2 horses and a few barefoot questions...

leflynn

leflynn

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Hi,

I'm hoping one of the barefoot taliban can help me out and answer a few questions about our 2 horses...

I have a 6 yo TB ex racer with reasonable condition feet to my eyes and our YO (she says it's his best feature). The are strong, a good shape (apparently) but don't grow very fast. He is currently without shoes as he is on box rest for a fracture. The problem with Ned1 is that he has a habit of throwing shoes left right and centre with no warning other than 'Mum I've been playing and look what I'm missing!' He has even managed to remove one of his own back shoes whilst on box rest... Normally if turned out he has over reach boots on which help, but the swine can contort to still remove his own shoes whilst hooning and playing (which he does a lot of). YO thinks he would be a candidate for no shoes/barefoot/boots if needed.

Obv he is on box rest atm so no rush, but what prep would I need to do to make sure the transistion is a good one when he finally is off box rest, bearing in mind I'll be doing more hacking and roadwork than arena work? His current diet is as follows: Alpha A oil, linseed, high fibre cubes, selenevite e, yea sacc , plus forage which at the moment is haylage (only do haylage on the yard).

Ned2 - very new to us and belongs to my OH, but I help out as he works away sometimes. He is a 6yo chunky cob who is currently barefoot but our yard vet suggested shoeing him as during the vetting he would throw a lame stride when he went over stones and wasn't on a flat surface (sadly I wasn't there to see but have no reason to doubt our vet). Again he has good shaped feet and seem to be strong enough, sadly no idea of growth as only had him a week and a half. The soles do seem a bit soft/crumbly when picking them out esp compared to my TB who has hard soles. He is turned out 24/7 atm and only gets a handful of high fibre cubes if he does any work as a thank you. When he comes in he'll just be in on an evening and will get haylage (trickle netted) and no hard feed probably. He is in work 4-6 days a week, schooling/hacking/roadwork. As far as I know he hasn't ever been given a hard feed (his reaction is a giveaway too!)

Yard vet does support barefoot horses as there are many on our yard! Not sure whether to go against and try an alternative diet (would be difficult to swap away from haylage) or go for boots when out and about?

Any suggestions for either one would be welcome, thank you in advance lovely taliban :D
 
I can't offer very much advice as I am very new to this barefoot stuff and only had my horse's shoes off yesterday. I am very surprised you haven't had a response - there is usually lots of people with plenty to say on the subject on here!;)

It is well worth joining this forum...I did most of me research on there as it is full of facts and experiences...and I've yet to see a post get bogged down in the usual arguments and mud slinging that put me off looking for too much advice on here!

http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/
 
Your first horse will not grow foot quickly while he is on box rest. Work is needed to make feet grow at their fastest rate.

Your second horse may have soles that have suffered from the wet summer or may have a touch of sole sensitivity from the current flush of grass sugars or may have some other dietary imbalance. My guess would be that his problem is "out 24/7" and that he will get better when the grass is dead.

I hate reading about vets who see a horse tread on a stone and take its foot off quickly whose first port of call is "shoe it" !
 
Thanks CP, ned1 never grows foot very quickly even when in work, I've not got enough/any knowledge to know if this is an issue for him to be shoeless/barefoot?

Would you suggest hanging fire with shoeing Ned2 and wait a period of time till the grass is gone (it's fairly poor atm as the weather is vile where we are) and then his hoof condition might improve? To me it seems odd as he hasn't had shoes for the last 2 years and has been hacked out, but then he hasn't done a lot of work and I don't know what he has been out and about on.

Our vet doesn't normally suggest shoeing to be fair, he's more than happy for them to go without - this makes me think there's something to it?
 
Basically as CPtrayes said.

The horse will grow the hoof it needs for the work load you're providing so Ned1 should be fine so long as you do it slowly and sensibly.

Ned2 sounds like he either has soft soles or a touch of LGL (low grade laminitis) from the autumn flush of grass. I would prefer to boot which ever the vet think hes lame on to take the hoof out of the equation and if still lame then obv problem lies elsewhere, if not then boots and pads to build up sole and frog :)
 
Thanks for more explaination (I am a bit thick now and then).. Ned1 will have to be slow and sensible as he is likely to come back into work around christmas and part of me thinks just to turn him away till Spring as he is not known for being sensible full time!

Ned2 is a portly chap, but the weight seems to be coming off him now slowly, managed to get 5 kg off him last week so maybe the move to us will do him good. Would you recommend boots for all non soft surface work? Is he likely to be a bit sore hacking out on flat but hard surfaces? Or would you suggest boots for this too?

