1st Time with Lami very confused

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mums the groom

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Hi guys

my welsh Section B has come down with a slight dose of laminitis (farrier caught it early). he advised to leave in for 2 weeks on soaked hay so the boy has been in for 2 weeks on soaked hay I cant feel any heat in his hooves or feel a pulse (but that could be me doing it wrong). Farrier is coming back at beginning of next month to check on him again, but the boy is getting very grumpy being in all the time would it be safe to let him out every other day now we are getting frosts and would you put a grazing muzzle on even though it is November (we still have lush fields with grass & clover) he would be out from about 8.30am to about 2.30-3pm is this advisable. he is being clipped (irish) to help him shiver the weight off over winter. I just don't now how to handle this all the advise seems to be on chronic laminitis, and how can you tell if they are better. Thank you for reading through to the end
 
I've a little mini that i can't let near frosty grass on a sunny day or else she gets crippled immediately. I have another one who isn't effected that way at all. personally I wouldnt risk it. I'd stick a muzzle on and section of a paddock giving soaked hay if the lami gets worse.
 
I would turn out with a muzzle on and keep in overnight, personally I wouldn't let him shiver the weight off because with the soaked hay and grazing restrictions the weight will come off anyway. Get him tested for cushings and ems - my shetland kept getting recurring bouts of lgl and despite being carefully managed he tested positive for ems and had to go on metformin.
 
I wouldn't risk that at all. Lush grass and clover is the worst for laminitics. It may help to put a grazing muzzle on to limit his intake in general but usually you find there are underlying reasons for laminitis -i.e. Overweight , EMS
 
I've been wondering about the frosty grass thing. I'm also a first time laminitis owner, we are almost 3 weeks in.
I was told when my horse is allowed Turnout over night would be preferable. That means he gets the frost though?
 
Acute laminitis is a medical emergency.

You need to find the cause of the laminitis; at this time of year, it is usually carb overload from rich grass - however, the pony should be tested for PPID and IR, as if you don't ameliorate the cause you are going to end up in a laminitic cycle.

Just putting the pony on soaked hay isn't going to do anything unless the actual cause is identified.

How old is the pony, is he very overweight? Sorry to be blunt but "shivering the weight off" is incredibly cruel. If a pony is cold enough to be shivering, then it certainly isn't going to want to do anything productive.

The pony needs to be off grass completely until PPID/IR is ruled out definitively. Until then, yes soak hay, which should be weighed (if the pony is overweight, give 1.5% of current body weight or 2% of target body weight - whichever is GREATER - you do NOT want to starve the pony). Give in slow feeding hay nets, alongside buckets of oat straw chaff. All food should be less than 10% starch and sugar combined (NSC).

X-rays of the effected feet would be ideal, and a remedial trim applied to align the bony column correctly. Until the bony column is realigned (if there is any rotation), then the laminitic feet will not be corrected. Frog supports should be applied. In the first instance they can be duct taped on; using hoof boots and pads is an easier and less work intensive longer term measure.

Going back to your post, frosted grass can actually trigger laminitis, so (again) until the metabolic status of the pony is determined, then no grass should be allowed.
 
As above. Id strongly advise xrays to see if there's any rotation.
Then you know what you are dealing with and if its safe to allow the pony to exercise or have any grass.
Lush grazing isn't suitable, if you only have access to this, id get a section where its bare and feed hay.
Check bagged feed, loads of commercial "laminitis" feeds contain too much sugar, feed as basic as possible.
Avoid frosty turnout.
If you turn out overnight, just bring in by 7/7.30 to avoid the sun getting on frosty grass.
I find my mare isn't affected much by it but my friends horse is so she brings in before the sun comes out....
My mare is best trimmed every 4-5 weeks (hoof balance important for laminitics), feed is hay, a track from spring to autumn so little grazing, maximum movement....
 
