2012 Olympics: when the "master race" within UK equestrianism ate the seed corn

[Rachel Mawhood]

You know what, I was going to type out a massive long response addressing all your points but in the end I decided I would be wasting my time. [et seq]

This is stating the obvious but ... you and the others who dismiss what I say have just illustrated why the master race within the UK equestrian world get away with squandering your money and resources.

Next time the master race want to appropriate a piece of land for their personal glory, it might be moorland or park or protected species habitat that you love and want to conserve. Then we won't tell you to stop moaning, we'll say: why weren't you there for us in Greenwich, while there was still time to move the equestrian venue to Windsor, before £120 million of public money was spent and evaporated with the morning dew?

Destroyed rare habitat, site of nature conservation of metropolitan importance obliterated, mature trees damaged beyond recovery, every relevant law broken, public park used as a public "convenience" by those attending a ticket-only event, and no legacy for your sport. For some pretty tv pictures.

 

[tasel]

I think the Greenwich venue was great - and I also was one of those "not into it" before. I thought it could have been done elsewhere, but hey, I admit I was wrong. London had a hard act to follow: Beijing. In communist China, the work force costs peanuts. I think they tried estimating how much a similar event would have cost when staged elsewhere... and the truth is, you better not think about it.

I looked at some of the comments the OP has said before. Greenwich Park may be a UNESCO world heritage site, but it's not exactly Ankor Wat, is it? She comes across as one of those people who would rather see a listed but dilapidated building crumble to the ground (yeah, great way of preserving it!) than someone doing it up not exactly the way they would have done hundreds of years ago. Or maybe she's just one of those people who hates change and wants to be stuck in time. I'm pretty sure Greenwich Park wasn't always "Greenwich Park". Quick summary is - it was previously just another landscape that turned into an estate used for hunting, and before it was made available to the public, it was landscaped. Not too dissimilar to what has happened for the Olympics. Why didn't people stop them from "landscaping" it back then? There were Roman, etc. artifacts there even then, surely?

As to how much it cost... when you think about the fact that the opening ceremony alone - a 3-hour long spectacle - cost £27 million, then it brings into perspective the £120 million spent on staging the equestrian events (which is still less expensive than the £140 million penthouse at One Hyde Park). Truth is, EVERYTHING in the UK is massively expensive. I think the first estimate of being able to stage it for £6.2 millions was too optimistic.

I've been abroad for some of the days of the Olympics, and the images captured on screen were spellbinding - everyone agreed that the venue looked gorgeous. It was pretty much a free advertisement for London. I don't know how many millions get spent on advertising the country for tourism purpose, but the Olympics pretty much did that for future years.

 

[Rachel Mawhood]

Also what about the extra revenue and coverage bought to Greenwich. The place was buzzing, busy (in a good way) and I plan to go back. Surely that's a good thing, or do you not like visitors to Greenwich who support your local economy and business.

Do you read anything but Horse & Hound? The Olympics have been an absolute disaster for the local economy and business - takings down 50%-70% - and some will not survive because it happened during what is usually the height of the tourist season. The Old Royal Observatory's loss of visitor revenue will be in the millions. LOCOG used National Maritime Museum facilities without paying for them, while at the same preventing the NMM earning revenue with them.

The park is in better condition than it's ever been,

That is completely untrue.

What will you do in 12 months time, when the Olympics are a memory, and the park is still looking better than pre Olympics.

Repairing the acid grasslands will take a decade, not a year. It will be fifty years before the tree landscape has been restored.

Can't you just sit back and revel in how well we as a nation have done, and how fortunate Greenwich was to have played a major part in that success. I have even heard it said, that Greenwich was seen as the most desireable & stunning venue to be at.

Your sport cannot build on that profile. You don't have the money to do so. Greenwich was chosen for the tv pictures. The BEF said it would cost £6.2m to stage the Olympics there. In the event, it cost £120m, and there is no money left. There may have to be a Parliamentary enquiry into how £42m (budgeted) became £120m (actual spend) of public money.

 

[tasel]

This is stating the obvious but ... you and the others who dismiss what I say have just illustrated why the master race within the UK equestrian world get away with squandering your money and resources.

