4yr olds, Am I expecting too muh?

sorry to say the following if anyone disagrees, but this is my experience, personally,I would not break any horse under 4 years, I've just done one at 5 plus years, it is a joy to work with a horse who is mentally and physically capable of learning everything first time, who wants to be ridden can balance naturally because he is maturing, I also think that suppleness is largely a process of training and correct riding combined with fitness,ie. a fat unfit blob is not going to move in a way that enhances suppleness, and believe that riding out is an vital ingredient in the early training.

the horse in question moved around plenty as a youth due to being out most of the time taking frequent sharp gallops at liberty, I always feed oats to babies to ensure they have energy to move about plenty.

to be honest looking back the best horses I had were the ones that didn't work hard or compete until 6 7 8 years they could take the work and stayed sound all their lives.

to put a young tb into training is not done for the benefit of the horse's bones

if a horse is right mentally and physically he is made to function what ever his age of training, always assuming he has the luck to meet the right rider.
 
JustFindingTheDecorations said:
F?

No, stress does not need to be EXCESSIVE. However, your assumption that a young horse will get OPTIMAL stress from being plonked in a paddock and ignored is just that - an assumption, your opinion, and an opinion which is not shared by everyone, many of whom are in a better position to judge.
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Really! How rude! So what makes you think you know any better than me?

I've worked with horse for the past 40 years both competition horses (international/Olympic level) and also racehorses gallopers and harness horses. The ones that have always broken down have been the racehorses.

I've worked in yards where we have had over 100 horses in training - from yearlings to older steeplechasers. Some of the yearlings have been so overworked to prepare them for the sales that they already have splints, mental problems and back issues. Magic was four, when her cannon bone shattered - so much for remodelling! One hunter I worked with an ex racehorse developed sore shins and a spiral fracture - dead at 6 years old.

There have been those that have broken legs at home while cantering around the training track. I've seen them with joint mice, hip problems, my own came back from the trainer with a ruptured hip joint.

Another of mine broke her femur as a result of being roped as a youngster. It damaged the growth plate. She reared up in protest one day,sat down and there was a tiny click and the femur was broken at the growth plate.

Many break down before they even make it to the track - all have been worked since they were around 18 months - the first three months from being broken was good sound walking but it doesn't always mean that their skeletal system will cope with the work of a racehorse or competition horse.

The majority of my own horses, either bred myself or bought as yearlings and not broken in until 4 have all been 100% sound and stayed so. One of mine was exported to the UK and progressed to a two* eventer. Another is in Germany, the ones I have hear in NZ are all competing 100% sound and they certainly aren't dumped in the paddock and ignored.

Youngsters turned out together will play and hoon around at least twice a day, dawn & dusk and stress their frame quite nicely. If you consider that for centuries horses have been allowed to grow turned out, and then brought in for breaking in their fourth year successfully.

If you want to wear your horse out before its time that up to you, but I know from 4 decades of experience that they do fine left until rising four.

You only have to read the many posts about lame horses on this site to be very aware that horses are not as sound as they used to be.
 
As I said earlier

experience/pony club manual/own opinon doesn't make you right either! I imagine there are plenty of other reasons for TBs breaking more often- breeding for going fast doesn't necessarily mean soundness is included with that :p.

I think it's pretty obvious that you didn't used to hear about unsound horses so much in the past as they were turned away or shot...

So far on this thread Tnavas you have claimed two things as absolute fact when questioned which have later been proved to be irrefutably wrong so I might take the rest with a pinch of salt.
 
Tnavas, I'm not talking about your little anecdotes - I really couldn't care less if you'd jumped around Badminton on a mule. I'm talking about how people present scientific fact, opinion and research. You've repeatedly made false claims on this thread about the science. I am qualified to judge here - as is Ester, Auslander and a good many others on this forum.

This is not about how you, or I, would train a young horse - once again, I couldn't care less what you do, or how many sound/broken/purple horses you've known - that is not the issue being questioned here. This is about the scientific evidence available at present and if you make claims which are not supported by the data in your own links, I will call you on it.
 
