4 horses killed at Aintree..............

Luci07 said:
so let me throw this into the pot - I also enjoy NH racing, but... at Aintree, horses are always killed - not a one off, not a possibility, but always in some of the races during the meeting. I did try to look at figures for the aintree meeting say versus Cheltenham but couldn't find anything.

Horsedeathwatch.com lists all on course horse fatalities in the UK.

By the way, I am in no way anti-horseracing.
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Luci07 said:
but could these track be made safer - and by this I mean tougher criteria before being allowed to race?
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The track at Aintree has been changed, quite considerably, it doesn't look anything like it did in the 70s when Red Rum kept winning! And even then it'd been changed since the 50s and 60s.
The brook at Beechers has been filled in and the drop levelled off (it was much steeper on the inside) as has the drop at other fences.
I'm not sure what the criteria is, but horses do have to qualify for the GN and I'm pretty sure any horse that's fallen/unseated rider in a previous race has to undergo a vetting procedure



Many years ago I'd a friend who wouldn't watch the GN due to "half the horses dying" and "the jockeys beating the horses to make them jump" :eek: I watched the race while she hid in the bathroom screaming abuse at me :rolleyes: after the race I assured her no horses had died (which they hadn't) and suggested she watch the replay and point out the jockeys who were beating their horses ... she watched and had to admit that she couldn't see any horses being beaten, and she was quite surprised to see that all the fallen horses got up and carried on running, and that in quite a few cases the jockey fell off (as opposed to the horse falling, and there were a few refusals (including one spectacular one where the horse stopped and the jockey went flying over the fence!) she still doesn't like the idea of horses dying (but who does?) but she did change her views on the race being cruelty to animals and she happily watched it live the next year...
 
Pastie2 - Im inclined to agree with you re the standard of UK pointing. I have had this opinion for a while based on the statistics and results from former irish pointes once they turn their hand to NH. However since arriving in the UK 6mths ago I have attended a lot of points to points - many of those following the horses aorund the track. the standard of riding from the average jockey is poor - add that to a large number of substandard horses (especially in maiden races obviously) and its a recipe for disaster. Racing over solid fences is always risky, but imo more stringent rules regarding awarding of pointing licences to jockeys could prevent a lot of problems. (I have even been considering taking out a licence here as its far easier than it would be at home!!)
 
Lets face it, the welfare of racehorses could be better. Yes, many horses love racing and jumping at speed, however racehorses are mainly kept in a very unnatural way for human gain. They consequently show the after effects- stressy, crib biting, etc. There is a massive wastage rate, with uncertain futures and horses do die.
But because racing is on the tv everyday of course the bad side gets some publicity. Hacking isnt on the tv everyday and neither is eventing or other sports- so the negative sides just wont be publicised.

There is **** welfare and horses dying in many different disciplines- eventing to hacking. Unfortunately whatever the sport, the horses come second to human wants and that means many suffer from the consequences.

It is sad that a horse dies giving its all for people but maybe a death fuelled with adrenaline is better than the horses fate when it doesnt win anymore and is slung on the scrapheap to be pushed around from person to person. You only have to spend a few hours on here to read endless stories of screwed up ex racehorses.
 
I quite agree! But there are more screwed up race horses because there are more bred in the first place- thousands every year and just a few that stay in racing. The rest have to end up somewhere and there is a very high wastage rate. Its a numbers game
 
Tormenta said:
The thing I dislike most about the racing industry is the wastage of horses as regards breeding and cast offs who are neither fast enough, will never make the grade and unwanted yearlings who go straight to slaughter.

What do we want the racing industry to do? It won't stop, the horses have a job and most of them seem to love that job.

So instead of critics, answers please?
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Here's my semi-serious idea (and I'm sure its both unworkable and bound to upset some people!) .... Race cobs or hunters. The problem with thoroughbreds IMHO is they are bred to race and not much else. TBs aren't bred with long term soundness, temperament and all round rideability in mind so if they fail to race they aren't sought after for any other job, whereas if the fastest of an all round breed were used for racing instead, all the slower ones would be easily suited to other careers. OK they may have to lower the fences and the pace would be much slower but there still could be criteria for a level playing field and it would solve the problem of all the waste TBs knocking about. I can't quite picture AP McCoy charging across the line on a colored cob, but there's a first time for everything. :D
 
I agree with what you say- TBs are athletes bred for speed. But they can do other jobs, they just need to be trained appropriately. Many people have ex racers that shouldnt. They assume that because its been ridden it makes them a riding horse. The routine, environment, training and nutrition of a racehorse is totally different to a riding horse and people seem to forget this. They expect them to hack out on a loose rein on their own within a week, amongst other things. If they were trained, etc more appropriately and given a better transition then a TB can show, event, dressage, hack- all sorts of things.

But AP McCoy on a cob would be funny! Heh, they race camels!
 
