2 or 5 stage vetting

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Girlie1998

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Hi I'm looking to buy a new horse should I get 2 or 5 stage vetting? Its not a competition horse and would mainly be for hacking. The mare is perfect in every way the only thing is she shakes her head when ridden which makes me think it could be something more serious or she may be in pain rather than a vice. Thanks
 
It depends what you mean by pass though - every vetting will pick up certain issues (it's a bit like having a house survey and can be equally depressing reading). It's then up to you to decide whether those possible issues are a deal breaker. Both my latest purchases had 5 stage vettings, one died from sarcoids, and the other has been diagnosed with kissing spine neither of which showed up at a vetting.....At least with a 5 stage you are as informed as possible (on the day of the vetting anyway).
 
vettings are rarely black and white/ pass or fail, the vet will give you a list of observations and you can discuss with them which (if any) will effect the horse for the use you have for her.
It is true that rarely do vettings find nothing - equally there are lots of horses sold every day after a vetting. If you decide to buy you at least have full knowledge (and can take steps to manage) any condition identified.
 
hmmmm I have a different opinion on that.

I don't ever have horses vetted. I do a thorough physical exam myself, including trotting up, flexion tests on all four legs and all joints, heart and lungs, check for sarcoids etc, the only thing i can't do is the eye test, and I've never known a horse to have an eye problem. I know they exist, obviously, but I've personally never known one. When I last bought a horse, the owner said i did a more thorough exam than most vets she knew anyway lol.

A vet can only tell you what they see on the day. And if they see, say, a splint on a foreleg, then an insurance company might easily not insure that leg (for anything).

And if there is anything the vet hasn't spotted, you have a heck of a job trying to say that they should have seen it.

Mind you, I would pass on buying a head-shaker unless EVERYTHING else was PERFECT and also it wasn't much money. It can be a real problem, especially in the summer.
 
langtonhighway said:
hmmmm I have a different opinion on that.

I don't ever have horses vetted. I do a thorough physical exam myself, including trotting up, flexion tests on all four legs and all joints, heart and lungs, check for sarcoids etc, the only thing i can't do is the eye test, and I've never known a horse to have an eye problem. I know they exist, obviously, but I've personally never known one. When I last bought a horse, the owner said i did a more thorough exam than most vets she knew anyway lol.
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Wow - impressive. How do insurance companies accept your 'vettings'? Mine certainly wouldn't insure my horse without a 5 stage vetting by a vet :rolleyes:

OP - depends on the money and what you want to do with said horse; if you want to insure, how much for etc. etc.

As to horses not 'passing' a 5 stage vetting - mine did as was perfect on the day as were many many others that have been bought and sold.
 
5 stage every time - even if you really know your stuff you cant do the blood test which will show up any doping issues etc. also essential if you want to insure above £3k plus I thought...
 
Nicnac said:
Wow - impressive. How do insurance companies accept your 'vettings'? Mine certainly wouldn't insure my horse without a 5 stage vetting by a vet :rolleyes:
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Really?

I've insured both our ponies with various insurance companies over the years we had them, and none of them ever bothered that they hadn't been vetted. To be honest we have had more issues with the insurance companies excluding points flagged up on vettings, to the extent that I would definately go for a two stage vetting for any horse that is not expensive and not destined to compete at an affiliated level. I just want to know that the legs, heart and eyes are sound. I really don't care too much about flexion tests and blood tests.
 
I think it depends on how much you insure them for, depending on the company if you insure for over £3k or £5k they will ask for a recent vets cert. Under that value you're usually fine.
 
I had my last boy 5* vetted, not even a scratch on him.

So when 3 weeks later he broke his stifle and needed surgery, they had to pay out.

My new horse has also been 5* vetted, he passed with flying colours but if he did fail on something it gives you the option to decide if you are happy with dealing with a horse with whatever it failed on.
 
