5yo with bad attitude - HELP

[DosyMare]

Have started introducing jumping with my lad. Nothing massive just small cross poles and logs. And he was really getting confident and enjoying himself. His only jumped a handful of times. I took him to a clinc and was jumping lovely and then just stopped! Wouldn't even go forward into a small cross - refusing to even go into canter! So we took him home - confused!
Continued hacking and schooling and didn't jump for a few weeks. Everything checked from saddles to back and teeth - all good.
So we went XC today and again he started lovely and forward and jumped the logs and through the water and over the coffin. Then he had a stop which is acceptable but then wouldn't even go near a fence. It's like he switched attitudes and wouldn't even move. Refused to even canter and was napping to the lorry. You can give him a kick and smack but you don't even get a reaction. He just switches into a stubborn git.
So what do I do??? I've been told it's just his age and a teenage tantrum.
But it now appearing in his dressage and schooling. Refusing to canter when asked and not moving forward.
Just feel so dishearted as working so hard having lessons and improving and now this is happening.
His a 5yo WB x Cob his a big lad nearly 17hh. When he does work his amazing but this current attitude to jumping I don't know what to do.
It's not overly important that he jumps because his for dressage but I thought it would be good for him. I know he needs to gain confidence hence why I've not pushed him or over faced him.
Anyone have any positive stories or horses that have been through this and now fine.
Thanks X

 

[rachk89]

My horse kind of does this, but its to scare me. As soon as we go into the arena, he jogs, doesnt walk, and he'll spook at stuff he normally doesnt find scary, he'll leap about, he'll nap etc. But I've had a couple of lessons and we've found that by just asking him to stand and then walk, then stand, then walk again, repeating any time he gets a 'fright' or gets nappy, he eventually gets bored of trying and gives in. Will also do tiny circles with him too if he starts trying to race (he cant leap forward when on a 5m circle). So I basically just bore him out of it now. I progress this halting thing up to trot too if he really wants to be an ass. He does a quarter of the circle in trot, then I ask for walk for a couple of strides then trot a quarter again. Can do this round the arena too to the markers. It gets him thinking about what am I going to ask next and he gives in with his little tantrums. Then I can work him properly once he's listening, plus this does also help with reaction times and getting them off the leg. Since I've done these kind of exercises, he is very responsive.

Might work for your boy. Just what I do with my idiot.

 

[Doormouse]

I would imagine that as a big horse he is still fairly weak at 5. You may find that he is actually struggling to cope with what you are asking, hence he starts off ok but quickly finds himself tiring due to weak baby muscles, ligaments and bones. Horse don't mature nearly as quickly as we believe and the bigger they are the weaker and slower to mature.

I should step back a bit as he may even be growing at the moment. Just hack him quietly for a month or 2 or even give him a month off.

 

[rachk89]

I would imagine that as a big horse he is still fairly weak at 5. You may find that he is actually struggling to cope with what you are asking, hence he starts off ok but quickly finds himself tiring due to weak baby muscles, ligaments and bones. Horse don't mature nearly as quickly as we believe and the bigger they are the weaker and slower to mature.

I should step back a bit as he may even be growing at the moment. Just hack him quietly for a month or 2 or even give him a month off.

Theres that too. I mean you said he is half WB so he will mature more slowly. Mine is half WB too and he was still growing at 7. He grew 2 inches in the (almost) year that I've had him, although that may be partly due to his lack of food growing up. But he has filled out a lot and yours will too.

 

[SusieT]

sudden stopping - could it be pain?

 

[lannerch]

I think to he's finding it all too much, was the clinic one of his first party's? In between he sounds like he was fine, and then the next time he exhibited was at the cross country ie the next party. Somewhere strange unfamiliar, being asked to do unfamiliar things. Sounds like he's finding it all too much and shutting down.
If this is the case I would step back, maybe take him to a few shows , different places as a passenger, tie him to the box, and that's it. Good luck

 

[Shay]

Echo that and doormouse. For some reason he is failing to cope with what you are asking. Either because his body is still growing or his mind is. And because he is such a big lad he is now learning to use his size and strength against you. Something you really don't need him to do! Can you turn him away from a couple of weeks and then start again almost from the beginning. Give him confidence in himself again - and time to forget that he has just figured out you can't make him do what he doesn't want to!