Oh God, I have it on at the moment. I watch it every year behind my fingers. I must admit I am a racing fan, (my first cousin is a NH trainer) and I have friends who are NH trainers, but the National never sits all that well with me. Am watching all those brave, keen horses walking round the paddock at the mo and willing them all to come home safe. :(
 
I love racing but at the moment i'm watching something else and i can still feel my heart racing. Will watch a bit after and have had a bet but the national does terrify me.
 
Tony McCoy - a deserving winner! had backed Black Apalachi and dont Push it so v happy. Couldnt be a btter winner in Ruby' absence (though maybe if Ruby was on Big Fella hed have been better than 4th).
 
As for the other question by someone else about a F in their previous form I take that with a pinch of salt as the fact that a horse has fallen means nothing. Now if the horse had FFF or more before this race then I would be worried and horse should not run as clearly it has a problem unless the form reading suggests it has been unlucky. I do think that horses out of form should not be allowed to run though. Perhaps only allow a horse to run in the race if it finished in the frame on its previous start unless the horse fell said:
that was me - thank you for answering it. I freely admit I dont understand the intracies of NH racing so was asking a basic question. Your reply makes sense!
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Does anyone know what happened to Jaunty Flight, would took a bad fall in the 3.25 today? I think I read somewhere that she might have broken a leg as someone saw her get back up on 3 legs? Can anyone help me?
 
You see, i think its not true to say that TBs do not have the same longevity as other "riding horses". And other than perhaps a strong tendency for poor hooves there are no physical attributes of the breed that mean they wont be as sound/strong/able as any other horse during their lifetime. And many other breeds have a tendency for poor hooves (some breed societies even have poor conformation as a breed standard!) so I wouldnt think they cold be physically "substandard" when compared to other types of horses. Perhaps the only "scientific" info to contradict this would be the whole theory of the hybrid-vigour.
So.... instead of abolishing the TB and racing cobs/hunters/ponies(which are already raced but usually with plenty of TB blood), how about doing away with the average cob.
We would have reduced incidences of laminitis,insulin resistance, EMS, arthitis in happy hackers/all rounders (particularly hocks and pasterns which are more common in cobbier/warmblood types), probably a reduced incidence of choke to name but a few.
While not every ex racehorse or TB is suitable for a novice, many are - as can be seen with 10mins reading of this forum.

Racing - whether NH or flat will never be done away with - its a far more stable industry than the sport-horse equivilant and employs (directly or otherwise) millions of people around the world. Its also much more accessable to the average Joe Soap. And most importantly, the betting industry has sprung up around it. For these reasons, racing is here to stay. these are rough times for racing - prize money has dropped dramatically and many middle of the road horses have been pulled from training and graze unused in the fields due to lack of money but yet it drives on.
I was an out and out showjumping supporter as a child and teenager but after spending 1 week work experience in a world renowned flat stud at the age of 16 - I was won over. The sense of teamwork in these yards is unbelievable -from the smallest to the largest yards/studs etc. Rarely is a yard divided by the bitchyness found in the average yard - and the absence of "one-up-manship" makes the whole experience more pleasant. You can see from the coverage today just how thrilled everyone was for AP, Jonjo and McManus. Even Denis O'Regan who looked understandably a little upset 9i thought so anyway), was quick to congratulate his fellow jockey and re-iterated how happy he was for AP on camera afterwards.
I for one enjoy being part (albeit a small part right now) of the racing fraternity/industry.
 
One other thing to note is had all horses with P/finished out of the frame on its last run etc excluded then Dont Push it would not have been allowed to race. Infact, if you look through the previous form of all the runners, many of those who went off at long odds (and then justified them!) had finished in the money on their previous start whereas many of the serious contenders (and or better horses) had not. However if it were to be based on horses running in black-type races on their last race (bearing in mind the GN is a grade-3 so not TOP quality horses, but usually good strong jumping sorts who at their best could reach the frame in top grade races) then perhaps that would tighten things up.
 
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Blimey Glenruby you are brave, even talking about cobs on this forum gets a huge response, lol. It was a brilliant race and I am so pleased AP won finally. Thank god they all came home safely and such a better day than yesterday. I was in tears of emotion, the sheer guts and bravery of these fantastic horses, all the runners today had to dig deep. For those of you that say racing is cruel, look at the lads and lasses when they welcome their horses back, I know its not an emotion that I would get from watching a dresage competition. Well done Dont Push It and AP Mcoy is all I can say!!!
 
All horses safe and sound after the GN. Noone likes to see any horse die, of course they don't. I do watch racing and do sit there hoping every faller gets up and runs on. The majority of the time they do thankfully.

Banning racing is not a sensible idea in my opinion - on what basis? You ban racing you have to ban eventing, showjumping, dressage, hunting etc etc etc. Horses die every single day and horses are PTS every single day even when actually they are fit and well in general but maybe the owner doesn't have the time or money to look after it. Why is that more 'fair' than a horse dying on the race track?

We saw th H&H article the other day about the 2 horses killed byt the lorry and sadly the driver lost their life too. That it (sadly) a much more common occurrence than horses on the track dying/sustaining serious injuries. An accident is an accident whether it's on a race track, on the road, in a field or out on a xc counrty course. A horse certainly doesn't 'choose' to compete in any discipline we ask them to.