OK... what master race are you on about?!? I only do riding recreationally, but I guess if you do it professionally, it will be the same as in ALL THE OTHER PROFESSIONS out there, where people move up through contacts/family. Yes, in my job, I have seen people move up and overtake me, though they had less skills, and daddy put in a good word for them. It's bl**dy annoying, but unfortunately, that's how the world is. Not just the equestrian world. I mean, I'd do the same if I had kids, so I understand why other parents would. That's why it would be hypocritical for me to bemoan it too much. Is that what you are talking about?

Because otherwise, I don't know what master race you're talking about.

 

[stencilface]

I'm sorry, but the grass and trees argument just does not wash with me. Grass and trees were pretty successful at growing before, and surprisingly, with some rain and sun, life will continue just as it has always done.

Yes the park will not be restored in 5 years, or even 10, but is this such as disaster? Have you been to other areas of the country far more beautiful than greenwich where pylon way leaves and pipeline routes run? Yes there's disruption, but trust me on this, grass does grow back.

And don't quote natural England at me, they live on a different planet to the rest of us, and half of them don't know their arse from their elbow quite frankly.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

So you didn't manage to stop Greenwich being used, you're a sore loser.

Greenwich is not a museum, its a living breathing park for people to enjoy. Millions of people around the world benefited from it, it was one of the park's finest moments.
The legacy of the equestrain events is for all of us to be inspired with. Just last night I met a group of very non horsey engineers who were fascinated by 'dancing horses' and I have already introduced a couple of young canoe coaches to riding because of what they saw at the games. Hardly elitist.

Now go away and find another cause to annoy someone with. Street lighting, refuse collections....

 

[tasel]

To obtain permission for planning permission to build something equestrian on Metropolitan Open Land at the Shooter's Hill, LOCOG and the Council lied, claiming that there were no other riding schools in Greenwich. The fact is that there are already three riding schools in Greenwich.

Ehm... which riding schools are you talking about??? I lived in London a few years back and I found the nearest riding school to have crap facilities (i.e. no paddocks, horses were turned out in school when not in use, school itself was tiny). Although geographically, it wasn't that far (a few miles), it took me an hour to get there due to London traffic. I'm now outside of London, it takes me 8 minutes to get to my horse, covering the same distance. This alone warrants riding schools in not too great distance apart in London. If you're talking about Mudchute... that's still a long distance away.

If they can create one nice proper riding school, then great!

 

[tasel]

Re the budget, I doubt there has been an Olympics on recent memory that came in anywhere near the estimate, unfortunately. It seems to be the nature of the beast. It took Montreal 27 years to pay off '76, although that admittedly was before the modern revenue production organisation. And thee doesn't seem to be much doubt Athens contributed to Greece's problems.

They seem to be a bit like Grand Designs - think of a number, then triple it.

I love that Grand Designs quote!!!

 

[Spudlet]

The time to object about the Olympics was when the bid was being formulated - not now, after it's all over. It's over for goodness sake! Now rather than whining here, why don't you put your considerable, if negative, energy into something constructive for the community you claim to care about (even if you do clearly hold some of it in contempt)?

 

[Orangehorse]

The Park will recover. We held a big event on our clay land in one wet summer and with the cars and marquee, etc. the field was completely trashed. 12 months later you couldn't see where it had been. Old turf is very resiliant.

Watching the event on TV - it was great - I did think that it was a good thing it wasn't wet with all those people walking around.

As for the money - well it has happened now and it would have cost a lot to stage where ever it had been held. There would have been the arena, practice facilities, stabling, security, preparation of the cross country course.

There is a "legacy" organisation, a lady spoke at a BHS conference, something to do with "hoof"???????????????? I think she was disappointed that most of us said we hadn't heard about it, although I have seen one or two articles in various magazines.
We DO know about the Ebony Club though so their marketing is obviously more successful.

 

[Rachel Mawhood]

cost £27 million, then it brings into perspective the £120 million spent on staging the equestrian events (which is still less expensive than the £140 million penthouse at One Hyde Park).