 

[DosyMare]

Thanks RachK89 - I do lots of transitions as well when his not listening and distracted. However this wouldn't work when he just refuses to go forward.

 

[DosyMare]

Thank you.
No this wasn't one of his first parties - his been going out for lessons and dressage and hacking. He had been to this little XC course end of last year before but this was the first time this year. The logs are only about 1ft - he can step over them. But it's the napping back to the lorry and refusing to jump away from home. Then he just plants himself and refuses to even go with the other horse.
He does it SJ as well.
I don't ask him to jump much - once a month. I thought it was a baby confident thing but he starts of great.
I don't think it's pain - I've spent out on back and teeth and saddles. His saddle is brand new jump saddle and his fine when I hack in it.
Just feel lost - people seem to think it's a cob stubborn trait and say I need to nip it in the bud. But no suggestions on now.
I know his only 5yo and growing so I'll give him time.

 

[DosyMare]

https://instagram.com/p/BE55mScF7GoAHEFRlgzRGhkN83BrqlwJ9BSdmk0/

 

[nato]

Sounds to me like he has napped once, got away with it, and has learned he can do it to get out of work now. Like a small child learning the word 'NO', he's doing it because he can.

There of course may be some underlying issue as to why he did it in the first place or why he continues to do it (e.g. pain, lack of understanding, feeling overwhelmed) which you need to address, but the napping will need to be nipped in the bud fairly quickly before he learns to do it for everything. If you feel he's not jumping because of pain, OK, but napping back to the lorry is not. Even if you have someone ride in front of you or you have to long-rein (I have done this on some good advice from bepositive) or lead, just get him going forward and teach him that he must respect your aids, and in turn you will do right by him and not push him beyond his limits.

 

[DosyMare]

Sounds to me like he has napped once, got away with it, and has learned he can do it to get out of work now. Like a small child learning the word 'NO', he's doing it because he can.

There of course may be some underlying issue as to why he did it in the first place or why he continues to do it (e.g. pain, lack of understanding, feeling overwhelmed) which you need to address, but the napping will need to be nipped in the bud fairly quickly before he learns to do it for everything. If you feel he's not jumping because of pain, OK, but napping back to the lorry is not. Even if you have someone ride in front of you or you have to long-rein (I have done this on some good advice from bepositive) or lead, just get him going forward and teach him that he must respect your aids, and in turn you will do right by him and not push him beyond his limits.

This is exactly how it feels.
I think maybe it's because his over whelmed and lack confidence. I just need to build this up and work through the napping and not letting it get worst.

 

[Maesfen]

Agree totally with Dormouse.

He's a big baby and needs more time to mature slowly as he'll be growing for some years to come.

Endless (to him - and me regardless of whether it's 20 minutes or an hour) schooling is totally boring and very wearing on their limbs and minds. Take him hacking and have some fun or better still, turn him away for a couple of months to wind down. It honestly sounds as if you're asking far too much of him for the age and stage of growing he's at.

 

[tiga71]

I agree with him feeling a bit overwhelmed by all the learning he having to do.

I have a rising 7 year old and I got him in August. He had done nothing for 16 months with the lady I got him from, just a few lessons and a hack every now and then. I hacked him, lots of small hacks, took him on a few longer ones on the Downs, had a lesson, flat / jumping, once a week until December when he was turned away for 5 weeks. The break did him the world of good.

He came back in mid January ready to learn again and hadn't forgotten anything. Just refreshed and happy. I think it really helps them to just go and relax and process what they have been learning.