I will also repeat ad nauseum he should be on a deep bed for 30 days post being sound off all drugs the damage is done weeks after the initial incident when the horse is moved too soon and the laminae are not properly healed. That is when you can get serious rotation and or founder/sinker. If he isnt settled in the stable a small area in a sand school could be used instead but again it is not so much food that is the limiting factor but movement. Obviously food needs to be changed and soaked hay and plenty oat straw chaff with any medication in it is great.
 
I think sometimes people forget that laminitis is the biggest killer of ponies. Everyone knows someone whose pony has had it and been fine, but once you have sinking only 30% recover. That means 70% die from it. And thats just on the initial attack. My vet told me that once they had an episode like that that laminitis would get them in the end, it was just a matter of when. You need to do everything in your power to make sure that the pedal bone doesnt sink.
 
It's simply not legal for a farrier to give advice on treating a horse with laminitis without input from a vet .
It's wrong and as an owner you should know this .
Get a vet to advise you on your pony in your situation any less is avoiding your responsibilities legally and ethically as the owner .
 
Goldenstar said:
It's simply not legal for a farrier to give advice on treating a horse with laminitis without input from a vet .
It's wrong and as an owner you should know this .
Get a vet to advise you on your pony in your situation any less is avoiding your responsibilities legally and ethically as the owner .
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this you need to get a vet
 
He mustnt be allowed near frosty grass (Google laminitis, frosty grass, fructans). I would turn out on a bald starvation paddock with numerous piles of last year's hay, once ok'd to do so by the vet.
 
mums the groom said:
Hi guys

my welsh Section B has come down with a slight dose of laminitis (farrier caught it early). he advised to leave in for 2 weeks on soaked hay so the boy has been in for 2 weeks on soaked hay I cant feel any heat in his hooves or feel a pulse (but that could be me doing it wrong). Farrier is coming back at beginning of next month to check on him again, but the boy is getting very grumpy being in all the time would it be safe to let him out every other day now we are getting frosts and would you put a grazing muzzle on even though it is November (we still have lush fields with grass & clover) he would be out from about 8.30am to about 2.30-3pm is this advisable. he is being clipped (irish) to help him shiver the weight off over winter. I just don't now how to handle this all the advise seems to be on chronic laminitis, and how can you tell if they are better. Thank you for reading through to the end
Click to expand...

Having lost one to lami and two others suffer or are risk - I wont turnout before 8am and then later when frosty he goes out 89 am - 11 am then in till 1.30 when he goes out and back in 4pm - seems to work for him. There was a thread on this a while ago, i will see if i can find it for you.

Ps will pm you aswell
 
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mums the groom said:
Hi guys

my welsh Section B has come down with a slight dose of laminitis (farrier caught it early). he advised to leave in for 2 weeks on soaked hay so the boy has been in for 2 weeks on soaked hay I cant feel any heat in his hooves or feel a pulse (but that could be me doing it wrong). Farrier is coming back at beginning of next month to check on him again, but the boy is getting very grumpy being in all the time would it be safe to let him out every other day now we are getting frosts and would you put a grazing muzzle on even though it is November (we still have lush fields with grass & clover) he would be out from about 8.30am to about 2.30-3pm is this advisable. he is being clipped (irish) to help him shiver the weight off over winter. I just don't now how to handle this all the advise seems to be on chronic laminitis, and how can you tell if they are better. Thank you for reading through to the end
Click to expand...

I found it by good old google - may help you http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...t-please-share-your-s&p=13566865#post13566865
 
Casey76 said:
How old is the pony, is he very overweight? Sorry to be blunt but "shivering the weight off" is incredibly cruel. If a pony is cold enough to be shivering, then it certainly isn't going to want to do anything productive.
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I hope the OP doesn't actually mean shivering it off literally. I Irish clip mine to get him to lose weight in winter and have heard people describe it as "shivering the weight off" but he is never shivering or miserable, if he was I would rug, he just needs to use a bit more energy to keep warm so he loses weight. He's much happier clipped and out at grass than muzzled, in a restricted area, or stabled.

I agree with the rest though, pony needs to be seen by a vet before re-introducing grass especially lush grass with clover, and I certainly wouldn't be clipping for weight loss whilst the pony is stabled and possibly uncomfortable.
 
