16hh laminitis pedal bone rotation - told horses dont recover HELP!

Is the specialist farrier Jim Ferrie?? If not, speak to him and the laminitis clinic. I would take the advice of robert eustace (Laminitis Clinic) and Jim far above that of the Glasgow Vet School. I'm not saying what they suggest is wrong, but I would always consult these two.

The most important thing to do is determine why she got laminits. That in itself may determine whether or not any course of action is appropriate. I hope she is ok.
 
Forgot to add, Lily is a very energic, youthful 18yr old and people are always surprised at her age as she behaves like an 8 yr old ;)

You are right though her age, character, attitude, strength and will all need to be carefully considered for her best interests not mine :)

As things develop we will review what this means for her, not only the operation but the follow up box rest, therapy etc etc
 
Thank you cm2581 for the vote of confidence in Jim Ferrier and the laminitis clinic.

Jim is back from hols Mon and he is on my hit list followed by the clinic. Vet was going to call clinic for email address (on Monday) for x-rays but I told her I'd get it for her, so I'll get her to email them to Jim also when I've spoken to him :D you have heartened me once again.

H&H members TOTALLY ROCK!!!
 
I'm sorry I haven't read all other posts but if it were one of mine, I'd be sending bloods to laminitis clinic and giving consideration to the stability of the gut. Hi fi lite, 24hr soaked hay and pink power and nothing else (apart from drugs). Any changing of feed, even from one laminits safe feed to another can be enough to seriously upset them. Fitting hoof boots with pads could also increase her comfort in the immediate short term. Poor horsey and poor you.

BTW Ferrie, not Ferrier!! That'd just piss him off!! :-)
 
cm2581

Thanks for the correction, nothing worse than getting off on the wrong foot!

Am going to request blood work tomorrow morning.

On the feed front she was on Alpha A, bought hifi lite but not convinced she is convinced she's that fussed on it. Had a few handfuls of Happy Hoof and used a small one to get the Danilon in as she was picking about the Hifi even with formula 4 feet in it (which she is use to and eats happily), not sure if putting her back on breathe free was a contributing factor. I'll find out this morning by giving her a small handful of the hifi with F4F, Danilon and no breathe free to see what she thinks.

She presently has frog supports (jeez the seem to move readily btw or maybe me being careful not to be tight over the coronary means I'm not being tight enough to hold them in place 100%) but have seen mentioned hoof boots and pads before (not sure if on this thread or another on H&H).

With so many boots on the market is there a set that know have worked and what sort of pads are we talking?
 
Tashza just read about the tendon op that has been suggested to you.

My personal opinion is that it is not necessary, if there was no other choice for a horse of mine I think I would PTS.
 
Andy

I want to see the tendon op as a last resort as it is so drastic :(

I cant sleep at night for thinking about what is right for her and doubt myself until I go down to see her each and every time, she is so bright. She is fighting and willing and knows her limitations better than anyone - in that I trust her.

She has been more active the last 24 hrs but she is on basically 6g danilon a day (upped on Thursday night to ensure comfort) for a start and how many times have we seen an animal (any animal, dog, cat, even people) rally before they slump so I do watch her like a hawk and spend as much time with her as possible so she knows I am there for her and she is not abandoned to get on with it. I also make sure she has quiet, restful time to herself. She is lying down each night (which is normal when stabled), usually when out 24/7 she's lying down around 9am gets up for breakfast than has a lie down snooze at 11am!

If we have no choice but the operation route it will be discussed very carefully analysing all the pros and cons and what it means for her before making any decision.

I have 2 calls to make today and 4 tomorrow which I hope has them all saying no need for op and concurring on same/similar strategy.

Keep sending healing wishes to my girl because I'll take any little bit of help no matter how strange ;)
 
Just read your thred tashza. Firstly, huge hugs to you and your girl.

Hopefully it will not come to tendon surgery.
 