Er, if you spend £140 million on a penthouse at One Hyde Park, you actually own a £140 million penthouse. Not only the memory and pictures of a £140 million penthouse.

I think the first estimate of being able to stage it for £6.2 millions was too optimistic.

Wouldn't you like to take this up with the BEF? To find out why they misled everyone?

I'll come back later with something on the history of Greenwich Park. It was, and will be restored again as - God willing - the finest Baroque (a 17th dreamscape) landscape in England.

 

[Rachel Mawhood]

something constructive for the community you claim to care about

It was I who blew the whistle on LOCOG's plans to steal mains water and electricity. I think that that was constructive for the community I care about.

 

[Rachel Mawhood]

The Park will recover. We held a big event on our clay land in one wet summer and with the cars and marquee, etc. the field was completely trashed. 12 months later you couldn't see where it had been. Old turf is very resiliant.

I realise that it is not comfortable for you to acknowledge this but Greenwich Royal Park is a fragile, biodiverse Grade I Listed Baroque English landscape containing rare habitats and internationally protected species. Not a field of clay.

As for the money - well it has happened now and it would have cost a lot to stage where ever it had been held. There would have been the arena, practice facilities, stabling, security, preparation of the cross country course.

If the Olympics equestrian venue had been elsewhere, you could have built a brand-new, state-of-the-art equestrian centre for less than £42 million. And at the end of the Olympics, you would still have had a new equestrian centre, not just fading memories.

There is a "legacy" organisation, a lady spoke at a BHS conference, something to do with "hoof"???????????????? I think she was disappointed that most of us said we hadn't heard about it, although I have seen one or two articles in various magazines.

Yes, it is hilarious that after all this time and money Hoof has practically nil brand recognition.

We DO know about the Ebony Club though so their marketing is obviously more successful.

There are party political reasons why Ebony is better known.

 

[SpottedCat]

If the Olympics equestrian venue had been elsewhere, you could have built a brand-new, state-of-the-art equestrian centre for less than £42 million. And at the end of the Olympics, you would still have had a new equestrian centre, not just fading memories.

Given the number of equestrian centres on the market, and the fact that Stoneleigh was unviable (in terms of being a long term national centre), I presume that with all your anti-Greenwich sentiment you put your talents to good use and provided LOCOG and the BEF with a fully costed business plan for such a legacy development, showing how it would be sustained in perpetuity, and which also convinced the IOC to allow equestrian sports to remain in the Olympics if they were held outside of London? You seem extremely convinced that this is all possible, so it would be lovely to see the evidence which I am sure you gathered and put to them for this type of equestrian centre

 

[chestnut cob]

You miserable cow. Why not take a look at the bigger picture. If you can't see it then you may need glasses.

*splutter* ROFLMAO!!

FWIW I agree. I was one of those critics, really wasn't convinced Greenwich was the place to hold the equestrian events. I felt they should have created a permanent facility somewhere like Stoneleigh Park. I have Para DR tickets so will get to see the Greenwich facilities first hand but from what I've seen on TV, I was blown away. It looks superb and I am now 100% convinced.

Don't underestimate the feel good factor. I wasn't convinced about London 2012 as a whole but I think it was a resounding success in the end. Everything seemed to run smoothly, the facilities looked amazing and I hope it does inspire a new generation to get involved in sport.

As for the park, grass grows. A few horses running XC across it for a couple of days doesn't preclude that. It will grow back. And I'm a bit environmentalist!

 

[Mithras]

Er, if you spend £140 million on a penthouse at One Hyde Park, you actually own a £140 million penthouse. Not only the memory and pictures of a £140 million penthouse.

Wouldn't you like to take this up with the BEF? To find out why they misled everyone?

I'll come back later with something on the history of Greenwich Park. It was, and will be restored again as - God willing - the finest Baroque (a 17th dreamscape) landscape in England.

I'm sure that people are capable of finding out plenty about Greenwich Park's history themselves. Perhaps you however should do a little research into the pre-17th Century history of the area, and the purposes for which it has been used?

