2.1 million quid damages

miller

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 June 2005
Messages
2,566
Location
S Lincs
Visit site
I do agree on injuries/payouts etc but this was her own pony she was catching to ride herself - not one yard had asked her to catch. Same as you or me entering a field at a yard to catch our own horse and another kicking us.

I've got nothing against claiming on insurance but in this case I do feel the yard was not negligent.

Nothing against/for the people involved just feel this case is wrong and may inadvertently push parents from sending their children to riding schools to help out - IMHO the best way for kids to learn
 

Ferdinase514

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 February 2006
Messages
8,066
Location
Stradbroke Suffolk
Visit site
It's not as if this girl and her family are trying to screw an insurance company for as much as they can get, when really the accident was minor. The poor girl's life has been ruined and she does need caring for.

At least the insurance was there for them to get compensation. Shame it has taken so long.
 

emma69

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 January 2004
Messages
17,127
Location
Canada
Visit site
I think it is really hard to assess without the full facts. The girl was 'helping out' just as hundreds of riding schools have kids helping out. Whether she was catching her own horse or a yard horse is ambiguous. What I wanted to comment on tho is something someone said about wearing hats and gloves to catch a horse. Riding school insurance says (or at least didn't when I was employed by one) nothing about wearing hats other than when mounted. Unless this changes, yards presumably will not enforce it. Certainly when I was a teenager I didn't wear hats to catch horses (the fact the owner made us wear hats when we rode the horses bareback doing ride and lead down the field was considered OTT by us at the time.....) So which way does it go? Do yards stop having teenagers helping out (and therefore increase lesson and livery costs to all of us, not to mention leaving a huge gaping hole in the education of young people - I did my BHS training alongside helping out for experience before I left school) or do they enforce all staff to wear hats while handling horses (and tis presumably would extend to adults as well, given that whilst the law only dictates minors wearing hats, but insurance companies usually state any mounted rider - the blanket 'whilst around horses' would apply to all ages in a similar way)

As someone who has been through legal wranglings, albeit no where near as severe, I am glad for her and her family that it is sorted out. 2.1M isn't a lot in the grand scheme of things, and I presume the insurance paid, on some ground of negligence (insufficient supervision?)
 

Mr_Ed

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 August 2003
Messages
149
Visit site
I'm not in possession of the full facts on this case and therefore it wouldn't be wise of fair to comment.

But talking more generally the question has to be asked why the horse world, culturally, seems to have a problem with wearing properly secured hats either when mounted or dismounted when undertaking hazardous activities. There is clear evidence that hats save lives. So what is the problem?

Looking at another industry -- the construction industry -- there are often signs at the entrances to building sites stating "no hat, no boots, no job". This rule is strongly enforced across the construction industry. Culturally, wearing personal protective equipment really isn't an issue, even for burly builders working inside buildings sometimes in high temperatures. So please do tell me what is the issue for the horse world.

But before suggesting that anyone around horses should wear properly secured hat at all times, perhaps we need to look at the risks and the requirements for personal protective equipment (PPE) i.e. in this case riding hats. Put simply, the general rule is that it should be used as a last resort where the risk assessment shows that the risk cannot be controlled by any other means. Before everyone rushes to put their hat on, perhaps we need to look at those "other means". With the growing number of horse owners these days, some of which haven't been through traditional training routes, they sometimes lack the training that can prevent accidents. A top international showjumper said "my biggest safety issue is with people who do not turn out horses correctly -- they let horses go without turning them back towards the gate. This is so dangerous, too many people get kicked doing this". I don't think any of us would disagree with this.

There are inherent risks associated with the handling of horses - we all know and appreciate that. Risks need to be assessed and where possible minimised. One of the controls in minimising the risks is raising the level of competence. Effective training is a key in raising competence.

There have been a number of accidents where people have been seriously injured when turning out horses - in fact to my knowledge two children have been killed. It has to be considered a medium to high risk activity. Like everyone else I've turned out horses in the past without wearing a hat. But as I've become more aware of these accidents it's modified my behaviour and now for the sake of a few seconds I always wear a hat.

Unfortunately there will always be accidents through being around horses. What we all need to try and do is prevent the preventable accidents. By doing so we may save a life or a lifetime of incapacity.

So please do tell me what is the problem with getting people to wear properly secured hats in these type of situations?
 

smokeybabes

Well-Known Member
Joined
10 January 2006
Messages
889
Location
Gloucestershire, UK
Visit site
The thing is this girl was getting in her OWN horse and not helping at a riding school. The riding school also had a livery yard. Like has been mentioned, livery yard owners don't agree a creche service by taking on liveries. I've seen parents dumping kids at yards to do their own ponies or even parents riding their horses and leaving kids running around and playing on the yard.
Maye livery yards will have to have arule of no under 16s without an adult responsible for them? And/or insisting hats are worn at all times on the yard? And/or placing horses in individual paddocks? These methods would be the only way to prevent accidents and liability.
I do agree the amount of money is needed to look after her, but can't see how a livery magaer would be responsible. They can't keep an eye on all liveries.
 

lynspop

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 September 2006
Messages
374
Location
scotland
www.trainingtails.moonfruit.com
obviously sympathy goes out to the girl and her family, it was a freak accident that could happen to anyone catching horses in from a field but it does pose a lot of problems for yard owners and their risk assessment etc.