My girl is a good 15.3hh, she had fat laminitis with slight rotation in May 2008. The vets were not doom and gloom at all, even though she took a while to recover, they just said to box rest her on deep bedding and feed soaked hay. She was box rested for about 5 months and then another month or so in a mini paddock then I started riding her gently. She was built back up to normal work and has been regularly hacked since, including trotting on the roads, has done pleasure rides and has hunted. She has flat feet too. So I don't understand why they are suggesting drastic things at this early stage? I would say it is far too soon to panic..
 
Have you read 'Founder, Prevention and Cure' by Jaime Jackson? It's a great book, the case studies are amazing, and the overriding message is that with laminitis you have TIME. Don't rush into something as horrific as cutting tendons, at the very least until you've read the book!! If you can control the pain, discover what is causing the laminitis, and resolve that, the foot will then heal itself - you can't force the pedal bone back into place, you can only allow the growth of a healthy new hoof. My girl (who is 20 this year) had surgery last year for a foot problem, and developed laminitis as a result of the stress/anaesthetic. She was in horsepital when it happened, so was treated very quickly and x-rays showed no rotation, but she grew in her hooves at a different angle and had a massive event line from the time of the laminitis. She is fine now, back in work and looking great. I did have a difference of opinion with the vet about treating the lami, so she started off in heart bars which I had removed after the first six weeks and from then on was barefoot. If it happened again (God forbid), I would not even have heart bars on her - all they seemed to do was squish the foot, and you can get plenty of support from bedding/frog supports/boots with pads, all of which have less impact on an already sore foot.
 
Thank you so much folks for your continued support and advice.

Lily has been more active the last few days, but as said before on 6g danilon per day. She did escape yesterday which frightened me half to death and gave her quite a chastising which went completely over her head ala giving a teenager a lecture, if she could roll her eyes she would have!!!!

I spoke at great length to a laminitis specialist farrier, who was shocked at the only option offered being cutting tendons. This gentleman explained everything to me over the phone, asked loads of questions, made sure I understood what he was saying, gave accounts of other cases and how he approaches and deals with laminitis as well as most if not all cases returning to full work.

I am at present doing my due dilligence in checking him out (which he also said I should do) and am waiting to hear back from 2 places. I checked the farriery registered to ensure he is qualified.

He has asked for photos of her standing, side view of feet, description of sole (so ascertain if penetration happening/going to happen) as video of her to see what she is doing (he quite some distance away).

Just off to get more Danilon from vet and arrange x-rays to be emailed to him.

Once all my diligence done etc etc and horse treated I will give full write up of who etc etc ;)
 
This is all falling apart :(

Specialist willing to come but as I cant find a farrier locally so far he will need to bring his own van/tools which means in all 3 days, one travelling here, one to do the work and another to travel back.

Costs spiralling out of control and this is only for the first fit.

I think a few people mentioned some names on the barefoot side or information that would be helpful from that side.

I will read through again but jump in as if we can not resolve this very soon we have no choice whatsoever but to have Lily PTS.

This is tearing me apart limb from limb :'(
 
Post on the UKNHPC site - full of friendly and knowledgable people, many of whom have dealt with laminitis. Do you have any idea of cause yet? I suspect that is the key - if you can remove the cause, the horse can recover.
 
Most decent farriers can cope with laminitis- my own farrier dealt with my girl, he liaised with my vet, looked at the x-rays and did all the necessary. Laminitis recovery is largely a waiting game though..so don't give up yet!
 
Hi its Lorna here, are you still not having any luck with a farrier? I was talking to Laura about it today and i am afraid i do not know what to suggest. You appear to be already doing everything I would suggest. Dont give up hope yet please. To give you hope wee Dusky was out in her field today for a short time for the first time in a few months and she seems to be well on the road to recovery. I have never heard or cutting the tendons for laminitis and it does sound severe is this to free up the back of the pedal bone or something? Did you get her tested for cushings? Megan had several cushings symptoms which to be honest it doesnt sound like lilly has but you never know. Megan was drinking about 3 of the big white water buckets a night and more thru the day, she was very depressed and very hairy and having sweats was very thin and lost all her topline. She was tested in march and started treatment (pergolide) the day we got the results. Within 2 days she was improving. You only have to look at her to see she is a different horse to what she was in March.
I hope you find a solution to your problems with Lilly x
 
Soloeq
I will certainly look at the UKNHPC site, but am so shattered mentally I'll have to do it when I get up in the morning.