The thing is OP, with your aggressive posting style, your constant belittling and patronising of anyone who has the temerity to hold an alternative view ("you're not paying attention" you constantly wail), and your history of lack of actual achievement, you depict a world so depressing that I and many others simply wouldn't wish to inhabit it. Your post title is extremely disturbing, but nevertheless prescient, in that your attitude seems dictatorial.

I am always surprised that you never fail to recgonise the irony in your constant labelling of equestrian, rural sports as elitist, when you yourself own a property in an area of the country so expensive it is out of reach for many of those you criticise for being elitist.

I think your arguement would be improved if you actually set out, in clear terms, what it is you are trying to achieve, and how likely you are to do so. At the moment, all you seem likely to achieve, in practical terms, is a waste of taxpayer's money in dealing with your narcisstic obsessions. Speaking of which, just how is your judicial review application going? Have you actually started it yet? Perhaps you could provide a link to an independent source of information as to its progress? Rather than simply accusing a bunch of somewhat bewildered people of all sorts of unlikely things.

 

[imr]

I can accept that OP is of the view the park should not have been used. I disagree fwiw - I think a legacy facility would likely be a white elephant, and using greenwich resulted in a games where the horses were not marooned miles out of central london, and the grass will re-grow !!!!
However, what I cannot deal with is the conspiracy theory type lunacy talking of "master races" etc. OP - If you want to make a serious point then go ahead, but you aren't doing yourself any favours by implying without any supporting evidence there is some sort of secret network of special people who are having a laugh at everyone else's expense and have derived some sort of personal special benefits from using greenwich as this reads like the unsubstantiated ramblings of a lunatic.
Also, its a bit late now given the olympics have happened, so maybe time to move on and think about something else....

 

[Trolt]

I am looking at the bigger picture - the one in which UK equestrianism threw away a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to have its national facilities upgraded at no cost to the sport - and, as the UK's opponents in other countries are already using their upgraded facilities, UK equestrianism is likely to weaken over the coming decade.

We managed to get two Team Golds, a team silver, individual gold and an individual bronze in the equestrian events (or where you refusing to watch ) I'd say that those results suggest that equestrianism has managed pretty well without national facilities being upgraded. In actual fact, our equestrian results (dressage and show jumping) are the first time in years we have taken medals. So we've improved significantly without the national facilities you keep wittering on it about it, whilst other countries with these national facilities have still not been able to achieve as much as we did. I think that makes the national facility a moot point.

: why weren't you there for us in Greenwich, while there was still time to move the equestrian venue to Windsor, before £120 million of public money was spent and evaporated with the morning dew?

Destroyed rare habitat, site of nature conservation of metropolitan importance obliterated, mature trees damaged beyond recovery, every relevant law broken, public park used as a public "convenience" by those attending a ticket-only event, and no legacy for your sport. For some pretty tv pictures.

Now I understand that Greenwich is listed, so I understand you are slightly more concerned about it for this reason. I also understand that the games makers had to be very careful about work done on the course to make sure the protected trees were not damaged, they couldn't build ditches etc due to the protection. So they would have had more freedom somewhere like Windsor.

However, surely Windsor has many different habitats, mature trees, sites of conservation (birds and deer). Windsor is not a "public park" but a home. Yet, you seem perfectly happy to suggest someone's home is opened up and "obliterated...damaged beyond recovery".

You describe Greenwich as a "public park" ... surely then, it is fitting that such a fantastic public event was held in a public park, aiding in the removal of the elitist and private stereotype equestrianism faces.

 

[millimoo]

Do you read anything but Horse & Hound? The Olympics have been an absolute disaster for the local economy and business - takings down 50%-70% - and some will not survive because it happened during what is usually the height of the tourist season. The Old Royal Observatory's loss of visitor revenue will be in the millions. LOCOG used National Maritime Museum facilities without paying for them, while at the same preventing the NMM earning revenue with them.