When I bought my yearling I requested a 2 stage vetting as she obviously couldn't be ridden etc. 3 vets said they would only do a 5 stage, they didn't offer 2 stage. I asked how they intended to do all aspects of a 5 stage on a yearling and they simply said they would do what they could e.g a 2 stage but charge me for 5 stage. Eventually found a vet to do it but I had to sign a disclaimer. So what I'm trying to say is you may not have a choice, your local vets may only do 5 stage. If a horse is rideable and you wanted a vetting I would definitely opt for 5 stage as 2 stage is very basic but I did have to send a copy of vetting certificate to insurance company.
 
I would be concerned with the head shaking as they may be selling the horse this time of year when the pollen counts are low and come the summer you may have a horse that you are unable to ride for several months and as you mostly want to hack this could prove very disappointing to you.
 
Honey08 said:
Really?

I've insured both our ponies with various insurance companies over the years we had them, and none of them ever bothered that they hadn't been vetted. To be honest we have had more issues with the insurance companies excluding points flagged up on vettings, to the extent that I would definately go for a two stage vetting for any horse that is not expensive and not destined to compete at an affiliated level. I just want to know that the legs, heart and eyes are sound. I really don't care too much about flexion tests and blood tests.
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My comment was aimed at poster who isn't a vet who is able to 'vet' her own purchases including lung and heart tests.

FWIW - agree if horse isn't expensive and not aimed at competition wouldn't both as per my answer.
 
I had our pony 2* vetted. He's a sj'er and our insurance company insisted on a 2*.

It showed up an old splint which we had found anyway but insurance company has still covered it.
 
Thank you so much for replies. I think 5 stage is the way forward. I'm a bit concerned with a few comments regarding head shaking. The owner was trying to make out this was just a habit the mare has picked up. She only does it when ridden but she doesn't take the bit either you have to put your finger in to get her to open her mouth which makes me think something is causing pain. According to the owner he has had the mares teeth and back checked.
 
For a ridden horse, I'd have a 5 stage. A lame/injured horse costs as much to keep as a healthy one.

Regarding the head shaking, it may be due allergy but without seeing the horse or knowing its pattern of behaviour, its difficult to say.
It might be the horse unhappy about taking a contact when ridden for a legitimate reason. It may object the its bit, how its fitted or sharp teeth, sore mouth or perhaps wolf teeth were not removed and they are in the way of the bit.

I had a horse that started head shaking one spring. It was a new area we'd moved to and it was very warm, wet and breezy. We moved again after 3 months and the problem disappeared completely.

Ask if you can speak to the horses vet about its history and have the vet you use for the pre- purchase exam examine it thoroughly too.

Fortunately, I haven't had a horse I was buying fail a vetting, so don't accept a seller telling you horses don't generally pass them. Some will fail unexpectedly, but if you don't expect the horse to be vetted as suitable for your purpose, even paying for a 2 stage would be a waste of money.
 
Just seen a horse recently with a friend who wants a project to bring on, possibly keep. The horse was beside herself in the arena, head tossing and unwilling to take a contact. She was better hacking. Vet (in 5 stage vetting) was v concerned about head shaking, and highlighted it. Friend has decided to walk away from this sale, difficult because she is a lovely mare. Having worked with several, I would never knowingly buy a head shaker . Sorry to be doom and gloom ....
 
Thanks horserider, great advice very much appreciated. I will speak to my vet tomorrow and organise 5 stage vetting.

I feel like they are trying to put me off getting her vetted which is making more suspicious. Fingers crossed all goes well.
 
Nicnac said:
My comment was aimed at poster who isn't a vet who is able to 'vet' her own purchases including lung and heart tests.
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:confused: I don't really understand your comments. I do fairly indepth checks on all of my purchases myself too. Just as I check the vitals on my own horses. It's not exactly rocket-science checking lungs and hearts.
 
Girlie1998 said:
Thanks, I have been told that most horses don't pass 5 stage but I suppose it depends on the reasons they have failed.
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I would go for a 5 stage. My mare passed hers, but they made comments in general about her being slightly toe in on one front foot, and plaiting outwards behind. The only other thing they picked up on was that she had a bruise on one sole, but was fully sound. Flexion tests passed etc too.