Sorry I am a total newbie to this :o
 
cptrayes said:
Your first horse will not grow foot quickly while he is on box rest. Work is needed to make feet grow at their fastest rate.

Your second horse may have soles that have suffered from the wet summer or may have a touch of sole sensitivity from the current flush of grass sugars or may have some other dietary imbalance. My guess would be that his problem is "out 24/7" and that he will get better when the grass is dead.

I hate reading about vets who see a horse tread on a stone and take its foot off quickly whose first port of call is "shoe it" !
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Agree with all of this (even though I am not a member of the taliban.)

Regarding the second horse, you might need to think about feeding his feet even though you do not want to give him extra feed. With good nutrients in addition to stimulation by work and also letting his feet stand on a dry bed for a few hours during these soggy days you may see an improvement.

BTW, did the vet mention any indication of thrush ?
 
leflynn said:
Thanks CP, ned1 never grows foot very quickly even when in work, I've not got enough/any knowledge to know if this is an issue for him to be shoeless/barefoot?
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This is because while he is shod, his feet arent in contact with the ground and thus arent stimulated to grow.

I would be inclined to pull his shoes off while he is on box rest to give them the chance to adjust before you ask anything of them. Also adress any potential dietary issues - low sugar and starch all the way and perhaps look at adding at the very minimum, magnesium to his feed, if not a better researched hoof supplement. oh, and my all time favourite magic ingredient - Micronised linseed. and also treat his feet for thrush - it will be there believe me!!

As for Ned2. I would certainly hang fire on shoeing. he may benefit from a magnesium supplement and yes, I would soak your haylage. :)

There is much more to the diet thing but didn't want to overload you ;)
 
horserider said:
Agree with all of this (even though I am not a member of the taliban.)

Regarding the second horse, you might need to think about feeding his feet even though you do not want to give him extra feed. With good nutrients in addition to stimulation by work and also letting his feet stand on a dry bed for a few hours during these soggy days you may see an improvement.

BTW, did the vet mention any indication of thrush ?
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No mention of thrush by the vet at all :)

I'm more than happy to feed him *something* for his feet if that is what is needed :) just not sure what exactly to feed a good doer's feet! at the moment he gets a large handful of high fibre cubes (I figured they were safe) after work soaked in water as a thank you and he wolfs them down.
 
leflynn said:
Thanks for more explaination (I am a bit thick now and then).. Ned1 will have to be slow and sensible as he is likely to come back into work around christmas and part of me thinks just to turn him away till Spring as he is not known for being sensible full time!

His feet need work though to grow and improve, being on a soft field all the time won't achieve this, although still more stimulation than being stabled on box rest :)

Ned2 is a portly chap, but the weight seems to be coming off him now slowly, managed to get 5 kg off him last week so maybe the move to us will do him good. Would you recommend boots for all non soft surface work? Is he likely to be a bit sore hacking out on flat but hard surfaces? Or would you suggest boots for this too?

I was meaning that if the vet thought his lame strides were on the front end, Id boot the fronts to see if this eliminated the lameness (or the hinds if he thought it was a hind) - as a way of trying to fathom which bit of him isnt right. It could be shoulder or back causing lameness, not just the feet! If he is sore out hacking then yes boots if needed, but if you avoid all the challenging surfaces the hoof wont ever adapt to anything other than soft.

Sorry I am a total newbie to this :o
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NP we all start somewhere :)
 
CBFan said:
This is because while he is shod, his feet arent in contact with the ground and thus arent stimulated to grow.

I would be inclined to pull his shoes off while he is on box rest to give them the chance to adjust before you ask anything of them. Also adress any potential dietary issues - low sugar and starch all the way and perhaps look at adding at the very minimum, magnesium to his feed, if not a better researched hoof supplement. oh, and my all time favourite magic ingredient - Micronised linseed. and also treat his feet for thrush - it will be there believe me!!

As for Ned2. I would certainly hang fire on shoeing. he may benefit from a magnesium supplement and yes, I would soak your haylage. :)

There is much more to the diet thing but didn't want to overload you ;)
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Ned1 has been shoeless for over 2 months now :) I fed him magnesium based calmer before and he became less calm so I might be reluctant to feed him that if it makes sense? He is fed Micronised linseed at the moment (brill stuff). I do religously clean his feet and there is a bit of thrush in Ned1 as he has is a scruffy mucky pup! Am I okay feeding alpha a oil to this one? He also gets high fibre cubes, selenvite e and MSM :)

I assume that you soak the haylage to get rid of the sugar from it? I know the diet thing is complicated so thank you for not overloading my tiny brain and sorry for the q's.... ;)
 
High fibre cubes worry me a bit - which brand?