Err?? Yes actually... and trust me, I can make my own mind up, and not just what I read - unlike you, who can only align to anything that suits your vendetta.
Regards takings, well every hotel was full. Every B&B in Greenwich agreed across the board to charge £200 per night, minimum 7 night stay, homes were made available in Greenwich for rent at extortionate rates - so sorry, but some people have done very well out of the Olympics. This is all 100% factual.
As for the Old Royal Observatory & the National Martime Museum, then yes, in the run up to, and during the Olympics I agree they will have lost revenue.
However I truly believe this will reverse ten fold in the amount of increased visitor numbers post Olympics.
Greenwich has firmly been put on the map, and I know loads of people who always perceived it was off the beaten track, but many want to go back and enjoy what Greenwich has to offer.
Every bar, and restuarant I passed were full, and shops were capitalising on the days there were competitions, either through increased foot fall, or selling GB memorabilia.

That is completely untrue.

Thats only your sentiment..... get over it, because there are far more who will disagree with you

Repairing the acid grasslands will take a decade, not a year. It will be fifty years before the tree landscape has been restored.

Rubbish... Greenwich in it's very nature is a managed landscape. The Olympics forms one part of its artificial journey. Come back in 5 years and prove it to us..... also remember, the park has been closed off, so hsn't had the regular foot fall from ramblers etc, so this will offset the Cross Country use

Your sport cannot build on that profile. You don't have the money to do so. Greenwich was chosen for the tv pictures. The BEF said it would cost £6.2m to stage the Olympics there. In the event, it cost £120m, and there is no money left. There may have to be a Parliamentary enquiry into how £42m (budgeted) became £120m (actual spend) of public money.

The Event was NOT chosen for TV pictures alone. It was also because it was in London.
As for the overspend, well the Government had an unexpected cost of £400m alone to pay for a specialist firm to manage the costs and ensure they didn't overspend, so £120m to host the equestrian Events is a mere snip in the grand scheme of things.
Regards the underforecast, the same could be said about the whole of the Olympics not just specifically Greenwich - I am a Senior Project Manager, and the devil is in the detail, and the initial bid 7 years ago was a High level estimate. As you start to design detailed solutions for any requirements to support the Olympic bid, then of course there are going to be unforeseen costs.
Rightly, additional (and no doubt very unforeseen) costs will have come about at the Greenwich site specifically to protect and preserve the landscape. Trust me, I work with many Marketeers, and Product Owners in my proffession who have a very rose tinted glow on what they want to acheive, with an unrealistic budget. You will always find that when said detail is investigated and understood, further costs and additional needs will usually fall out.
In the case of the Olympics, there is not really an option to de-scope specifics to save on costs, as a committment has been made to the IOC, plus hidden/unknown location specific costs will also have to be met.

I really do think you should go away for 5 years, find another cause to channel you efforts, and maybe revisit the Greenwich park debate when you can provide Factual evidence of your bigoted sweeping statements.

And as for the legacy, who do you expect to fund a brand new Equestrian Facility, in a time of recession, when large established venues are for sale, or have the Receivers in.

 

[chestnut cob]

I also wonder... what is actually the point of complaining about this now? The Olympics is over (time to get excited about the Paralympics now!), what difference does it make?!?

 

[SusannaF]

As to the "Master Race" comment –

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

I'm sitting a short distance from memorials to the Nazis' victims. The use of a park for a temporary equestrian spectacle does not compare...

 

[Elsiecat]

I also wonder... what is actually the point of complaining about this now? The Olympics is over (time to get excited about the Paralympics now!), what difference does it make?!?

^this.

Lighten up.

 

[RutlandH2O]

Point well taken and beautifully expressed!

 

[tasel]

Er, if you spend £140 million on a penthouse at One Hyde Park, you actually own a £140 million penthouse. Not only the memory and pictures of a £140 million penthouse.

Er, no. No penthouse should be worth that much - you don't really own the ground you're on... just the air above it. A few people just get paid too much and don't know what to do with their money

Wouldn't you like to take this up with the BEF? To find out why they misled everyone?

I'll come back later with something on the history of Greenwich Park. It was, and will be restored again as - God willing - the finest Baroque (a 17th dreamscape) landscape in England.

Maybe because BEF has never staged an event of this magnitude before? They just massively underestimated that. I don't think most equestrian events staged in the UK had to deal with the amount of people/horses/riders. Most people coming to the regular events are really into the sport, while for the Olympics, there would have been people that probably never watched an equestrian event before. I also guess there was a discrepancy in what the BEF envisioned and the large-scale event LOCOG wanted.