I took mine to a Working Equitation clinic and only did about 30 -35 minutes as after that his brain was just fried with so many new things to understand. If I had pushed him he would have got really cross and I am trying to be very careful not to do too much. Even when I want to for myself! That is hard sometimes though.

Give him a break or just hack him out. Let him consolidate what he has learned.

 

[DosyMare]

His only ridden 4 times a week. And twice is hacking and twice is schooling. He only works for 30 mins max.

 

[ihatework]

I don't think anyone can say for sure without knowing you, the horse and any history.

The correct training and management sets them up for life, I'd consider getting an experienced instructor in to help you.

30 mins 4 times a week is not a lot and it could just be that he isn't fit enough to do the clinic type stuff, they get tired mentally quite quickly too.

It could be a number of things, but if it is testing the boundary behaviour it needs sorting sooner rather than later.

 

[DosyMare]

I train with two International Grand Prix Dressage Riders.
It's just I thought it would be nice for him to have a jump now and again for funs. He seemed to love it and always ears forward and his confidence was coming on. We then had a break over winter and in his last three times out jumping this year his decided after 10 mins that he doesn't want to do it - naps and this attitude comes out of nowhere. But he can have a rest from it - it doesn't matter I just was looking for advice and I've received lots of food for thought.

 

[honetpot]

Agree totally with Dormouse.

He's a big baby and needs more time to mature slowly as he'll be growing for some years to come.

Endless (to him - and me regardless of whether it's 20 minutes or an hour) schooling is totally boring and very wearing on their limbs and minds. Take him hacking and have some fun or better still, turn him away for a couple of months to wind down. It honestly sounds as if you're asking far too much of him for the age and stage of growing he's at.

I agree totally with this. We had a maxy cob type and you see the energy drain out of him.
The trouble is once it happens its an issue, if he's a big horse and he plants I would make him stand until he gets absolutely fed up and when he walks forward reward him, deconstruct the fence so he has to walk over it. I do this with young ones so they know that even if they stop the only way is forward, even if they have to scramble over it.
I would go back to funs things he enjoys, ten minutes work then leave it for a hack.

 

[dollyanna]

My 5 yr old gelding isn't ridden yet but he does a similar thing - I take him out inhand and he is wonderful for the first 3/4 of a longer walk, then he just loses it completely, doesn't listen, walks all over the place, starts pulling etc. It is like switching a switch. I think they cope with so much and then just suddenly have had enough and lose the ability to concentrate any longer. My mare (same age) is more subtle, she lets you know she is tired but still keeps going and listening. If it were me I would have a couple of easy months of hacking/fun stuff and then come back to it, but try to stop before he gets to the tired stage and finish on a good moment rather than wait for the switch to flick.

 

[DosyMare]

The trouble is once it happens its an issue, if he's a big horse and he plants I would make him stand until he gets absolutely fed up and when he walks forward reward him, deconstruct the fence so he has to walk over it. I do this with young ones so they know that even if they stop the only way is forward, even if they have to scramble over it.

I will do this - we have taken the pole away before and asked him to walk through. But I haven't done the waiting for him to move forward and reward him.
Thanks

 

[Orangehorse]

I think there comes a time with any young horse where they find out whether or not they really have to do what the rider is asking. Not all horses will challenge, some are happy to be co-operative all the time, others with a strong will might be ready to question the rider a lot more.

Yes, I agree that he is a big baby and could well be tired and needs a break and go hacking and have fun. The important thing is the pick your time and really ask yourself if what you are asking is easy and reasonable for the horse. I agree with him having got away with the napping towards the lorry is a bad thing. It is the same old story of making it easy and enjoyable for them to do the right thing.

Maybe have a bit of a break and then try again with "always forward" in your mind!