Do we have to make it compulsory for anyone catching a horse to wear a hard hat/gloves etc whether they are employee's/working pupils/liveries etc? Wearing a hard hat cannot protect someone altogether from injuries when working with horses.

That girl could have had her hat on and been kicked in the back by a horse,therefore injuring her spine and confining her to a wheelchair etc for the rest of her life. We cannot wrap everyone who wants something to do with horses up in cotton wool.

Accidents can and do happen- even on the most professional and dilligently run yards.

I hope they invest the money they received sensibly.
 

Mr_Ed

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 August 2003
Messages
149
Visit site
This subject has also appeared in the "Lounge" forum.

What I can't understand is why so many people seem to be getting steamed up about having to wear hats when catching and turning out. Isn't it sensible? What's the problem?

I have to disagree about the words "freak accident". A freak accident to me would be one that has never happened before and one never likely to happen again. This is far from the case with this activity. There have been and probably will continue to be such accidents. It's what we can do to minimise the effect of those accidents when they happen.

Is it really a problem with risk assessments? Surely any yard worth its salt will have already addressed this activity through its risk assessment and implemented controls. Some of the bigger ones that I know have.

The key is to make sure that anybody undertaking this activity has the competence to do so. What's competence? Generally excepted to be a combination of knowledge, experience, the right personal attributes and training.

There's no need to wrap everyone up in cotton wool - something supported by the Health & Safety Commission in their sensible risk management campaign ( web page ). There is evidence to support the most dismounted serious injuries involve the head.

Accidents to happen and will continue to happen -- it's inevitable. Some through the inherent nature associated with equestrianism, but equally some are associated with lack of training, complacency or bad practice.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be provocative or controversial simply to persuade people to try and prevent the preventable accidents.

So what is the issue with wearing properly secured hats when turning out? I do so hope someone can tell me.

Is a mountain being made out of molehill?
 

Puppy

Well-Known Member
Joined
2 February 2006
Messages
31,648
Visit site
[ QUOTE ]
The thing is this girl was getting in her OWN horse and not helping at a riding school.

[/ QUOTE ]

YES, but the court had clearly decided that when she was catching the horse, she was doing so in the capacity of assisting the yard - regardless of the fact the horse happened to be hers.
 

lordflynn

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 November 2005
Messages
1,246
Visit site
[ QUOTE ]


So what is the issue with wearing properly secured hats when turning out? I do so hope someone can tell me.


[/ QUOTE ]

Inconvenience really- and the right to choose as an adult.
 

Puppy

Well-Known Member
Joined
2 February 2006
Messages
31,648
Visit site
[ QUOTE ]
obviously sympathy goes out to the girl and her family, it was a freak accident that could happen to anyone catching horses in from a field but it does pose a lot of problems for yard owners and their risk assessment etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh for goodness sake! It was NOT a freak accident; its a perfectly predicatable scenario!! Maybe not especially likely given how frequently we all catch horses without this occuring - but still predicatable!! Therefore NOT really a "freak" accident at all.

[ QUOTE ]
Do we have to make it compulsory for anyone catching a horse to wear a hard hat/gloves etc whether they are employee's/working pupils/liveries etc? Wearing a hard hat cannot protect someone altogether from injuries when working with horses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Erm, no, but it should be compulsory for all children (under 16s) helping out on livery yards/riding schools to wear hats when handling the horses. Although this may not yet be enforceable by statute, it seems clear that the courts are now happy to find that a duty of care would be owed to the children, in such scenarios; i.e. that the businesses could be found liable if scenarios such as the above occur.


[ QUOTE ]
That girl could have had her hat on and been kicked in the back by a horse,therefore injuring her spine and confining her to a wheelchair etc for the rest of her life. We cannot wrap everyone who wants something to do with horses up in cotton wool.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, she could have been; but I'm not sure the relevance to this discussion?!
confused.gif



[ QUOTE ]
Accidents can and do happen- even on the most professional and dilligently run yards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, they do, but so long as all reasonable steps had been taken to prevent accidents as best as possible then the courts wouldn't find liability; they would accept that sometimes that happens with horses no matter how much care is taken. At what point did this case indicate that courts would be enforcing strict liability on equestrian businesses?!
confused.gif


[ QUOTE ]
I hope they invest the money they received sensibly.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG! Will people stop treating this like some kind of lottery win!! FFS, the girl is disabled!! Thi money has to keep her and her care for the next however many decades, not to mention the impact on her parents' finances!!
 