I don't like the wastage at all with racing but I do feel that NH horses are well cared for, loved and live a pretty good life in general and often go on for many years doing the job they enjoy.

The one change i would make if I could as far as the national is concerned is to restrict the entry to 30 horses as opposed to 40. However, I think the way they have changed the course has improved the race and has made it less dangerous and therefore much more spectator friendly. Sadly you cannot prevent every single accident happening. Well, unless like the big grey horse at the start, you just decide NOT to run at all! Lol
 
Yes Ladyt25 the grey horse certainly had his own oppinions, prime example of a horse that doesnt want to do it, but did you see all the fallers that did.!
 
Id just like to re-iterate how well cared for racehorses are. And those who say they dont get individual attention and personal care clearly have no experience of racing. Some members of this forum work in racing yards ( I believe one was leading up at the GN today). they will Im sure agree that the horses on their yards are loved and looked after with great care and attenion by their lads.
I recently made a decision(along with other vets) to PTS a horse at a pt-2-pt - its the only time since starting my career I have had tears in my eyes myself when PTS a horse i didnt know. Hearing grown men wailing is not easy to take. The reactions of trainer, owner and lad really rattled me. It was over v quickly and horse did not suffer but I have never seen anyone so overcome with grief (other than for family etc) than I did then.
 
I see no problem in NH racing, yes it's not nice seeing a horse die, but that is a quick death and I would say felt no pain, even if they break a leg, they are seen to straight away. If a horse doesn't want to race, they plant themselves just like the grey horse did today, hopefully they will find him another career or maybe the glue factory who knows?
 
Glenruby - you really have been the voice of reason on this protracted post.
Todays race was a wonderful result for AP - and there were some brilliant rides from the young Twiston Davies (who my daughter once beat in pony racing circles.....) and Nina on the less then keen grey. There were some terrible falls.....and the black horse who fell whilst riderless, than bought down one or two others was one of the worst.
Those who proclaim horse racing as cruel and barbaric without any qualifing arguments are a bit sad - and I often wonder, if they are the same people who often keep their horses on some horse sick pasture of about half an acre behind the ubiquitous white tape - with their idea of fun being to subject the animal to an hour a day's exercise in a sand pit? But, of course all very safe!
Glenruby - your comments about putting the horse down at a P2P......hope it is never one of mine.....and know I will be terribly upset if it was.....I had a pony shot in the field once (after it had broken its leg, whilst simply being turned out...!) and that was bad enough....but what is right for the horse is paramount. The pony who was shot - was eating apples out of our hand up to the final shot.......!
We had discovered his plight very soon after it had happened, and I am convinced that the animal was not in any substantial pain - hence it wanting to still eat titbits.
 
I wouldn't want to come back as a horse. We are still so behind with how we understand and interact with them and I haven't met one yet who I think leads an ideal life.

There are those like myself who try to accomodate our horses needs as best we can but many of us fail miserably due to lack of time, money, facilities and just having the space and grazing required.

I feel desperately sorry for the racehorses and think far too many end up on the scrap heap going to well meaning people who bite off more than they can chew. I admit a lot of competition horses lead greatly unnatural sterile lives and are very unhappy.

Sorry I am being a bit depressing here. I am not anti racing they are beautiful stunning creatures but I do feel things could be done better and I hate seeing them fall and watch the race through my hands.
 
well I am sorry but I have to disagree, I have 3 horses who have the life of riley they are loved as they allow one relishes all the attention he can get one of the others is very aloof and will only allow attention when she wants it , they all go out as much as the weather allows and all enjoy there exercise on a daily basis and competing when my work schedule allows there rugs are off on a daily basis and one of them even tells you where he needs scratching I am a very well trained human and my OH would tell you if he had a chance at another life it would be as one of my horses
 
If racing was banned then what would happen to all the horses?

Short term they would be shot! Longterm they would not be bred, thoroughbreds would becaome all but a thing of the past, quality would diminish. Development and vetinary facilities would decline, because they are majorly funded by the racing industry.

So yes bann racing good idea, infact ban everything remotely cruel, so thats showjumping, eventing prehaps even riding!

Was great to see all the national runners returned this year and well done ap for a fabulous win. And I for one want to take the horse that was in the lead for so long eventing he had a fantastic time until he tired enjoyed every minuite!
 
You seem to have moved away from the point of the original post ... which was NOT "lets ban racing" - it was a question over the conditions under which the NH is run, contributing factors to the accidents that happen. Please take time to read the whole thread - it is highly informative and in no way anti racing.
 
as the thread is moving away from the original post i will go in that direction.................racing will never be banned!
why?
think of the gambleing tax on every bet that is placed due to horse racing?! the government would lose millions! The GN is the biggesd betting racing in GB and makes a large contribution to this so will never be banned either!
I also strongly believe that all of this "its cruel and the horse's hate it and don't want to race" is utter nonsense! If horses do not want to do something they will not ! If they don't want to jump they will refuse! simple.
 
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