaning, deterring the dog from looking at the object of interest, then by looking at me, good things come.

OP, my mother has owned, bred, judged GSDs for 40 years but I would not consider her a person I would take with me for guidance when using an e-collar, because she HAS NO EXPERIENCE IN USING ONE, correctly or not.
You said in a post a few weeks ago that your parents 'weren't interested in the dogs' - so I guess your mother hasn't used an e-collar then? How is that experienced guidance?

There are a lot of people who would like to see the e-collar banned. Posts like these won't help :(
 
CC, I thought you just meant an adult with me whilst using it.

The collar was first used on Sunday. I had her out yesterday and today in it, and haven't had to use anything but the warning beep on her since Sunday. She is doing perfect recalls past the cows, etc, and understands that she has freedom until she is called.

I'm beginning to think that my little Husky x might just be able to do obedience competitions over the summer, as she is behaving like a little angel. Now I just have to see how she reacts when the collar is removed.

I also used it on Charlie last night. This was the first time I had him out in the fields off lead without him running home, since he discovered our cats. As Polo and Lola adore the cats, the cats don't even move when they see Charlie flying at them, and on more than one occasion he managed to get hold of one (we always got them back okay, thankfully). After a couple of buzzes, he got the message and by the end of the evening he just needed a warning beep when he took a notion for them. The beep is enough to remind him he's not allowed at them. We were able to enjoy a walk across the field, off lead.

I can see how easily harm could be done with an e-collar, but I must be doing something right as the dogs are obviously better exercised when I can let them off lead, and Polo can finally run about and sniff the grass like a dog should :), and that's only after three days of use.
 
And yes, I was too inquisitive and did try it on my hand :p. It certainly would catch your attention lol. And I'm not working with it at full strength, we're working at level 5/6 out of 8, which is bearable when I touch it. Both dogs also have thick coats and I'm using the shorter pins, as I haven't figured out how to put the longer ones in, so that put it a few levels lower than it's set at.
 
gerbilgirl said:
I also used it on Charlie last night. This was the first time I had him out in the fields off lead without him running home, since he discovered our cats. As Polo and Lola adore the cats, the cats don't even move when they see Charlie flying at them, and on more than one occasion he managed to get hold of one (we always got them back okay, thankfully). After a couple of buzzes, he got the message and by the end of the evening he just needed a warning beep when he took a notion for them. The beep is enough to remind him he's not allowed at them. We were able to enjoy a walk across the field, off lead.

I can see how easily harm could be done with an e-collar, but I must be doing something right as the dogs are obviously better exercised when I can let them off lead, and Polo can finally run about and sniff the grass like a dog should :), and that's only after three days of use.
Click to expand...

Please be aware though that over time, using the collar for chase prevention can result in the dog killing something in order to stop the thing being chased hurting it. It isn't something that happens straight away - it builds over time. You are using the EC in the opposite way to how it is supposed to be used. People like you are the reason why they are being banned. You have got completely the wrong idea about how to use them.

Edit - they should NEVER be used as a punishment - that is just barbaric!
 
"I would try and find someone experienced with using them before you start."

"If you have consulted a trainer already, then I would ask that trainer to actually be there and help you."

"I personally would not be happy with a young person using one of these things without guidance, however much experience you have had with dogs."

Don't think I mentioned the word 'adult' there at all?

Oh well, glad it is all working out for you, I know people who have taken weeks and months to get results from these gadgets. As mentioned, you need to be very careful to back up whatever you are doing with very precise timings and vocal commands or the dog will respect the collar, not you.
 
As well as everything else mention, you should have put it on the dog at least a week before you intended to use it, so the dog didn't learn to associate the shock with the collar.
Now the dog may well learn you can only get it when the collar is on and will have to wear one all the time.
 
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