Dogstar
Thank for the support I appreciate yours and everyone's very much.


On a brighter note, a friend took action and caught her farrier who agreed for me to phone him. We talked and he is willing to have a look. I am under no illusion that rotation in 4 feet is a completely different ball game to usual one or two...... He has asked for photos of feet and x-rays so he can compare the 2. The plan at the moment is he'll visit and discuss with vet after his rounds tomorrow (Thurs) and see Lily after his rounds on Fri.

Pasha
I'm south west scotland which is a bit out of the way for anything in life in general let alone involving horses :/

Lorna
Thats great to hear about Dusky and she is an inspiration as is your Megan. As you say on the surface it doesnt appear to be cushings, not drinking excessively, blew her coat as normal, not noticed any unusual sweats etc.

All we can put it down to is the grass being different from previous years due to the weather and the 2 injuries one after the other, the first being minor but the hind tendons with her kicking the gate or through it and the trauma/bruising and possibly stress of it is what pushed her over the edge. She hasnt had any injections, not eaten anything unusual that we are aware of that would result in the laminitis especially causing rotation of all 4 :( it is a mystery which is worrying in itself.

It is so hard to know and decide what is the right thing to do when you keep getting setbacks, but Dusky and Megan also show how resilent and strong they can be too. Megan not only lost her stable mate but her baby and you have been amazingly strong for her through it all.

You are welcome to come visit, get Laura to bring you across if you prefer ;)
 
You may well find that keeping shoes off is a better approach to managing laminitis. Ask on the UKNHCP forum - there are quite a few folks there with real life experience of managing laminitics

I've sent you a PM with some suggestions and info

One thing you may wish to consider is getting insulin and glucose tested and then working out your RISQ or MIRG on ecirhorse. If it is insulin resistant then metformin is the drug. I have my pony on it at the moment and it's made a real difference to him.
 
I'm in SE England so my farrier wouldn't be any good to you, but maybe if you put a post up in here and other forums specifically asking for farrier recommendations in your area, someone maybe able to help?

You never know, there maybe someone not far from you who is 'shipping' in a specialist that you could share costs with?

I wish you the very best of luck x
 
so whats happened to lilly there has been no progress report here .

I have had a similar journey Tashza i love my my more than life itself we have had many many set backs, people keep saying give it 6 months then throw in the towel but how can you when your mare is fighting doesnt want to give up
 
Tashza said:
I bought hifi lite today and she had a little but did not finish the small amount I gave her to try, I did however manage to get a little happy hoof which I am now doubting.

The person who gave me a few handfuls, uses it for their horse who had bad laminitis with rotation (not sure if both feet affected but one was bad) about 6 years ago but will try the hifi lite again tonight with a little formula 4 feet and danilon and see how she goes.

It was good to speak to someone tonight in person who fought for their horse who was box rested for 5 months and showing me feet, explaining and discussing her case etc.

The leaf of hay I got last night will have soaked 24hrs when I go down (emptied the water out this morning and refilled) so will try her with a bit of this to see how she fairs with her COPD :/

I will join the themetabolichorse yahoo list and read as much as I can ;) but must head off down to my girl right now.
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Bear in mind that horses do take time to come round to more miserably gruel like feeds unless they are greedy chops to start with. Try mixing the hifilite with the happy hoof and then gradually reduce out the happy hoof until just hifilite remains.
 