I'm sure the OP didn't actually mean shivering the weight off, seems to me it was just a stress release thing to say, laminitis sends the majority of owners stir crazy (Me included or maybe I am the only one who goes stir crazy)

As an aside and not posted to put any fear into anyone, just true and took me by surprise/shock and sadness at the time
Years ago on a yard, hardly saw the people who owned 2 horses, one was a huge gentle horse, husband appeared every so often took him hunting, wife seemed to do the daily chores
Horse who hunted was clipped and we had a mild spring, rugs came off, owners of the 2 horses went away and left someone they knew counting legs
To this day I have no idea what actually happened their allocated field was well away from the yard, owners were away, freezing/snow/wet weather came, that horse was shivering from top to bottom when we found it, (No mobiles then ), no rug on, owners arrived back and that horse then had the most awful attack of laminitis shortly after

This was the first time I ever saw a horse with laminitis. I was the sort of child who bunked off school to be at the stables, rode anything, lived and breathed horses/ponies but never heard or ever saw laminitis until I was in my 20's and even then it seemed fairly rare, now as I become much older it seems to be like an epidemic
 
I would second the need to box rest on deep bed for longer. My OH is a farrier and always recommends rest. The damage needs to heal and that takes time -never to be undersetimated. That time can be used to look at why the pony had laminitis and what to do about it. Agree re vet-a horse vet if possible.
 
Please, please please take this very seriously! my horse was diagnosed with mild case of lami for first time in mid August and I put her to sleep on Monday! I am heartbroken and I did everything right. I called vet after 2 days of lameness, got deep bed, had further vet app 2 weeks later, and x rays taken at week 5. Farrier was due out before xrays so he came and out heart bars on and then adjusted them later to align with xrays. she actually looked to be making a recovery even though she had rotation quite bad in her right front. however about week 10 she had a relapse, a seroma had formed in her sole, another 2 weeks to realise what it was (further farrier, vets, and xrays taken) and once it was diagnosed (take shoe off and more xrays) the pedal bone had dropped and 5 days later she was PTS. i do feel like I did everything I could have done, but things I learnt - get farrier and vet communicating to each other ASAP. get Xrays as you never know what is going on unless you look inside. take all the advice from vet and stick to it. do not try and cut corners early. if you do that, it could be the end. box rest is misrebale, but being put to sleep is worse. And you must must must find out the cause. it wil be cushing or EMS. mine was cushings. already diagnosed 4 years ago, tested every 6 months and medicated according. last test was May - all fine. By August her ACTH levels were 100 over the limit. if I had know that was possible I would have tested every 3 months in summer. I didn't know. the damage was done. I know plenty of people who have dealt with mild lami cases and a few weeks in and everything OK. but they are playing with fire! I did everything I could have and didn't win the battle. Do everything you can while you can as one day you might not get the choice. sorry for this being doom and gloom but I don't want anyone to go through my week if they can avoid it. and there is no such thing as a mild case until you look inside the hoof. My mare was amazing at hiding pain. I wished she hadn't been and she might still be here now.
 
I've heard from several sources that however long it takes for the pony to become sound without drugs, you need to keep in on the same regime for that time time again before turning out etc.
So if it takes 3 weeks to come sound, it needs a further 3 weeks after that to properly recover while on the same diet / regime.
 
Autumn laminitis almost always has an underlying metabolic cause, PPID or EMS, get him tested when you get the vet out.
 
It's all on here http://www.thelaminitissite.org/ - read and read again. The people who run that site are experts, and know much much more than most vets, even equine ones, and certainly more than most farriers. They have the benefit of experience with many many cases and know what they are talking about, and backed up by the likes of Dr Kellon who is a world authority

It's worth remembering that due to the inflammation, the laminae are no longer doing their job of providing an interface between the pedal bone and the hoof capsule, and without them doing that job the bone is at risk of sinking or rotating out of its proper place. So unless the laminae are fully recovered and regenerated (several weeks or months) that pedal bone is being pushed downwards by the bones above and there is nothing to stop it and support it.