For the good doer - A+P FastFibre (what most of the BFT use to hide minerals) and Pro Balance (ebay made by UKHNCP trimmers)
 
TigerTail said:
High fibre cubes worry me a bit - which brand?

For the good doer - A+P FastFibre (what most of the BFT use to hide minerals) and Pro Balance (ebay made by UKHNCP trimmers)
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D&H high fibre cubes, lowest starch and sugar I could find. I only started giving them to him in his treat balls, then tipped some in his feed and he started to eat better. I could try and remove them from his feed - he only gets a handful and as he is a pig these days I'm sure he'd eat his feed without them


I know of pro balance as I've bought linseed off the same seller!
 
Thank you for the advice/discussion so far, it's appreciated!

Will defo not being getting Ned2 shod this week, I think a bit more time and research is needed :)
 
I personally avoid alfa-alfa and given the poor rate of hoof growth your boy shows, It would probably be better to cut it out... My boy really likes fast fibre which is a great alternative :) AA is very calcium rich which, delpending on where you live will probably throw your calcium:phosphorous ratio out quite a bit... ;)

Soaking haylage will help reduce the sugars :)
 
CBFan said:
I personally avoid alfa-alfa and given the poor rate of hoof growth your boy shows, It would probably be better to cut it out... My boy really likes fast fibre which is a great alternative :) AA is very calcium rich which, delpending on where you live will probably throw your calcium:phosphorous ratio out quite a bit... ;)

Soaking haylage will help reduce the sugars :)
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Hmmm my only worry is that Ned1 would probably drop weight without the alpha a oil as he is prone to it? I also feed him it for fear of ulcers as he cribs (he doesn't have ulcers at present but it is a concern)
 
leflynn said:
Thanks CP, ned1 never grows foot very quickly even when in work, I've not got enough/any knowledge to know if this is an issue for him to be shoeless/barefoot?
Click to expand...

You can't really know until he starts work and you build it up slowly. One of mine takes a month for his feet to realise that work is building up and kick-start some growth. I have also heard of other people with slow-growers who got much faster growth on one of the two supplements especially designed by barefooters.


Would you suggest hanging fire with shoeing Ned2 and wait a period of time till the grass is gone (it's fairly poor atm as the weather is vile where we are) and then his hoof condition might improve?
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I certainly would. The grass will die very soon now and you will know whether he is less footie. Then if not, you can maybe test keeping them drier and see what happens then. It's a wicked autumn for laminitis - cold for days at a time and then a sudden increase in temperature, sun and plenty of water. Fatal!!


Our vet doesn't normally suggest shoeing to be fair, he's more than happy for them to go without - this makes me think there's something to it?
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I think it certainly shows that your vet thought he was sore, but there are other things to explore before you are certain he needs the fuss and expense of shoes.
 
leflynn said:
Hi,

I'm hoping one of the barefoot taliban can help me out and answer a few questions about our 2 horses...

I have a 6 yo TB ex racer with reasonable condition feet to my eyes and our YO (she says it's his best feature). The are strong, a good shape (apparently) but don't grow very fast. He is currently without shoes as he is on box rest for a fracture. The problem with Ned1 is that he has a habit of throwing shoes left right and centre with no warning other than 'Mum I've been playing and look what I'm missing!' He has even managed to remove one of his own back shoes whilst on box rest... Normally if turned out he has over reach boots on which help, but the swine can contort to still remove his own shoes whilst hooning and playing (which he does a lot of). YO thinks he would be a candidate for no shoes/barefoot/boots if needed.

Obv he is on box rest atm so no rush, but what prep would I need to do to make sure the transistion is a good one when he finally is off box rest, bearing in mind I'll be doing more hacking and roadwork than arena work? His current diet is as follows: Alpha A oil, linseed, high fibre cubes, selenevite e, yea sacc , plus forage which at the moment is haylage (only do haylage on the yard).
Click to expand...

As already stated hooves grow in response to stimulation.

A shod horse will grow less hoof. There is less circulation and the metal means they don't get the signals to produce horn as rapidly.

When a bare hoof moves along the ground, the wear to the hoof signals to the horse to produce more horn. So the 'hoof making factory' goes into overdrive.

