4yr olds, Am I expecting too muh?

[JFTDWS]

Whilst exercise should be moderated while horses are developmentally immature, some controlled exercise is generally considered to be desirable.

To quote from an interview with Ian Cameron at Rossdales, which I have via a prominent veterinary science journalist and editor:

" Horses evolved to roam vast distances in search of food and water, and whilst the modern thoroughbred is far removed from a wild horse, they are still designed to respond favourably to early conditioning of the internal structures of the limbs.
The introduction of regular controlled exercise at an early age seems to have a positive effect on long term soundness, with horses that have been through sales preparation, training and racing, often proving to be more physically robust than those who spent their early years in the field"

I can provide the provenance for the quotation if necessary. Alas, I don't have a decent study to back this up, it is purely an expert opinion (and I am presenting it as that, and nothing more).

 

[Auslander]

The Spanish Riding School horses are not broken in until they are 5-6 years old when all their bones have fully matured. Maybe this is why their horses work so well into a grand age.

That's not quite correct, I'm afraid. They are broken at 4, but are not introduced to any of the High School movements until they are 6. To be physically capable of even starting these movements, they need to be exceptionally fit, and schooling at a very advanced level before the age of 6 - so they probably work harder than most at a relatively early age.

 

[Mike007]

Bone remodelling fluctuates depending on stress regardless of age. If you want to work a horse, the remodelling will occur when you start working it, and putting stress on the bones, even if it's physically mature. Remodelling is a very good thing - it's not something to avoid.

Indeed ,but it is at a maximum during the growth stage and for a while after.And as you rightly point out ,it occurs even in mature animals as a response to work. My point is that to push a horse during a period when the skeletal system is already under pressure is a mistake.

 

[JFTDWS]

Indeed ,but it is at a maximum during the growth stage and for a while after.And as you rightly point out ,it occurs even in mature animals as a response to work. My point is that to push a horse during a period when the skeletal system is already under pressure is a mistake.

That makes sense - although I would say that "pushing" a horse is the interesting point. A degree of stress on the bones may enhance the desired remodelling (an absence of stress would certainly be detrimental to the normal developmental remodelling). Excessive stress would certainly be detrimental (and risk GP fractures if unclosed at that stage). It's the line between "good" stress and detrimental stress which is hard to draw. Leaving a horse in a postage stamp field until fully mature is unlikely to be optimal, while trying to take a 4 year old round Badders would be similarly unwise.

 

[Mike007]

That makes sense - although I would say that "pushing" a horse is the interesting point. A degree of stress on the bones may enhance the desired remodelling (an absence of stress would certainly be detrimental to the normal developmental remodelling). Excessive stress would certainly be detrimental (and risk GP fractures if unclosed at that stage). It's the line between "good" stress and detrimental stress which is hard to draw. Leaving a horse in a postage stamp field until fully mature is unlikely to be optimal, while trying to take a 4 year old round Badders would be similarly unwise.

And that is why some people are such great trainers ,there is no clear scientific answer for us here . It is experience and observation and having the flexebility to change your plans that puts a chosen few at the top.

 

[nianya]

I perhaps should've commented that despite when growth plates fuse, I don't think any horse should be worked hard before 4. I don't think their bodies are ready for demanding workloads and I don't think their minds are either usually. I've seen a lot of horses who were "champions" at 4 be too broken down to ride by 7. I've seen it quite a bit with competition reiners and ropers with QH's. Trainers start them and 2, compete at 3 and retire at 6 because they end up lame.

 

[JFTDWS]

And that is why some people are such great trainers ,there is no clear scientific answer for us here . It is experience and observation and having the flexebility to change your plans that puts a chosen few at the top.

Yet Who knows what science will tell us in future!

 

[Mike007]

Yet Who knows what science will tell us in future!

Indeed! yet I suspect science will meerly explain the accurate observations of generations of old horsemen and vets .

 

[MyDogIsAnIdiot]

That's not quite correct, I'm afraid. They are broken at 4, but are not introduced to any of the High School movements until they are 6. To be physically capable of even starting these movements, they need to be exceptionally fit, and schooling at a very advanced level before the age of 6 - so they probably work harder than most at a relatively early age.

