3rd saddle fit attempt, black country gp

[Jxmxg]

I bought this saddle 2nd hand in excellent condition. Its a 17" seat, black country saddle, measures 8 1/2 inch D-D (does anyone know how I can look up what the actual tree size is? Medium, medium wide maybe? Here is the link to what saddle it is

http://www.blackcountrysaddles.com/product/classic/

Im uploading some pics of it on my 5yr old welsh D gelding. He needs to gain muscle and he is quite croup high right now so maybe he will grow and fill out more yet..? Anyway, what do you all think of this saddle fit? Also I'm also concerned how long the flaps are. I'm only a little over five feet tall but my feet would still touch the horse. Would it look silly to ride him in this type of saddle? Does it look to long on him? Enough wither clearence? Previous owner said he is a medium tree but obviously depends on type of saddle. He is not trained yet. I do plan to get a fitter out once he is going well undersaddle and has gained muscle and done growing /maturing but obviously want to make sure he is comfortable in the meantime. X

 

[Equi]

Literally noone can tell you this. You need a saddle fitter in person to fit a saddle, who can see how it is on the horse and how it fits the rider and also suits what you plan to do. The saddle in the link looks very show saddle, so honestly i don't think it would be very easy to ride every day in for a new break.

 

[Jxmxg]

Won't upload the pictures for some reason! Says they are to large but I even croped them. Will try again tomorrow.

Merry Equimas- I'm not gonna use it just based on people's opinions, I just wanted to get everyone's opinion on how the fit looks from the pictures (that I can't even upload! lol). I don't think it would be hard to ride everyday in it as it seems comfy and gives good contact to the horse. I've ridden bareback, English and Western, trained horses and ponies before etc... As long as it fits us both and is comfy not sure how it wouldn't be good to ride in each day and not just for shows..?

 

[SpotsandBays]

D-D measurements are inaccurate as d rings are positioned differently on different saddles. If it has a serial number on the saddle you could ring the company/makers of the saddle who might be able to help regarding the size? (Not sure though!). Definitely get a (good) fitter to check it. It’s not expensive for peace of mind that the saddle fits and won’t cause any issues.

 

[Dasher66]

Rosietaz is right, call Black Country saddles with the serial number and they will tell you the size, width, age, and colour.
When I called before Christmas they also knew that my saddle was made to a template for the horse.
Of course it’s possible it may have been altered since.

 

[sbloom]

Contact Black Country with the ID or work with a fitter, no other choice. D to d should never be used, really. Flap length will matter at medium to upper levels of showing which i presume is what you're doing? You should ideally have at least half your lower leg off the flap, but actually how well the tree and panel fits the horse influences how close your leg feels much more than people realise. As well as the fit for you, where the bars are in relation to the deepest part of the seat etc.

That is a super flat tree, is your horse super flat int he back, no wither? If so, from my nearly 12 years fitting wider horses, M or even MW is pretty narrow for that sort of tree, especially if the horse traces as a medium I would be looking g to fit wider and pad up. Fitting narrower may sit into a ny lack of muscle and is may risk bridging if the horse has any shape in its back, fitting wider and shimming means you can take the shims back under the middle of the saddle and compensate for a more shapely back.

 

[Jxmxg]

I wil try to find the I'd number on the saddle, so far I just see it says classic on it, spring tree and 17 and black country... No other stamps on it that I can see. I also thought thebd to d ring measurements were not correct to tell tree width but seems everyone goes by that measurement for some reason. I am going to attempt uploading saddle fit photos again soon with my laptop as they won't seem to work on my phone for some reason. Managed to upload a pic of my gelding though. He is 14.1hh (was told that was his height but will measure him to check). I'm planning on riding for fun at my livery yard, mostly flat untill he is almost 7yrs old and will probably do dressage later on and some jumping but don't have plans to show him anytime soon, if I do show it will be later on in life.
Does anyone know how this type of saddle should look on a horse regarding the length of flaps. They measure 17 1/2 inches. Can't seem to find a picture to compare. Sbloom, thanks for you input again. Going to try to upload pics now and look for a serial number or more id on saddle to find out the actual tree size.

 

[Littlewills]

If that pony is a medium I'll eat my hat! I'd also be very surprised if a flat tree will fit him. Hes got a wither, short back and he's croup high. You've spent a lot of money buying saddles that dont fit now, why not just get a fitter out and have a saddle fitted? Mine doesn't carry a lot of stock but can measure and tell me which tree etc I need then she will come back and fit it.