OP, i have a rising 4yo the same as you. Mine is 4 in June. She's KWPN and currently standing at around 16.2. I bought her last march from the field and did bits of handling with her. Sat on her around early Nov time and she has had until the last few weeks off. She has now come back into work a much stronger horse- I have started lightly riding in walk and trot from last week and on weekends she will be going on some hacks. I am aiming for 4yo classes later in the year. She is a very level headed horse whom I don't think will be too bothered by busy show atmospheres. I will start fittening her up from here on, and getting some schooling in place, then start popping some poles and fences around march-april. She is a quick learner with a good head on her,as i think many young horses are. I will start taking her jumping at the beginning of summer and aim for some 4yo classes towards september time, so she can jump at Arena UKs festival at the end of september (hopefully). I don't see any of this as strenuous work for a 4yo when she will only be ridden 2-3 times a week, and not 'hammered' at that. I think people over estimate 4yo classes. They are not technical, nor are they a rat race. For the average WB that tends to jump these 1m classes, for a steady DC they are not really that big of an ask. I know of many horses that have jumped from 4year olds, up through the age classes and the ranks without any health problems at all, and are still enjoying jumping at high level into their teens
 
ljohnsonsj said:
OP, i have a rising 4yo the same as you. Mine is 4 in June. She's KWPN and currently standing at around 16.2. I bought her last march from the field and did bits of handling with her. Sat on her around early Nov time and she has had until the last few weeks off. She has now come back into work a much stronger horse- I have started lightly riding in walk and trot from last week and on weekends she will be going on some hacks. I am aiming for 4yo classes later in the year. She is a very level headed horse whom I don't think will be too bothered by busy show atmospheres. I will start fittening her up from here on, and getting some schooling in place, then start popping some poles and fences around march-april. She is a quick learner with a good head on her,as i think many young horses are. I will start taking her jumping at the beginning of summer and aim for some 4yo classes towards september time, so she can jump at Arena UKs festival at the end of september (hopefully). I don't see any of this as strenuous work for a 4yo when she will only be ridden 2-3 times a week, and not 'hammered' at that. I think people over estimate 4yo classes. They are not technical, nor are they a rat race. For the average WB that tends to jump these 1m classes, for a steady DC they are not really that big of an ask. I know of many horses that have jumped from 4year olds, up through the age classes and the ranks without any health problems at all, and are still enjoying jumping at high level into their teens
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Great!!! Thank you!!! I was starting to wonder if the thread had got lost in a b*tch fight!
Mine sounds pretty similar to yours, bright, quick learner etc, I've loose schooled her a few times and she has a cracking back end, so excited to see her once shes out and about. I've booked a few clinics with her to get her used to going out with others etc so will see how she goes, and then maybe give her a few weeks off. We did have a set back on the weekend,but hoping the vet will see her Wednesday and answer some questions.
 
ellie_e said:
Great!!! Thank you!!! I was starting to wonder if the thread had got lost in a b*tch fight!
Mine sounds pretty similar to yours, bright, quick learner etc, I've loose schooled her a few times and she has a cracking back end, so excited to see her once shes out and about. I've booked a few clinics with her to get her used to going out with others etc so will see how she goes, and then maybe give her a few weeks off. We did have a set back on the weekend,but hoping the vet will see her Wednesday and answer some questions.
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Sounds good! Would be great if you could do some reports from your clinics etc, i think when people hear 4yos and jumping they think straight away they are going to be in lots of work,but i don't think thats the case at all, the older ones tend to be worse!
 
ljohnsonsj said:
Sounds good! Would be great if you could do some reports from your clinics etc, i think when people hear 4yos and jumping they think straight away they are going to be in lots of work,but i don't think thats the case at all, the older ones tend to be worse!
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Shes maybe schooled once a week, shes lunged once a week, and hacked once/twice. All in walk/trot and if lunged a very small amount of canter (1 circle if that) I really dont think thats 'hard' work,and she most certianly wont be over jumped as the only reason I had something so young was to be able to stop that, but saying that, she has a job to do and believe the more she see's at a young age the better.
Shes off on Saturday to her first clinic with my mums horse will try and get some pics, luckily its with the guy who broke her and came with me to see her so knows her really well if it all goes pear shaped i'm hoping he can jump on!
Ljohnson, Can I ask how yours has been in his mouth?? Shes been abit strange this last week shaking her head etc, stops when I ride her forwards but she did have her woolf tooth out so not sure if theres something going on from that still?
 