To agree with your point re:schooling. The horses at the SRS are lunged in side reins (starting loose and getting gradually shorter) for at least 3 months before they're even sat on. They then work 5-6 days a week schooling, though the focus is initially on going 'large' around the school and less on circles. Alois Podhajsky's book 'Complete Training of the Horse and Rider' goes into great detail when describing how the SRS horses are trained and broken, it's a very interesting read.

(Though is several decades old now so the workload may have changed in recent years).

 

[Mike007]

. Alois Podhajsky's book 'Complete Training of the Horse and Rider' goes into great detail when describing how the SRS horses are trained and broken, it's a very interesting read.

(Though is several decades old now so the workload may have changed in recent years).

Mike quietly rummages through the paperwork on his desk to find "the complete training of horse and rider " (and for those that want to know ,or dont believe me its ISBN 0-948253-51-7)

 

[MyDogIsAnIdiot]

Mike quietly rummages through the paperwork on his desk to find "the complete training of horse and rider " (and for those that want to know ,or dont believe me its ISBN 0-948253-51-7)

Haha, I imagine your desk looks like mine! I'd recommend 'Reflections on Equestrian Art' by Nuno Oliveria if you're that way inclined .

Edit: Found the exact text, bottom of page 83, onto page 84.
'The duration of training on the longe must depend on the conformation of the horse. Experience has shown that the longer the period of training on the longe, the greater will be the trainer's influence on the horse. The Lipizzaner stallions are longed for two or three months before work under the saddle begins'.

 

[Mike007]

Haha, I imagine your desk looks like mine! I'd recommend 'Reflections on Equestrian Art' by Nuno Oliveria if you're that way inclined .

Must look that one up ,thanks. I suspect that only in the worst horror movies could your desk look exactly like mine. .........Mike shuffles feinwerkbau target pistol back into its case,sweeps sundry vitamin and painkillers into the drawer. Hurls half a red Chillie that he has been nibbling into the bin, ............yes i,m normal ,see your desk is just like mine...........

 

[Tnavas]

Bone remodelling fluctuates depending on stress regardless of age. If you want to work a horse, the remodelling will occur when you start working it, and putting stress on the bones, even if it's physically mature. Remodelling is a very good thing - it's not something to avoid.

It is a good thing IF t remodels to maintain soundness - however it it remodels in the wrong area it can cause ongoing problems.

Eg Spavins, Sidebone, Ringbone, Splints - all remodelling that may cause problems

 

[Mike007]

It is a good thing IF t remodels to maintain soundness - however it it remodels in the wrong area it can cause ongoing problems.

Eg Spavins, Sidebone, Ringbone, Splints - all remodelling that may cause problems

Hell, I just wrote pages about some work I did 40 years ago regarding vitamin D3 overdose in horses and splint/spavin formation. I even mentioned the largest clinical trial ever conducted with horses .By the Austro hungarian army. (This of course never happened because you cant find it on google and only sad souls like me have read the original work) But needless to say ,the good old hho site lust lost it all.

 

[Tnavas]

That's not quite correct, I'm afraid. They are broken at 4, but are not introduced to any of the High School movements until they are 6. To be physically capable of even starting these movements, they need to be exceptionally fit, and schooling at a very advanced level before the age of 6 - so they probably work harder than most at a relatively early age.

Just had a read of my book and you are right - somehow I had missed memorising that point - though it then goes on to mention that they don't become mature until into their 7th year.

Interesting that I was always taught that lateral work not be taught until around that age - though I did spend some time training with Robert Hall who was Spanish Riding School trained, also the others I trained with were also very classical in their approach to training of a young horse.

At 4 we worked at Prelim level, at 5 Novice level and then on to early Elementary level at 6 with lateral work starting late 6. I still tend to do this.

At one time I had one of my young Pony Club students get on my TB who had only ever been schooled to go forward, to bend correctly and to move off the leg forward and only away enough to leg yield.

The next thing I see is my horse working through all the lateral movements with ease and the rider going "wow", "wow" as he went past.