 

[TheMule]

This pony is going to be quite challenging to fit, I would get a saddler involved ASAP. Your idea of making do and building muscle is unlikely to work- you will get incorrect muscle building if the saddle doesn’t for properly and end up with problems

 

[honetpot]

I agree with forget the D rings.
If you can not find someone experience to help you. Get a wire coat hanger and a tape measure, I have a flexi tape, which holds its shape.
With the coat hanger, or a stiff piece of wire, make a template of you horses spine from the withers to where the saddle would end. Make this out on a large piece of paper. Then with pieces of tape marking sections on the wire on the horses, use another piece of wire to measure a template across, you need at least the highest point of the wither where a saddle could touch and behind the shoulder, and mark the shape on paper.
When you view a saddle take the paper and the wire, so you can work out roughly how wide the saddle is in relation to your horse, using the wire. Its a bit like children's shoes, a fitting measurement may not give you the completely the right fit, but it gives you a place to start, and if it's a second hand saddle the flocking will have moulded to the previous horse.
In my experience is wider is always better, I used to have a Korrector saddle pad, http://www.korrector.com/how-to-fit-korrector/ for a completely lob sided horse, the extra width gives more chance to adjust the fit, and allows for development.

Many years ago, my first saddle was hand made in a workshop, in the saddlers back garden, I could literally choose the leather I wanted it made from hung up in his workshop. At that that point he said he only had three widths of tree to work with, so the actual fit was all down to how he made it.

 

[Jxmxg]

Littlewills - yes that's true lol I have a saddle fitter not far from me but they will only fit and sell you their own brand new saddles which are over £1300, without the fit and travel fee. There's another place but got bad reviews but will fit 2nd hand saddles but only had three to choose from and with travel fee and fit would be around £200 and want £600-£800 for the used ones that are bates. Harry dabs and wintec so said I'd wait tl they have more in stock. I've bought an ideal gp saddle and a black country saddle at good prices to try on and take the risk of they don't fit I could re sell or keep for another horse later on. If I can find a local fitter than can just check fit or reccomended what saddle would work then I'd definitely do that. Running late today but should have saddle pics loaded by tonight. Will ask a few people at my yard who have experience with saddles to check it too.

 

[Jxmxg]

TheMule- I never said I was going to make do. In gonna find a saddle that fits him while Im starting him ubdersaddle and while he fills out and builds muscle then get a fitter to come when they can see him being ridden undersaddle also to make sure it's suited both him and me. If I was making do I wouldn't be trying different saddles on and getting other opinions online and in person. I understand its best get a fitter out and I'm still searching to get one. I don't want to spend thousands on a brand new saddle when he will most likely need another in a year due to growth and muscle devopment. If I am really having a hard time then I will definitely get one out earlier as I don't want to be riding or training him with something that isn't a perfect fit. He's only had three saddles tried on, not been sat on yet but I did out weight in the saddle to check it doesn't press on his withers and so on. Can't wait to get him backed and going undersaddle, his ground work and lunging is going well. I've only had him a little over a month, he was shown in hand before I got him.

 

[asmp]

We too have a Master Saddler who told us what saddle (models that were the right shape and correct size to fit us and the horse) to look out for when our youngster needed a saddle and then came to check the fit when we had sourced one. The first one was a cheap Thorogood and he soon changed shape and needed another style. He’s now on his third saddle.

Whereabouts are you in the country? Perhaps someone could suggest someone?

 

[Palindrome]

He looks very short backed to me. Depending on what seat size you need, perhaps a Thorowgood compact could suit.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I very much doubt that horse need a medium fit.

Perhaps someone could suggest someone?

Freedom Saddlery, as long as the OP has transport, it’ll be about an hour away. Only new saddles, mind, but Steph does stock cheaper brands too, such as Kent and Masters. Great trial facilities inc indoor school.

I do not recommend CS, which is closer to the OP, and may be the saddle fitter she refers to (sells new).