ellie_e said:
Shes maybe schooled once a week, shes lunged once a week, and hacked once/twice. All in walk/trot and if lunged a very small amount of canter (1 circle if that) I really dont think thats 'hard' work,and she most certianly wont be over jumped as the only reason I had something so young was to be able to stop that, but saying that, she has a job to do and believe the more she see's at a young age the better.
Shes off on Saturday to her first clinic with my mums horse will try and get some pics, luckily its with the guy who broke her and came with me to see her so knows her really well if it all goes pear shaped i'm hoping he can jump on!
Ljohnson, Can I ask how yours has been in his mouth?? Shes been abit strange this last week shaking her head etc, stops when I ride her forwards but she did have her woolf tooth out so not sure if theres something going on from that still?
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Sorry i can't be of much help with the mouth- She has been fine!! I was actually only saying when i got back on how lovely she feels in the mouth. She had her teeth done last august-september, and dentist said she had wolf teeth but they didnt seem to be bothering her, and she hasn't seemed bothered with her bit in at all so far- but he is coming back next month so we will see. How long ago did yours have them out? If you are concerned i would definatley get back in touch with your vet/dentist and see what he thinks. Mine does sometimes stop when i ride her forwards but she does so even on a loose rein so i just put that down to baby behaviour, but now you've mentioned it! I will mention it to my dentist when he comes back out too
 
Auslander said:
The title "Doctor" - combined with years of study at the Royal Veterinary College would probably suffice...
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What a lot of snotty people we have on here today!

Let's say that experience says a lot as well as credentials. There are vets and there are vets!

Some vets barely know one end of a horse from the other, their equine knowledge only gained from the training they have received. Like the one who bandaged my youngsters cut leg with a couple of turns of vet wrap. When the horse was returned to me by the child leasing it the bandage was in the wound. So to me vets are not gods!

Science may 'prove' many things but sadly they are not always right. In some matters I go by my experience, in this case the stress the young horse puts his limbs under goofing around in the paddock is sufficient for me. The fact that I've not had to call a vet to any of my horses in over 20 years says much.

And in answer to the OP's post - It's a stupid thing to do to be competing a 4year old ShowJumping
 
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ljohnsonsj said:
Sorry i can't be of much help with the mouth- She has been fine!! I was actually only saying when i got back on how lovely she feels in the mouth. She had her teeth done last august-september, and dentist said she had wolf teeth but they didnt seem to be bothering her, and she hasn't seemed bothered with her bit in at all so far- but he is coming back next month so we will see. How long ago did yours have them out? If you are concerned i would definatley get back in touch with your vet/dentist and see what he thinks. Mine does sometimes stop when i ride her forwards but she does so even on a loose rein so i just put that down to baby behaviour, but now you've mentioned it! I will mention it to my dentist when he comes back out too
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She had it out week before Xmas, then gave her 2weeks off. She had been fine once I got back on, this has only started this week, vet is booked for Wednesday to do her second lot of jabs so will get him to look again then. Shes bright so dont want her to get into bad habits at this age! I'm riding her in a loose ring jointed snaffle, with plain caveson and running martingale. She does have pretty nasty mud fever on back legs so has been in on box rest, hoping the bad behaviour this week if just a grumpy, sore mare rather than a sign of things to come, as she has been so easy and seemed to enjoy her work.
 
ester said:
As I said earlier

experience/pony club manual/own opinon doesn't make you right either! I imagine there are plenty of other reasons for TBs breaking more often- breeding for going fast doesn't necessarily mean soundness is included with that :p.

I think it's pretty obvious that you didn't used to hear about unsound horses so much in the past as they were turned away or shot...

So far on this thread Tnavas you have claimed two things as absolute fact when questioned which have later been proved to be irrefutably wrong so I might take the rest with a pinch of salt.
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So who has the proof that TBs break more than other types as I would dispute that! Top level riders in eventing are finding a lot more soundness issues now due to the warmblood breeding working its way in.
what a load of rubbish about hearing about unsound horses . horses were sounder years ago because people knew how to get them fit properly and look after them without cutting corners it wasnt because they were turned away or shot, where is your proof on that one. Maybe today we here more about horses being unsound due to this forum and others. As much as you will disagree where is the proof that horses are having longer competetive lives due to veterinary science. You only have to look at various records within the horse world to realise that the perceived improvement in the equine world brought about by science and veterinary care has not improved the equine athlete at all compared to how the human one has improved. In racing as that is the easiest discipline to compare there are some records that have stood for many decades.
The trouble is scientists like to think their improving the world however reality is a different thing,I have yet to meet one who has an ounce of common sense.
 