In any case, I don't really care much about the "baroque features" of Greenwich Park. The last time I was there, it looked just like any other park with trees and the dry grass in the summer. I wished it always had the green grass it had during the Olympics. It's only the buildings that set it apart. I understand the value of preserving old things, but truth is times change, places change... and I think you have to live with that. If that wasn't the case, life would be boring.

I think you also mentioned that the hard ground or something was to blame for the Brits not winning gold. Eventing is not just cross country. It has dressage and show jumping, too. The "hard ground" isn't to blame for the Germans winning.

 

[tasel]

Er, if you spend £140 million on a penthouse at One Hyde Park, you actually own a £140 million penthouse. Not only the memory and pictures of a £140 million penthouse.

Er, no. No penthouse should be worth that much - you don't really own the ground you're on... just the air above it. A few people just get paid too much and don't know what to do with their money

Wouldn't you like to take this up with the BEF? To find out why they misled everyone?

I'll come back later with something on the history of Greenwich Park. It was, and will be restored again as - God willing - the finest Baroque (a 17th dreamscape) landscape in England.

Maybe because BEF has never staged an event of this magnitude before? They just massively underestimated that. I don't think most equestrian events staged in the UK had to deal with the amount of people/horses/riders. Most people coming to the regular events are really into the sport, while for the Olympics, there would have been people that probably never watched an equestrian event before. I also guess there was a discrepancy in what the BEF envisioned and the large-scale event LOCOG wanted.

In any case, I don't really care much about the "baroque features" of Greenwich Park. The last time I was there, it looked just like any other park with trees and the dry grass in the summer. I wished it always had the green grass it had during the Olympics. It's only the buildings that set it apart. I understand the value of preserving old things, but truth is times change, places change... and I think you have to live with that. If that wasn't the case, life would be boring.

I think you also mentioned that the hard ground or something was to blame for the Brits not winning gold. Eventing is not just cross country. It has dressage and show jumping, too. The "hard ground" isn't to blame for the Germans winning.

 

[Fools Motto]

I'd like to see some photos of the 'damage' the Olympics has done to Greenwich. For the life of me I can't quite get to grips with 'it will take fifty years to recover'.

Anyway, I'll let you go off and stamp your feet in frustration that we don't agree with a word you are saying. We all enjoyed it, it was and will remain a brilliant place.

 

[PolarSkye]

Know what Rachel? You keep saying that people aren't paying attention . . . and you're absolutely right, they're not - and that isn't because you don't have a small smidgen of a point (actually you do), it's because your method of putting that point across - haranguing, belittling, being more than a little ranty and shouty - negates any sense you may be making.

Try dropping downright offensive phrases like "master race" and dismissive language like "your lot" and you get people to listen and respond to WHAT you're saying rather than how you're saying it.

That said, I still struggle to understand the point of your original post. It may, or may not, have been folly to hold the equestrian elements of the overall Olympic competition at Greenwich . . . funds, may or may not, have been mishandled and rules may, or may not, have been ridden over roughshod . . . but it's all a bit academic now isn't it? Is there a call to action in your rather ranty post . . . or did you just need to vent? If the latter, then choosing to do so on this forum might have been counterproductive.

P

 

[teapot]

I'd like to see some photos of the 'damage' the Olympics has done to Greenwich. For the life of me I can't quite get to grips with 'it will take fifty years to recover'.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/save_greenwich_park/sets/72157629397205479/?page=8 it really isn't that bad and it is recoverable damage.


I bet the park itself is enjoying not having dogs pee and poo all over it which does damage to grass too As for the NMM, the only revenue they get is from their shop and over priced cafe, the museum itself is free...

 

[Spudlet]

Part of the park was turned into allotments during the Second World War, arguably doing much more damage than a bit of browned grass, yet it does seem to have recovered. That's before we even get onto the subject of bombs. Yet it does seem to have come back right again.

 

[lazybee]

Oh no the master race have come along with their slash and burn policy on the last bit of pristine virgin rain forest in Europe. What will happen to the poor orphaned Orangutan.........................Get it into context please

This is just a public park.