Depends on how much you are paying for her I suppose too. If you want to insure her for over a certain amount, then you will have to have a 5 stage certificate (not sure what the amount is now, but I think it's pretty high).
 
kirstyl said:
Just seen a horse recently with a friend who wants a project to bring on, possibly keep. The horse was beside herself in the arena, head tossing and unwilling to take a contact. She was better hacking. Vet (in 5 stage vetting) was v concerned about head shaking, and highlighted it. Friend has decided to walk away from this sale, difficult because she is a lovely mare. Having worked with several, I would never knowingly buy a head shaker . Sorry to be doom and gloom ....
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Thanks Kirsty, I really don't know what to do. I'l see what happens after the vetting.
 
Depends. I had a 2stage for my boy because he was cheap, an ex racer, he's going to have a few scars and scrapes. I didn't want him to be failed for something that would never affect him! I had three horses fail five stars before him, one of which I know is now very successful, so I kind of thought **** it, 2 stage will do ;)

Mine is fully insured for everything the 2stage checked... To be honest, in my experience, the insurance companies will always squirm on the hook when asked to pay up, and our boy who had a passed a five stage had more holes in his insurance plan than our other who was never vetted.
 
Also, on head shaking. Could be something as simple as the saddle is pinching, or horse is unsettled by having a different rider, but I'm with the others, I wouldn't knowingly buy a headshaker, sorry :( And as it is often seasonal, so not always picked up on a vetting.
 
Spring Feather said:
:confused: I don't really understand your comments. I do fairly indepth checks on all of my purchases myself too. Just as I check the vitals on my own horses. It's not exactly rocket-science checking lungs and hearts.
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Really? I have nearly 15 years experience in carrying out 5 stage (stage NOT star btw ;) ) vettings and I still think that I always have more to learn about heart problems particularly. I did some CPD recently specifically about interpreting the findings of cardiac problems that show up at vettings and there were several well known horse vets (30+ years in the business) on the course with that were me keen to expand their knowledge. I would say that detecting and evaluating the significance of subtle murmurs or arrhythmias is pretty close to rocket science!

On another point the reason that a lot of vets won't do 2 stage vettings is that the company that insure us and provide professional indemnity cover don't feel that a 2 stage vetting is a thorough enough investigation and likely to leave problems undetected which may, in future, lead to litigation against vets. They'd rather that we didn't do any 2 stage vettings at all any more but will still provide cover if a disclaimer (as one previous poster mentioned) that they drew up has been signed by the purchaser.
 
Honey08 said:
Really?

I've insured both our ponies with various insurance companies over the years we had them, and none of them ever bothered that they hadn't been vetted. To be honest we have had more issues with the insurance companies excluding points flagged up on vettings, to the extent that I would definately go for a two stage vetting for any horse that is not expensive and not destined to compete at an affiliated level. I just want to know that the legs, heart and eyes are sound. I really don't care too much about flexion tests and blood tests.
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Yes, After taking out my current policy I had a certain amount of time to send them a copy of the 5 stage vetting certificate. This is only neccessary when insuring horses over a certain value.
 
I had a five stage vetting done for the first horse I found, vet stopped halfway and told me not to buy it..as a novice I wouldn't have spotted what he did so I was glad I forked out. Second horse, same vet, horse passed with flying colours. Vet then told me he'd heard on grapevine that first horse had previously failed a five stage vetting for same issues he'd found. I was disappointed at the time but led me to find my current horse who's great.
 
Girlie1998 said:
Thanks, I have been told that most horses don't pass 5 stage but I suppose it depends on the reasons they have failed.
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Horses no longer pass or fail a vetting. However it's a fallacy to think that most 'fail'..... What the vet is doing is assessing the health of the horse, and ensuring it is 'fit for purpose'

Personally I'd always go for a 5 stage, I simply don't have the expertise to do otherwise.
 
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