Tnavas said:
Some vets barely know one end of a horse from the other, their equine knowledge only gained from the training they have received. Like the one who bandaged my youngsters cut leg with a couple of turns of vet wrap. When the horse was returned to me by the child leasing it the bandage was in the wound. So to me vets are not gods!

Science may 'prove' many things but sadly they are not always right. In some matters I go by my experience, in this case the stress the young horse puts his limbs under goofing around in the paddock is sufficient for me. The fact that I've not had to call a vet to any of my horses in over 20 years says much.
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Are you really suggesting that Ian Cameron, partner at Rossdales, one of the foremost equine vet practices in the UK, used (I believe) by the NZ eventing team, doesn't know one end of a horse from the other? Because that's quite a substantial claim...

On a technical point (and yes, I do get bored of saying this), science doesn't seek to "prove" things. Science investigates and presents real evidence - not anecdotes and unsubstantiated claims - in unbiased terms. This discussion has never been about you...
 
JustFindingTheDecorations said:
Are you really suggesting that Ian Cameron, partner at Rossdales, one of the foremost equine vet practices in the UK, used (I believe) by the NZ eventing team, doesn't know one end of a horse from the other? Because that's quite a substantial claim...

On a technical point (and yes, I do get bored of saying this), science doesn't seek to "prove" things. Science investigates and presents real evidence - not anecdotes and unsubstantiated claims - in unbiased terms. This discussion has never been about you...
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Cant help it sorry! Just like UEA on climate change then.
Scientists tend to twist things to the benefit of whos paying the bills this month im afraid!! Truely independant minded scientist are few and far between!
 
Sorry OP but for what its worth I would suggest that with mine their 4yo year is really a play it by ear year ! That probably does not help you much but my years have taught me no two horses are the same but I draw on my experience to do as much as I think the horse can cope with physically and mentally. There is no doubt that if you do to much to soon you will pay for it down the line. It is the inexperienced owners who have the biggest issue with this approach as they have not built up that knowledge over the years and just go by what they see others doing.
My only answer to that would be in showjumping and eventing you will not see professional riders competing horses that they think is one for them in the future at that age! They only tend to bring out young horses that they then sell on.
 
ljohnsonsj said:
Almost all of Laura Renwicks, and many other SJ'ers jump their horses, compete them aswell at 4. Not heavy but they do.
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the difference between a pro competing a 4 yr old and an amateur competing a 4 yr old is this-

ellie_e said:
this is my first real youngster so have been unsure what to expect from her. I've booked her onto a load of different clinics ranging from flat, pole work and some jumping in late feb
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A pro can sit on 4 yr old, pop them over a couple of fences at home one or twice and then take them to a show. The pro has confidence in their own ability to manage the situation, regardless of what happens in the ring, to make it a positive experience for the horse.

An amateur will seek to create a positive experience by repetition, ie grid work at home, clinics, training shows over tiny fences etc. On a young horse this causes additional milage and while I think some 4 yr olds are mature enough physically and mentally to be out competing I would still try and keep the milage low at this age. If you're not planning on selling them you have many years ahead to achieve your dreams
 
here is a bit of sort of science, not mine thank god!!! but first hand from Ireland`s top racehorse trainer, who I just happened to be talking to last year, according to their vet I don`t know the name, 80 per cent of horses at post mortem have kissing spines, now how that relates to the overall equid population I would`nt have a clue, but assuming that some died from various causes it certainly makes you think there is a lot going on under the surface that is not known about, and how does this relate to the working of horses too young would be very interesting to know, whether they were exclusively racehorses I could not say.
 
tristar said:
here is a bit of sort of science, not mine thank god!!! but first hand from Ireland`s top racehorse trainer, who I just happened to be talking to last year, according to their vet I don`t know the name, 80 per cent of horses at post mortem have kissing spines, now how that relates to the overall equid population I would`nt have a clue, but assuming that some died from various causes it certainly makes you think there is a lot going on under the surface that is not known about, and how does this relate to the working of horses too young would be very interesting to know, whether they were exclusively racehorses I could not say.
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I think the most recent work has 92% of racehorses at PM have evidence of KS, whilst 40% of normal (not showing signs) of 'normal' horses show it on radiograph. 97 or 98% of racehorses on PM also have osteoarthritis of the facet joints. What no one knows is how many of these were actually showing back pain, or is it just 'horses' or 'TBs'. The 40% of normal horses is a random cross section, not ones presented with issues.
 