 

[kirstyl]

Are your dressage trainers able to help you with this? If There is a problem, i think people there who can talk you through are best placed to help. Good luck - so many horses go through the testing the boundaries phase. You're not alone, you'll get through it and he sounds a lovely boy

 

[tristar]

i lunge before riding, yes its boring, but... do it gently don`t push for a lot, work up to a few circles in canter before getting on, then start to ride very slowly and gently, and learn to accept what your young horse offers, trotting and then walking allowing him to stretch down his neck and back, this is my approach to a horse like yours, this is warming up properly and giving him a chance to loosen his body and realise that the sensation of being ridden is a kind partnership where he will not rushed before he is ready to work, his structure is not ready to go out and perform a work session in half an hour, in order to progress it may take one hour including the lunging, during which you are both relaxed and taking your time to feel and understand each other, if he does`nt offer forwardness yet he will improve over time as all the working parts come into action through quiet schooling, you can ride out of the arena and go straight then back into the arena, the approach of modern dressage training with the emphasis on forwardness and speed may not help here, ultimately when straightness and balance develop from not rushing and forcing things the result is the horse being able to use himself and open up his body in such a way that forwardness and acceptance and ability to work will happen naturally, stepping back and relaxing about the whole thing helps.

 

[AmyMay]

I would imagine that as a big horse he is still fairly weak at 5. You may find that he is actually struggling to cope with what you are asking, hence he starts off ok but quickly finds himself tiring due to weak baby muscles, ligaments and bones. Horse don't mature nearly as quickly as we believe and the bigger they are the weaker and slower to mature.

I should step back a bit as he may even be growing at the moment. Just hack him quietly for a month or 2 or even give him a month off.

This absolutely 100%. You've got another quiet two years or so with him before you can really start working him.

 

[NZJenny]

I think there comes a time with any young horse where they find out whether or not they really have to do what the rider is asking. Not all horses will challenge, some are happy to be co-operative all the time, others with a strong will might be ready to question the rider a lot more.

Yes, I agree that he is a big baby and could well be tired and needs a break and go hacking and have fun. The important thing is the pick your time and really ask yourself if what you are asking is easy and reasonable for the horse. I agree with him having got away with the napping towards the lorry is a bad thing. It is the same old story of making it easy and enjoyable for them to do the right thing.

Maybe have a bit of a break and then try again with "always forward" in your mind!

I was going to say the same thing. I have started several youngsters, and they all reach a point when they push back and have a go. Teenagers!

IME there isn't a lot of logic to it - my current mare decided that going left was going to be her "thing". Ears pinned, tail swishing, kicking out, little pig roots, head shaking, you name it. So of course I drove myself nuts -back, teeth, saddle, diet etc, etc. Until she tried same on a hack one day when we didn't turn for home when she expected. Hmmm .... the next time it happened schooling, we just kept on going to the right, until she forgot about it.

Previous youngster would half rear, snort and yell - she was an endurance horse, so this would happen when out training when she thought she had had enough.

Any how's, my fix is to be very mindful of not pushing them to the point of saying "no". So if your boy was mine, I would maybe pop just a couple of jumps for fun, and leave it at that. Rather than making a formal jumping session, just maybe a couple at the end of a schooling session, or a log out hacking ....

I have always thought that the breaking in/starting under saddle was the easy bit. The next two years however, will make the horse. Sounds like you are doing an awesome job - the best bits are yet to come!

 

[ycbm]

I train with two International Grand Prix Dressage Riders.
It's just I thought it would be nice for him to have a jump now and again for funs. He seemed to love it and always ears forward and his confidence was coming on. We then had a break over winter and in his last three times out jumping this year his decided after 10 mins that he doesn't want to do it - naps and this attitude comes out of nowhere. But he can have a rest from it - it doesn't matter I just was looking for advice and I've received lots of food for thought.

IME, it isn't normal for a young horse who used to love jumping to stop loving it even going through the Kevin stage.

I would get his back x rayed and if nothing is found, go on to look for SI and/or PSD.

I hope you get to the bottom of it.

 

[ester]

I will do this - we have taken the pole away before and asked him to walk through. But I haven't done the waiting for him to move forward and reward him.
Thanks

Actually when he wants to move forwards I wouldn't let him, briefly, then I would ask him to and reward then.