Be aware that shod hooves tend to be longer than barefoot - so it's likely your horse is trying hard to get rid of wall at the moment....rather than grow it.

A horse on boxrest will go into 'stasis' as far as growth and remodeling goes. You can't go from this

skinnyman.jpg


to this

arnold-schwarzenegger-roids2.jpg


while on bed rest. S

Same applies to hooves. They are like muscles and need to 'work out' to become strong.

I would be very cautious of ulcers in an ex racer. I'm glad you have ruled them out - but be aware that any gut insufficiency will have an effect on the hooves and the quality of horn they produce.

If your horse is unable to maintain his weight on ad-lib forage while on box rest - I would be worried about ulcers.....
 
leflynn said:
Ned2 - very new to us and belongs to my OH, but I help out as he works away sometimes. He is a 6yo chunky cob who is currently barefoot but our yard vet suggested shoeing him as during the vetting he would throw a lame stride when he went over stones and wasn't on a flat surface (sadly I wasn't there to see but have no reason to doubt our vet). Again he has good shaped feet and seem to be strong enough, sadly no idea of growth as only had him a week and a half. The soles do seem a bit soft/crumbly when picking them out esp compared to my TB who has hard soles. He is turned out 24/7 atm and only gets a handful of high fibre cubes if he does any work as a thank you. When he comes in he'll just be in on an evening and will get haylage (trickle netted) and no hard feed probably. He is in work 4-6 days a week, schooling/hacking/roadwork. As far as I know he hasn't ever been given a hard feed (his reaction is a giveaway too!)

Yard vet does support barefoot horses as there are many on our yard! Not sure whether to go against and try an alternative diet (would be difficult to swap away from haylage) or go for boots when out and about?

Any suggestions for either one would be welcome, thank you in advance lovely taliban :D
Click to expand...

Get some boots on him and (if they make him comfortable enough) work him like a dog.

I would start Pro Balance + to provide extra copper and zinc to try and regulate insulin control better.
 
Brill, thank you again :) I have a lot of reading to do and some tweaks to make ;)

Ned1 will keep weight on with adlib forage on box rest, but I need to feed him while on box rest otherwise he tries to take chunks out of his stable mate while they get fed and I try to muck him out (he is normally more sane off box rest), plus I can get supplements and calmer into him! I have had to be careful about balancing his feed intake v boredom/cribbing levels v energy for the last few months or he'd be a bit too fat right now... He is also fed yea-sacc (forgot to add that in) for his tummy as another preventative.

Farrier out tomorrow so will ask for advice re trimming Ned2 and also get him measured up for a set of boots if he is trimmed tomorrow.
I appreciate our vet was seeing the horse on that day having never seen him before and made a judgement. Ned2 has been without shoes for 2 years so massively reluctant to put them on now...
 
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Ok my thoughts. Agree box rest not good for hooves. Its a rare vet that is brill at spotting thrush other than the gagging kind. Alfalfa not food of choice. Haylage typically already low in sugar as its a fermented product. Its the fermentation that's the problem depending how well made. Caecuem (sp) needs to be pH 7 and haylage typically more acidic than that leading to range of problems depending on batch quality and horse. Think mild footiness to longer term hind gut ulcers. If high pH say close to 7 plus robust horse you can have no trouble. But if you are stuck with lower pH and a sensitive horse it can be a real problem. Mine can't eat even a handful of the top quality bagged and branded stuff. Re photos. Sort thrush and you are likely that with a skilled ie sympathetic HCP the heels will correct themselves. But not always.
 
Bit of an update:

Ned 2 (the original barefoot) is still barefoot and hooves in good nick - it seemed to be the weather playing havoc and a bit of dietary tweaking (soaking haylage) seemed to do the trick :)

ned 1 is finally back in work and has naked feet too, he is footy as his feet aren't as hard as I'd like with all the rest he's had but we have a pair of boots to help us along with that that he seems to like wearing, so it's all good so far....

Thanks for the help previously :D
 
leflynn said:
Bit of an update:

Ned 2 (the original barefoot) is still barefoot and hooves in good nick - it seemed to be the weather playing havoc and a bit of dietary tweaking (soaking haylage) seemed to do the trick :)

ned 1 is finally back in work and has naked feet too, he is footy as his feet aren't as hard as I'd like with all the rest he's had but we have a pair of boots to help us along with that that he seems to like wearing, so it's all good so far....

Thanks for the help previously :D
Click to expand...

Great News! :) Worth the patience :)
 
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