PapaFrita said:
*Waves* Yep 15yo TB never lame beyond abscesses and a splint.
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also waving-Fig, broken at 18months, raced at 2yo, until 7yo, moved from Oz to Japan to Uk and started his dressage career at 8yo.............now 11yo competing adv med and schooling PSG and doesnt even have a splint never mind been lame.

Thats hard work.

some horses are tough and some are not and beyond not thrashing anything of any age over ****** ground i thinks its a much a lottery as a science.
 
To respond to the Op. I think the quantity of work is important as is the quality of the work.

We've commented on here before that a good pro will get a young horse to do more, quicker than your average numpty, with less prep and less strain. So it probably depends on how much drilling or prep you need to do to achieve the age classes as to whether they are a good idea.

I also believe that too much work on surfaces - including 'good' surfaces, is detrimental, horse needs a range of surfaces & plenty of steady road work is my ideal. I would also not ever do much gridwork with a baby, much prefer polework, with related distances and single efforts to ensure they can canter down to a fence happily. I'd do all the above with a 4year old with loads of time off after work days and rarely 'on the bit'.
 
on the kissing spines , I said 80 per cent because I was,nt sure I remembered it correctly and did.nt want to say the wrong figure but I was sure it was 80 or 90, but I think they actually said 90 per cent.

I knew a horse of 22 competing in dressage who raced at 2, he was really lovely small neat chestnut, however my mind often wanders to the thousands of tb`s exported for meat.
 
My horse was broken young for racing. Raced once at 3 then turned away until 4. When he was 4.5 he did some hacking, reschooling and a showing show. He didn't start jumping untill he was nearing 5.
He's officially in his 10th year now and other than some stiffness issues I have to keep on top of which I believe is a product of his early breaking touch wood he's a tough sound thing. I attribute that to his good conformation and the fact he had that time off as a 4yr old to mature.

I now livery at a top sport horse breeding and showjumping yard. The horses owned by the yard owners are never broken before their 4th year. They are regularly handled since day one but they do not see a saddle or a bit until they turn 4. They don't do in hand work or anything. They don't go to a show until 5. Then they progress quickly. Their rising 6yr old is jumping 1m20 courses. The fact the horses are mature and the skill and knowledge of the riders who break them and bring them on mean they sail through the ropes. They have them jumping small x poles only 6-8 weeks after starting their long reining and lunging. They spend the rest of the 4th year jumping at home.
5th year they go out and start with 90-1m courses at shows but they are jumping much bigger at home by this stage and they quickly move up from there.

They also break horses for other people and they have different instructions from other owners. There are a couple two year olds being broken at the moment and they look so weak compared to the yard horses. They also have a tougher time. The two-three year olds are not so smooth at being broken as the older horses and it makes us all sad to see them fight on the long lines as they get confused and don't have the strength to do what is asked of them. They all get there in the end of course, but they do take longer. We do all wonder how they will fare in the future. My yard owner who jumps at Grand Prix maintains that she would never break one of their own until it's 4th year and she's proud that a lot of the home grown ones are still doing jobs in their 20's :).
 
Just to add, bill managed to get a splint on the foreleg simply from playing in his field. He got the splint at 5, and it had completely gone (reabsorbed) by end of his 6th year - and he did a 1* as a 6 year old in the young horse classes.
He does has one on the outside of his hind, but again that one appeared overnight after a week off in the field -pretty sure he got kicked by the donkeys. It is in the process of receding, but it will take time. He hasn't been lame with either of splints.

OP, In your shoes I would probably just do a bit of everything with a 4 year old, see the world etc. and do competitions of all atmospheres, ie. Small quiet ones to big busy shows. Schooling i would just aim for basics and then towards end of 4th year step up the work .
I'n Ireland 4 year olds are a big market as they start to show potential - but rye talent & potential can be seen over 90cms just as much as 1.20 :)
Even the RDS Young event horse championship only has the 4 year olds jumping 1m max, so I would just do what feels right with yours :)
 
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