4-time changes for eventers? Discuss...

No I dont think it is necessary. The origins of dressage withn eventing is to show the correct training to produce a flexible and obedient athelete that will cross any country but still be obedient enough to produce a nice test. I dont feel that 4 time changes fit well within that?!
 
I would be interested to hear what some of the current 4* event riders think. Also are 4 time changes something that a 7/8 or full TB could physically do, or will it mean even more warmblood horses in the sport.

Fiona
 
dressage tests at high level very demanding indeed, but then by tht point in their carer should be well established with flying changes, using them constantly while jumping a course?! my novice can do 4time changes. he doesnt however manage very well with med/collected work?

aside of that i wld guess it is the germans, they have some fantastic dressage riding eventers, who can be very hit and miss with xc, so long as there remains a balance as regards the importance of each phase?!
 
I don't see why not...i've taught my showjumper to do two times and she's close to getting one times! we've always taught them in our yard and never had an issue teaching them to all shapes and sizes
 
My thoughts are that the scores after the dressage will be even further apart, those that struggle with changes will be even further behind those that can. Maybe at senior championships this will be a good thing, but what about the handful of one-horse people who get to **** level - is it fair? GlamourDol on here also said something interesting when the issue was first raised - she said that the point at which these changes are introduced in a dressage horse being produced within the correct scales of training produces a change in the distribution of the musculature of the horse. How will this affect them when jumping at speed? Will it increase the injury/fatality stats whose climb seems to coincide with the introduction of changes in eventing dressage tests anyway?
 
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My thoughts are that the scores after the dressage will be even further apart, those that struggle with changes will be even further behind those that can. Maybe at senior championships this will be a good thing, but what about the handful of one-horse people who get to **** level - is it fair? GlamourDol on here also said something interesting when the issue was first raised - she said that the point at which these changes are introduced in a dressage horse being produced within the correct scales of training produces a change in the distribution of the musculature of the horse. How will this affect them when jumping at speed? Will it increase the injury/fatality stats whose climb seems to coincide with the introduction of changes in eventing dressage tests anyway?

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Not at all- you only have to look at Ringwood Cockatoo- I watched him the other day and he is easily working at PSG level, doing 4 time changes, piaffe and passage(if that is PSG Level?!) with no problems at all. He doesnt look like a typical muscled up dressage horse- he still looks every bit an eventer.
I would have thought that Bettina has trained Toytown to do similar tricks as well. Both horses find their XC easy I reckon?
Video of cockatoo here just for clarification!

 
Ringwood Cockatoo and Toytown are arguably the best two event horses in the world at the moment. What about the other 78 horses at Badminton/Burghley/the Olympics? I'm not disagreeing with you, just trying to look at it from all angles.
 
There will always be people/horses that really struggle with the dressage, 4 time changes or no 4 time changes. So yes it will be more unfair on them. But on the other hand with correct training, even the most untypical horse CAN learn to 4 time changes if their training is correct and the correct foundations have been laid. Bettina has a pupil from OZ training with her at the moment, and her horse was the stiffest looking, most unathletic, ugly looking horse that Ive ever seen, it did not move well nor did it have good confo but it was most definately well on its way to learning 4 time changes and was beginning piaffe and passage etc.
I think that proves that most horses are capable of being able to do these movements with correct training
 
I dont think this is a good idea. If 4 time changes do get introduced then the top level competitions will become what lots of the lower level events are which is a dressage competition rather than an event.
At the top levels, the horses do not make the dressage tests look riduculously easy. They do have to work and so do the riders.
If the riders want to do more challenging movements like 4 time changes then they can compete in BD which is what a lot of the riders do anyway to sharpen up the dressage.
 
sadly tiger, i just think it will continue the trend for the dressage to have too much influnce. i dont think it is a problem to introduce them per see, as most showjumpers are quite able and polo ponies and hunter jumpers in the US but they are not being judged on the QUALITY of them which is where the problem lies. it will make the difference between the can abd the cannots widers as now there are already single marks for teh changes they are not part of another movement and this means they carry an excesive influence on the final score.
on the other hand it will make the dressage more of a spectacle like when they intiroduced changes in the first place, wastching the struggle was quite fun!! and if this reaally is the plan now i know why certain people are going to pammy Hutton for lessons!
 
My trainer seems very calm about them but she has a good dressage horse. She also trains with Lucinda Freds so again will probably have the best grounding in it. They have been muttered about for a long time so it is nothing new to the riders. Leg yeild is coming into 1* which is probably a good thing as think there is a real gap between 1* and 2* dressage at the moment.
 
I think it's a good thing.

If the horse changes correctly and in a nice balance then it's a logical step to test the obedience with 3 fours.
It will cathc out horses that arent balanced in their changes but manage to produce one through careful riding.

They need to put changes in all advanced tests though- it's silly that some dont have them.
 
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Leg yeild is coming into 1* which is probably a good thing as think there is a real gap between 1* and 2* dressage at the moment.

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I dont really see the point of leg-yield in a test- it's not really in preparation for anything at 2*
I'm not sure there is that much of a gap between 1 and 2*, assuming you're doing intermediate tests, 2* is on a level. 1* is perhaps a little easy and should involve true mediums?
 
If i get to 4* level i'll be dreading them!!!
Every young horse i've ever produced has learnt changes as a matter of course, as part of its SJ training rather than its dressage training, and they all find them reall easy when doing them as such... however Ernie has a HUGE problem with just one changes! how he'll manage with 4 time changes god only knows.. mind you, he's usually near the bottom after dressage, so i guess nothing'll change much
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I sat with Chris Bartle (who wrote the test) in Boekelo and discussed it.....His view is at that level horses should be doing changes and have been doing changes as part of the course for a long time - and yes my just 5yo is doing them fine for SJ and i suppose you could then put them into your dressage. He thinks that actually they're easier to train for than the 1 change as that is where "we" make such a big issue and the horse explodes so doing more, and more often isn't a bad thing.

I can see both sides of it. If you have trained the horse from the start there is no reason why it should be a problem, if they can do 1, they can do 4 time. Yes teaching something with "issues" with them wont be easy but hopefully now its tehre there'll be less with issues coming up thruogh the ranks.
 
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