 

[Jxmxg]

Tiddlypom-yes you are right. That's one of the fitters I was referring too! I don't have transport but I'm sure I could pay someone to trailer him but would need to have him at least greenbroke undersaddle first if I was to ride him for proper fit. I need to find someone who can fit him not far from Wybunbury/Nantwich area of Cheshire but that has more saddle options to try. Still havnt got around to posting the black country gp pics but I'm putting my daughter to bed soon so will do that after. I was looking into the thorogood or Kent and Masters but the black country ones seem much better quality leather than the Kent and masters but obviously as long as it fits properly I don't mind a cheaper leather or synthetic as fit is more important than what's on the outside of the saddle (as long as the tree and everything else is good quality of course). Thank you for everyone's input so far

 

[conniegirl]

The classic is not a GP, it is very much a show saddle, not the best to be breaking young horses in unless you have an extremely stable lower leg

 

[Jxmxg]

Oh okay, I was told is was a Gp so figured it was meant for flatwork and some jumping with. Is that what it's used for at shows? I looked it up and saw it said show saddle after but figured it was a Gp show saddle. Like you can get a dressage show saddle, jumping etc... also can anyone find a picture of this addle on a horse or pony? X I've never shown before I just rode Western and English at my own farm in Canada and mostly bought horses from auctions and slaughter houses to save, train and get them healthy and fit up and find new homes for (we'll I ended up keeping allot as I got attached) lol I may take my gelding to shows eventually tho

 

[conniegirl]

Connie girl - I was told is was a Gp so figured it was meant for flatwork and some jumping with. Is that whays it's used for at shows? I looked it up and saw it said show saddle after but figured it was a Gp show saddle. Like you can get a dressage show saddle, jumping etc... X

it is a plain show saddle, used for flat showing classes. Jumping in show saddles is very difficult as is sitting to any antics a young pony may throw.
They offer almost no support for a rider at all.
You dont get GP show saddles, or drassage show saddles for that matter.
it is a show saddle for flat showing classes, working hunter saddle for workers classes, dressage saddle for dressage etc.
I have ridden almost exclusively in show saddles for over 25 years but i still bought a cheap dressage saddle to break my youngster in.

 

[conniegirl]

Pictures of the classic on a horse
http://www.blackcountrysaddles.com/...eign-supreme-at-north-of-england-spring-show/

http://www.blackcountrysaddles.com/news/championship-showing-success-for-cassie-hartley/

http://www.blackcountrysaddles.com/news/just-electric-thats-rupert-for-you/

The classic is very straight cut to show off the horses shoulder in the ring. It has a very shallow seat so it is low profile and it has almost no knee roll at all.

Excellent for showing off horses in the show ring, not so great for rider stickability.

i would also eat my hat if you welshie was a medium fit. Mine is an XW in black country saddles like the classic and hartley. Most will be at the very least a Wide.

 

[Pippity]

I need to find someone who can fit him not far from Wybunbury/Nantwich area of Cheshire but that has more saddle options to try.

I'm not that far from you and, off the top of my head, both Sally Cartwright and Emily Green carry a limited stock of second-hand saddles but will at least be able to tell you what is likely to fit and check it once you've sourced it second-hand. Sam Rhodes of Chunky Monkey also carries second-hand stock but only of her own saddles.

All three of those are used to fitting saddles to unbacked horses so will be able to assess your build and how it will impact the saddle, and how the horse is likely to change shape as it comes into work.

The simple fact is that most saddle-fitters don't carry a huge stock of second-hand saddles because it isn't profitable. You can keep on buying what seems to be a fairly random selection of saddles in the hope they'll fit, or you can get a professional to give you some guidance.

Unfortunately, having to constantly change saddles is one of the expected expenses of buying a youngster. Mine was rising six when I got her, and I still went through three saddles in a year.

 

[holeymoley]

Your guy looks very tricky to fit, even for someone that has the ‘eye’. He has a wither and is very short backed to accommodate a saddle. I’d highly suspect that he wouldn’t fit a medium tree either. As a youngster he will absolutely change over the next few years, maybe going through 2-3 saddles so I wouldn’t be buying brand new, something second hand in good condition until he’s matured a bit. Definitely one for a fitter.

 

[Jxmxg]

You guys are really helpful. Thanks for the pics of the saddle on a horse so I can see how long the flap is on leg lol and thanks for the saddle fitter names thay are not to far from me, will look them up.

 

[sbloom]

He is SUPER short, how tall is he? The Classic isn't going to be good, and as said, a show saddle absolutely isn't a GP, the only thing it might have in common is the location of the stirrup bars, in between that of jump and dressage. The tree will be much too flat, and there's no way he's a medium. Even some sellers of one brand will advise on what to look for second hand, I certainly do.