His comments that he had never before ridden a horse so supple - that went on the bit from the leg and moved around so easily. He had not been taught any of the lateral movements but the suppleness and obedience was there and could progress with no problem.

I often think that resistances and problems originate because people are so impatient - they want the results so early. Waiting and taking time may be boring but it reaps rewards in the long run.

This young rider went on to pass A & H at 18 with honours.

 

[JFTDWS]

It is a good thing IF t remodels to maintain soundness - however it it remodels in the wrong area it can cause ongoing problems.

Eg Spavins, Sidebone, Ringbone, Splints - all remodelling that may cause problems

Well yes, but you can't pick and choose - the majority of remodelling is good - and good remodelling is essential for correct development and long term soundness. Whilst it can go wrong (as can everything) it's no reason to seek to avoid the principle itself. Optimal remodelling is dependent on a degree of stress on the bone. As I said upthread, this isn't an excuse to rush a horse to GP or take it around a 4* at 4, but the extreme alternative is potentially as detrimental.

 

[Tnavas]

Well yes, but you can't pick and choose - the majority of remodelling is good - and good remodelling is essential for correct development and long term soundness. Whilst it can go wrong (as can everything) it's no reason to seek to avoid the principle itself. Optimal remodelling is dependent on a degree of stress on the bone. As I said upthread, this isn't an excuse to rush a horse to GP or take it around a 4* at 4, but the extreme alternative is potentially as detrimental.

And thats the thing - you can't pick and chose how the remodelling goes so you make sure you wait until the horse has a mature bone structure before you put stress on it.

If you break in early and are prepared to just walk then fine - wild horse generally walk everywhere they rarely go faster!

 

[ester]

Though you then risk that that bone structure has developed without sufficient stress on it to maintain soundness when it is asked to do work?! Which is surely the issue discussed?

 

[Tnavas]

Though you then risk that that bone structure has developed without sufficient stress on it to maintain soundness when it is asked to do work?! Which is surely the issue discussed?

Of course it doesn't! If the horse has had quality nutrition, has been turned out or out for the first three/four years of its life its bones will have grown as they were supposed to grow. Then during the breaking in process if done sensibly the bones are then stressed and may be remodelled if conformation is poor and action not straight.

Remember that bones will only change their shape if there are stresses placed upon them - otherwise if the horses conformation and action don't put any more stress on the bones than that required to move around then there may be no change.

None of mine have ever been broken in before they have turned four. My current ones have not had a lame day in their lives! Barring a couple of abscesses. My mare is 11 and never yet been lame - and she wasn't broken until 6 years old.

 

[ester]

Ok... If you say so..... Think I'll just stick to what I know I know, from a scientific viewpoint rather than just all my horses have been fine so I definitely know. If you are breaking at 4 bones aren't fused so ...

 

[JFTDWS]

And thats the thing - you can't pick and chose how the remodelling goes so you make sure you wait until the horse has a mature bone structure before you put stress on it.

If you break in early and are prepared to just walk then fine - wild horse generally walk everywhere they rarely go faster!

"before you put stress on it". #Facepalm. So did you read the bits about how putting stress on bone is ESSENTIAL for CORRECT development, or are you just choosing to ignore that?

You're welcome to believe whatever you choose. But trying to cherry pick scientific knowledge to support your argument, or referencing papers which state the opposite and claiming otherwise, is really bad form.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

JFTD - a question. I had always thought that the 'Ranger' article was good for owners (like me) who don't work in the scientific field as it's not as 'dry' to read (sorry if that makes you cringe, but I can't think of a better way of phrasing it). So really my question is, is the information in it outdated now?

 

[JFTDWS]

JFTD - a question. I had always thought that the 'Ranger' article was good for owners (like me) who don't work in the scientific field as it's not as 'dry' to read (sorry if that makes you cringe, but I can't think of a better way of phrasing it). So really my question is, is the information in it outdated now?