Have you been in touch with the laminitis clinic, they may be able to help you with a suitable farrier, plus they are brilliant at giving advice. My farrier is not classed as a specialist as such he is just damn good! He asked to see my horse's X-rays and shod him with specialist shoes accordingly. He is the one who got J sound after he had pedal bone rotation. J was officially retired for three years as we went from v lame to paddock sound on painkillers, but lame on hard ground...gradually improving over time to being totally sound all round on painkillers, reducing painkillers to occasional use ie when ground hard in summer and winter. My boy is now 20 and has been totally sound on no painkillers at all for two years. He is now back in work and was feeling so good decided to take me for an unplanned gallop down the bridal path.
Fingers crossed for you, another vote for ACP in sugar free polos. I fed hi fi lite in the beginning and still soak hay, he now on happy hoof.
 
i look after a wonderful 17.3 warm blood,he is back in again.In 2010 his owner insisted on feeding him vast quantities of food(if you feed them competition feed they become competition horses),unlimited hay,& turned out all day,and rode him in menage for 30 mins twice a wk,and not suprisingly he developed laminitis,as soon as he came sound she was feeding again.In Jan 2011 he went down in his box,vet called,x-rays done,rotated pedal bones,both front.he was on complete box rest until Feb this year when she decided to send him away to be ridden(Farriers advice) 2 wks later he`s home and lame.I have spoken to Vet & farrier,they tell me a very different story from what the owner tells me.He went out again 2 wks ago,but yesterday,through boredom,anxiety had a mental moment,flipped out,ripped bar shoe off and is now in & lame.PLEASE HELP how do i get through to this person she is killing her horse,i`ve tried so hard to reduce his feed,i throw half away before he gets it(she works7.30am-7.30pm)I try & keep his bed clean & dry.But at wk end his bed is a swamp,and god alone knows what she feeds him.
The Farrier has told her he will come 100% right,he is now 9 yrs old,has done a dozen pre lim dressage tests,what hope is there for him,i`ve looked after him since he was 4 yrs old.She has lost 2 horses in last 15 years exactly the same way.He is in on 4 inch deep shavings,over rubbermatting.Do i need to take the wet out,do i deep litter,Sorry this is such a rambling,all over the place message,but i can see this horse in a hole in the ground very soon.
 
Im so sorry to hear of your problems & cannot begin to imagine how fried your brain is right now.The only thing i can add along with alot of others is do get a cushings test done.I had an 11 year old mare who went down with laminitis during the winter she was not overweight showed no symtoms of cushings but sure enough she tested positive! Mine sadly was not a happy outcome after her pedal bone almost popped through her sole.However i think my point is to rule out cushings because sometimes even with all the best treatment in the world you are fighting a losing battle.I do take my hat off to you as you are definately getting the best help you can & i soo hope yours is a happy outcome.Wishing you all the best.xx
 
he has been tested for cushings and is clear,his whole situation has been brought on by his owner,i`m just his nanny. I`m just at my wits end,everytime i go back after wk end she has some new regime which lasts a wk.She is still giving him a large scoop of happyhoof,an apple,&handful of nuts twice a day,plus 3 large haynets(i have got my own way with the 12 hr soaking)Farrier coming tomorrow to fit a glue on aliminium shoe.Do i need to make his bed deeper,it`s about 4 inches of shavings on rubber matting.Should i keep it clean and dry or deep litter?
 
Tashza said:
UPDATE:

Call from vet advising chased vet school who advise the following:-

Up to them
Cut both hind digital flexor (?) tendons
Cast legs
Cast feet with shoes
14 days stay

This means loading her with painkillers etc to get her there unless we can get another vet that is closer to home by some 30 miles who was previous consultant there to do work.

In touch with a specialist laminitis farrier who I hope to speak to on the phone very soon to see what he advises.

Phoning laminitis clinic to discuss feeding and get email so vet can send x-rays.


Does anyone have any experience/been through cutting of tendons????
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saw this done to a poor pony on our yard. i have to say i think it was barbaric..didn't help either the poor thing was in agony afterwards.
 
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