Puppy

Well-Known Member
Joined
2 February 2006
Messages
31,648
Visit site
[ QUOTE ]
I have to disagree about the words "freak accident". A freak accident to me would be one that has never happened before and one never likely to happen again. This is far from the case with this activity. There have been and probably will continue to be such accidents. It's what we can do to minimise the effect of those accidents when they happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

*Bangs head against wall*

Said it all before.........
smirk.gif
 

burtie

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 October 2003
Messages
4,335
Location
New Forest
Visit site
[ QUOTE ]
Well said. In the great scheme of things this is a terrible accident, and the money is barely enough if that. This is what insurance is for!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

But whose insurance? Why not the owner of the horse that kicked her rather than the livery yard owner? Why not the girls own insurance, did she even have any?

I guess all this will mean is that livery yards will insist on all people wearing hats the moment they get out the car or does this ruling specifically apply beacuse the girl was under 16 and therefore not effect adults. I don't have an issue with the amount, nothing is ever going to make this girl right again and you can't put a price on that. What I still don't understand why the Livery yard owner was found liable in this case? Something I suppose we will never know without seeing the full facts, but it is a worrying developement for all yard owners and I see strick new restrictions rightly or wrongly being applied to all Livery yards.
 

Mr_Ed

Well-Known Member
Joined
5 August 2003
Messages
149
Visit site
Just trying to amplify the point.....

But if you really must bang your head against a wall please do make sure you're wearing a hat and remember to discard it after...........
grin.gif
 

Puppy

Well-Known Member
Joined
2 February 2006
Messages
31,648
Visit site
Given that Sooty's comment was in response to my comments on this thread, have you even read my posts on this subject??

If not, they address many of the issues that you've just raised and I'm afraid I can't be bothered to write them out again. Far too busy banging my head aginst the wall you see
grin.gif
(N.B joke)
 

emma69

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 January 2004
Messages
17,127
Location
Canada
Visit site
Having witnessed people turning their horses out then whacking them on the butt with the leadrope, I absolutly think people have a huge part to play in making things like turning out safer
mad.gif
 

teapot

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 December 2005
Messages
37,589
Visit site
Flicking through latest H&H in smiths the other day - I noticed that there was a little bit about this and then a photo of a girl riding - is it the girl before or after the accident?

Just a thought as I swear it said, riding a new horse etc but may be entirely wrong
 

sunflower

Well-Known Member
Joined
1 June 2005
Messages
12,501
Visit site
Yes there was a picture of her riding a new horse. The article said '.....Katie remained completely dedicated to horses and competed in riding for the disabled association events. Horses have given Katie a big boost in her life' but according to the article she still requires 24hr care and may never be able to live independently.
 

runaway

Well-Known Member
Joined
12 November 2004
Messages
782
Location
In the land of nod where it's safest!
Visit site
Obviously puppy if you are an adult you can make an informed choice and do the wall banging with or with out your hat (bad tasting joke possibly SORRY)

I strongly agree with several of the points here and would support a rule to say any person under the age of 17 (seen as they can drive then it seems a good age) must wear a hat at all times while dealing with horses.

Having read all this though I hold my hands up and admit to changing/altering my horses rug and picking feet out without any restriant on him or hat on my head.... he is at home and in the field by himself so would be totally to blame if anything happened. But I would also accept the blame if I'd done this with him at a yard, I believe.
 

teapot

Well-Known Member
Joined
16 December 2005
Messages
37,589
Visit site
Ahh right, thanks for clearing it up.

Was just wondering as thought the injuries she sustained meant she couldn't do anything as it were for instance ride. I took "24hr care" as being bed-ridden or in a chair etc.

God knows why I did but I did.

H&H online says something about 70% liability was agreed
 

Puppy

Well-Known Member
Joined
2 February 2006
Messages
31,648
Visit site
[ QUOTE ]
H&H online says something about 70% liability was agreed

[/ QUOTE ]

Which pressumably means 30% contributory negligence was atttributed to her (or someone else possibly???), and the damages reduced accordingly.
 

Puppy

Well-Known Member
Joined
2 February 2006
Messages
31,648
Visit site
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously puppy if you are an adult you can make an informed choice and do the wall banging with or with out your hat (bad tasting joke possibly SORRY)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you know, it turns out its really not worth it when its not a headboard....
tongue.gif
 

Seahorse

Well-Known Member
Joined
9 May 2003
Messages
8,289
Location
East Sussex
community.webshots.com
Scarey, when I was the same age (13) the same thing happened to me when I went to catch a horse in the field, luckily I was literally just about to ride and already had my hat on
smile.gif

Wouldn't have had it on normally to bring a horse in tho.........
 
Top