 

[Jxmxg]

I bought him a little over a month ago, was told he is 14.1hh. I am going to measure him later. I'm only a little over five feet tall so I won't really be that bothered if he is shorter than what I was told. I guess I'll sell the black country saddle and get ahold of the saddle fitters that have been suggested to me that hopefully are not that far away. Will keep everyone updated. I really appreciate everyone's input, thanks again x

 

[sbloom]

I bought him a little over a month ago, was told he is 14.1hh. I am going to measure him later. I'm only a little over five feet tall so I won't really be that bothered if he is shorter than what I was told. I guess I'll sell the black country saddle and get ahold of the saddle fitters that have been suggested to me that hopefully are not that far away. Will keep everyone updated. I really appreciate everyone's input, thanks again x

At 5' I would be very reluctant to put you in a 17" saddle, and on that back a 17" on a flat tree might be too long full stop, but will bridge like crazy. I would look at 16" if you're fairly slim of hip, a more forwards flap, ie the GP you're after, will be more forgiving too. With that curve in the back going for a 16", even if he has more space, makes life a lot easier as you can fit into the flatter part of the back. The longer you go the more you're looking at having to fit the curve, and curvy trees usually have the wrong rail shape on these shapes of backs. Curvy trees are for higher withers IMO and tend to have narrower upright rails which cause pressure and stability issues as well as flat panels with deep rear gussets to balance the high wither. Flatter tree with a curvy, short panel if necessary. I fit a lot of these shapes.

https://srt2018.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/SRT-18-10.pdf

 

[sbloom]

I agree with forget the D rings.
If you can not find someone experience to help you. Get a wire coat hanger and a tape measure, I have a flexi tape, which holds its shape.
With the coat hanger, or a stiff piece of wire, make a template of you horses spine from the withers to where the saddle would end. Make this out on a large piece of paper. Then with pieces of tape marking sections on the wire on the horses, use another piece of wire to measure a template across, you need at least the highest point of the wither where a saddle could touch and behind the shoulder, and mark the shape on paper.
When you view a saddle take the paper and the wire, so you can work out roughly how wide the saddle is in relation to your horse, using the wire. Its a bit like children's shoes, a fitting measurement may not give you the completely the right fit, but it gives you a place to start, and if it's a second hand saddle the flocking will have moulded to the previous horse.
In my experience is wider is always better, I used to have a Korrector saddle pad, http://www.korrector.com/how-to-fit-korrector/ for a completely lob sided horse, the extra width gives more chance to adjust the fit, and allows for development.

Many years ago, my first saddle was hand made in a workshop, in the saddlers back garden, I could literally choose the leather I wanted it made from hung up in his workshop. At that that point he said he only had three widths of tree to work with, so the actual fit was all down to how he made it.

Interestingly I find that my tracings are often completely different to other fitters, I went out to a big Irish cob last week and my tracing was over a width wider. It's not an exact science, but if you take the tracing far enough back, which I'm afraid is not the highest point of the wither. Occasionally it MIGHT be, but it's absolutely not the place to be taking the tracing as routine. You have mentioned a second one "behind the shoulder", this should be the first tracing.

Saddles should generally be well back behind the highest point of the wither and specifically the tracing should be taken 2" behind the back of the shoulder blade, sometimes I will take it even further back. The reason for this is that the tree points, or rather the front edge of them, should sit at this point, not further forwards. Saddles are so commonly too far forwards, and I suspect in the case of the cob I took my tracing further back, will have used different pressure too. And quite often the width I fit them with isn't a match with the tracing. I take my tracings at the end for this reason, easy to be misled by them.

 

[honetpot]

IMO I agree saddles are fitted to far forward, I think it comes from the idea that the girth should always lie just behind the elbow, where the most natural place for it to lie is not often there. I think its a good idea to check wither measurements, because people do sit them so far forward, the template really is just to get your eye in. The top of the wither gives a starting point for the tracing, because it's usually a fixed point, so when you transfer it to paper any other measurements are in relation to that first one. A bit like being measured for a suit, they measure from your neck, even though a chest measurement may be the one most people use for sizing. Faced with a 100 plus saddles and someone going, 'well this is a wide, how about this one?', a template you feel more secure in your choices.
I have watched a 'saddle fitter', pressuring someone to try a saddle which clearly didn't fit, so I think the more information you can gather before you often pay someone to come out the better.

 

[sbloom]

I hear you but using the top of the wither just isn't a good idea, it has no relevance, honestly. The fixed point is the back of the shoulder blade, its correct, its not visually misleading whereas any reference to the top of the wither could be, and usually is. A suit does relate to the top of the neck in several ways, a saddle does not relate to the highest point of the wither.