No I know exactly what you mean. I wouldn't expect the average horse owner to read and comprehend original research papers (I don't always fully understand the nuances in the methods myself as it's not my field!) and the Ranger article does explain some aspects nicely. Some of the research on which it is based is outdated, but in the absence of a better equivalent, it's probably still the most accessible of its type. However, I would suggest that owners read it with those caveats in mind, and accept that there may have been developments in specific areas. It's far from useless - and much of the article is broadly true as far as we're aware at present, but it's not really evidence to support an argument, when compared to other more recent academic papers with actual supporting data. Does that help in any way?

 

[Meowy Catkin]

It does. Thanks.

 

[ester]

"before you put stress on it". #Facepalm. So did you read the bits about how putting stress on bone is ESSENTIAL for CORRECT development, or are you just choosing to ignore that?

You're welcome to believe whatever you choose. But trying to cherry pick scientific knowledge to support your argument, or referencing papers which state the opposite and claiming otherwise, is really bad form.

Quite you can believe whatever you want to, from experience, the pony club manual circa 1975, or from imbibing incorrect information from people who have actually done the science or schooled young horses to do high intensity work. It doesn't mean that you are correct though or that you can expect anyone else to agree with you!

I think such articles are great for owners faracat, if like Jftd says they remember they may well be subject to the writers opinion not just the facts

 

[Tnavas]

F

"before you put stress on it". #Facepalm. So did you read the bits about how putting stress on bone is ESSENTIAL for CORRECT development, or are you just choosing to ignore that?

You're welcome to believe whatever you choose. But trying to cherry pick scientific knowledge to support your argument, or referencing papers which state the opposite and claiming otherwise, is really bad form.

Stress does not need to be EXCESSIVE stress, a young horse out in his paddock will stress his bones every day by playing around, bucking, leaping, rearing and galloping around. You don't have to deliberately damage his bones by working them too.

I've seen enough damage to young bones over the years to last a lifetime.

 

[seejay]

Barring a couple of abscesses. My mare is 11 and never yet been lame - and she wasn't broken until 6 years old.

There are plenty of people who own eleven year old ex race horses who were broken at eighteen months raced at two and are never lame. And thousands who own ordinary riding horses broken at three or four who are eleven or more and never lame.

I have ridden a horse broken as a six year old which had been left to mature in a field by the breeder. The horse was desperately one sided, to the point of appearing almost lame, and in my view would have been a lot better if worked to improve his straighteness at a much earlier age. He also threw a splint at eight, which made him hopping lame.

 

[ester]

F

Stress does not need to be EXCESSIVE stress, a young horse out in his paddock will stress his bones every day by playing around, bucking, leaping, rearing and galloping around. You don't have to deliberately damage his bones by working them too.

I've seen enough damage to young bones over the years to last a lifetime.

Again that is what you think/your opinion it is entirely possible (I draw your attention back to the rossdale's vet comment) that isn't sufficient and that the horse's physiology does not agree with your ideas of EXCESSIVE- not sure why the capitals!

 

[JFTDWS]

F

Stress does not need to be EXCESSIVE stress, a young horse out in his paddock will stress his bones every day by playing around, bucking, leaping, rearing and galloping around. You don't have to deliberately damage his bones by working them too.

I've seen enough damage to young bones over the years to last a lifetime.

F?

No, stress does not need to be EXCESSIVE. However, your assumption that a young horse will get OPTIMAL stress from being plonked in a paddock and ignored is just that - an assumption, your opinion, and an opinion which is not shared by everyone, many of whom are in a better position to judge.

 

[Cortez]

I'm not a scientist, although I have read a number of the cited papers, but I have been a breeder and have broken many, many horses over a 35 year professional life with horses. In my experience, and in consultation with other professional trainers of young horses, horses which are broken late (after 4 years) have been more likely to have physical and psychological problems with the whole riding idea, and the later they are broken the more pronounced the problems. Of course there are many horses which are perfectly fine no matter what age they are, but IME 3 years of age is the optimal time to begin the breaking process, 4 is the time for consolidation and 5+ is when the horse properly goes to work. Experience and judgement is the key to progressing horses, and fluttering around not doing stuff is not going to produce horses capable of doing a useful job.