It isn't safe to turn out without supporting the bones inside the feet until you KNOW there is no further likelihood of movement - and you will only know that, and how much movement there has been by xraying. Not only that, but the key to keeping them sound and fully recovering is an appropriate trim - and you won't know how that needs to be done without x rays.

If you really cannot keep him on box rest any longer, get boots and pads, styrofoam pads or frog supports to ensure the bony column is fully supported and there is no further movement once he is off his conformable bedding. And sort him a tiny paddock with NO GRASS (even at this time of year, or maybe especially at this time of year) and feed him hay that has been soaked for at least 20 minutes and then rinsed.
Has he been tested for metabolic issues?
 
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Had the vet out this week had blood done, he does not have cushings but his blood sugar is slightly elevated, Vet couldn't feel a pulse and only slight heat in hoof, on Bute for a week been on it 2 days and no heat in foot on rest till Monday when vet out again. the poor boy is never having hay again unless its been soaked :o( Vet advised test his blood in 4-5 months after winter and the Diet he is on and see if he drops weight over the next few months, other than that she said I was doing every thing right and when given the all clear to go out again he's having 2 hours a day in the recovery paddock with stable mate then once spring comes and the clocks go forward he will be in all day and out at night with careful management.
 
linperrie said:
Please, please please take this very seriously! my horse was diagnosed with mild case of lami for first time in mid August and I put her to sleep on Monday! I am heartbroken and I did everything right. I called vet after 2 days of lameness, got deep bed, had further vet app 2 weeks later, and x rays taken at week 5. Farrier was due out before xrays so he came and out heart bars on and then adjusted them later to align with xrays. she actually looked to be making a recovery even though she had rotation quite bad in her right front. however about week 10 she had a relapse, a seroma had formed in her sole, another 2 weeks to realise what it was (further farrier, vets, and xrays taken) and once it was diagnosed (take shoe off and more xrays) the pedal bone had dropped and 5 days later she was PTS. i do feel like I did everything I could have done, but things I learnt - get farrier and vet communicating to each other ASAP. get Xrays as you never know what is going on unless you look inside. take all the advice from vet and stick to it. do not try and cut corners early. if you do that, it could be the end. box rest is misrebale, but being put to sleep is worse. And you must must must find out the cause. it wil be cushing or EMS. mine was cushings. already diagnosed 4 years ago, tested every 6 months and medicated according. last test was May - all fine. By August her ACTH levels were 100 over the limit. if I had know that was possible I would have tested every 3 months in summer. I didn't know. the damage was done. I know plenty of people who have dealt with mild lami cases and a few weeks in and everything OK. but they are playing with fire! I did everything I could have and didn't win the battle. Do everything you can while you can as one day you might not get the choice. sorry for this being doom and gloom but I don't want anyone to go through my week if they can avoid it. and there is no such thing as a mild case until you look inside the hoof. My mare was amazing at hiding pain. I wished she hadn't been and she might still be here now.
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please don't beat yourself up laminitis is an awful condition and it can be very mild one day and withing hours turn into something very serious, I have been there myself it's sometimes very difficult to know what to do for the best, it sounds like you did the very best for your horse and that's all you can do, my horse was recovering 3 months on box rest looked sound was about to start turnout and she just came down with it again and went back to not being able to stand.
 
Equine America Turmeric made all the difference with my gelding, from 2 hrs out and 4 hrs in then 4 out, to now out at 9 and in at 4. Recommended my a livery vet, was the other changing factor with the EMS pony, reduced my geldings flare ups a lot.
 
ILuvCowparsely said:
Equine America Turmeric made all the difference with my gelding, from 2 hrs out and 4 hrs in then 4 out, to now out at 9 and in at 4. Recommended my a livery vet, was the other changing factor with the EMS pony, reduced my geldings flare ups a lot.
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Although this is an old post so I know OP
won't do it please don't give turmeric and bute together if the horse an attack of laminitis, or even if on bute for other reasons. It can cause internal bleeding due to them both thinning the blood.
 
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