7 MONTH OLD PUPPY- HELP!

[LittleLex]

Hi all,

I need some help and advice with my puppy!

90% of the time she is my angel, I love her to bits. However recently she has started pushing the boundaries. For example if she is on the sofa and I want her to get off I tell her off, she hops off but then starts barking and going to bite me and getting herself all wound up. If I tell her to lay down or sit she will do what I say but if I don't she just carries on. My mum also lives with us and gets scared when she starts and it turns into a shouting match between the 2 of them. Another way to get her to calm down is put her in another room for a few minutes just to cool off. What I want to know is will my angel puppy ever come back? and am I doing something wrong? Since we've been having problems she isn't aloud on the sofa at all and hasn't tried for a few days. After speaking to a few people the common response is its her hormones kicking in but I never remember this with my other bitch.

 

[Dobiegirl]

What breed is she? some breeds are assertive little sausages if time out works I would carry on with that.. Be aware you may be giving her mixed signals, is she allowed on the sofa some of the time and not others, you have to be consistent. Just be very firm with her and dont go shouting at her because that may be winding her up.

 

[LittleLex]

She is a working cocker spaniel so I knew I was going to have my hands full!

She used to be aloud of the sofa but since she started getting so mouthy when she was told to move, especially by my mum, we decided that she'd have an indefinite ban of sofa time. She doesn't try to get on the sofa anymore but still has mouthy outbursts.

Shouting at her definitely doesn't work! she almost needs the time out to get her head back together then she walks out like a little angel again. I would just love her outbursts to stop completely! I'd say we probably have about 3-4 a day

 

[AmyMay]

Why would you shout at her??

 

[LittleLex]

amymay as explained my mum shouts at her (I think as a reaction to being scared of her when she starts barking). Do you have any advice you can offer to stop my puppy getting mouthy in the first place? Or have you any experiences you can share?

 

[Luci07]

Is this your first working cocker? I love the breed but they are seriously high energy dogs. 2 friends have them and they need a LOT of exercise..!

 

[LittleLex]

Yes she definitely does! This is my first after owning border collies before, she made them seem easy

 

[CorvusCorax]

As you have done, just cut the sofa out altogether to remove any confusion.

Get yourself the book The Culture Clash by Jane Donaldson which teaches about bite inhibition.

You sound like a very high energy household. Dogs do not like this sort of energy and some feed off it and it makes them mental. Trust me, I know

IGNORE tantrums, speak and act slowly and clearly and if you have to be firm, be fair about it, don't lose your temper.

Also, be clear about your commands, a common mistake is for people to tell the dog to get DOWN off the sofa, when the dog is usually already in the DOWN position when it is on the sofa.

LIE DOWN is two words, one of which is totally superflous and confusing.

SIT DOWN! is two completely different commands.

Dogs normally throw tantrums when they are confused and frustrated. Dogs are usually confused and frustrated because we make them that way.

 

[Alec Swan]

........ Do you have any advice you can offer to stop my puppy getting mouthy in the first place? Or have you any experiences you can share?

I realise that the question wasn't aimed at me, but I'll butt in if I may!

Yes, there is something which you can do; the very next time that she shows any form of defiance, or she answers back, take a good hold of the loose skin around her throat, pick her up so that her front feet are off the floor, and give her a bloody good wallop. If she tries mouthing or biting you, to make you let go, then give her another one, only harder, and keep going until she stops.

Cruel? No not really, you'll be doing what any other dog in a pack would do to put her in her place. At the moment, she's got the better of you, and it's time that you turned the tables!!

I have 4 work bred cockers, 3 puppies and an adult bitch. They can be the most opinionated of dogs, and they can be sharp. The trick is to be in charge, and shouting matches, with the dog answering back, isn't the way to achieve that.

Alec.

 

[Venevidivici]

I have a Pointer puppy about a couple of months younger than yours. He is a confident and brave boy (in comparison to our previous family dogs) and has just started to push the boundaries of acceptable behaviour. He is pushed down from the sofa with a firm 'NO!' every time he gets up/tries to get up on it and if he persists,we repeat this but grab him by the scruff of his neck to deposit him on the floor! If he has something he shouldn't (kids doll/my woolly hat/slipper etc!) and won't release it,I get his scruff,hold him still and say 'DROP it!'. He is rapidly getting the message and does not like (tho he doesn't retaliate) the scruff action! He will give a tiny whine and sometimes slink off-I hope by mimicking dog behaviour (using his scruff) I'm doing it firmly but fairly and he always comes back to me happy but definitely 'told' in his demeanour (head &tail slightly down,licky tongue,slow tail wag). That is what I'm aiming for
Yours sounds like he's trying it on,attempting to elevate his pack position-am sure you'll win but it's a bit like say,napping in a horse can be-persistent,consistent,clear signals should probably sort it out but may take a while. Good luck!

 

[MurphysMinder]

Brave man Alec ! But I agree with you, imo a good shaking doesn't do any harm, I remember years ago when we had our first Heeler, she was a defiant little madam and because she was so tiny I didn't treat her as I would have done a GSD pup. Eventually I decided enough was enough so she had a couple of good shakings , from then on she decided she really ought to do as she was told, and although she never lost her character she became a far better mannered little dog.
OP what are you doing with the pup in the way of training, they have a brain that they really need to use, if she is bored she will only thing of ways to occupy herself, and you can almost guarantee it will be things you won't like. A lot of breeds do go through a stage from around 6 months on of trying it on, my Freya went from being an angel with other dogs to being really gobby at them, a few sharp lessons and at 8 months she is now okay again.

 

[AmyMay]

Jesus.....................

 

[NeverSayNever]

Also, be clear about your commands, a common mistake is for people to tell the dog to get DOWN off the sofa, when the dog is usually already in the DOWN position when it is on the sofa.

LIE DOWN is two words, one of which is totally superflous and confusing.

SIT DOWN! is two completely different commands.
.

OMG AND AMEN TO THIS ^^^^^ I sounded like a stuck record taking my classed and it absolutely INFURIATES me that people cant grasp this. it also drives me nuts when people visiting start saying down/off/sit to my dogs in the wrong context or sometimes altogether.

OP - my behaviour classes were dominated by working cockers As others have said they can be very opinionated and need clear boundaries and above all, consistency. They can also ime be difficult to motivate if they have been allowed a taste of making their own decisions, they are strong willed and independent wee blighters and their noses will overrule whatever you are telling them to do unless you ascertain some control. Consistency consistency consistency.

Amymay, why bother answering a thread with one liners without actually offering any advice?

 

[AmyMay]

Amymay, why bother answering a thread with one liners without actually offering any advice?

Well, my first response was a question.

And my second was the first thing that popped in to my head after reading Alec's post (and MM's response to it).

 

[CorvusCorax]

OMG AND AMEN TO THIS ^^^^^ I sounded like a stuck record taking my classed and it absolutely INFURIATES me that people cant grasp this. it also drives me nuts when people visiting start saying down/off/sit to my dogs in the wrong context or sometimes altogether.

My mother frequently tells my dog to 'stay'- she might as well say 'banana' because it is not part of his vocabulary and he has no idea what it means.
Also 'out' as in to leave the room or get his head out of the dishwasher when 'out' means he has to let go of something in his mouth, when he never had anything in his mouth in the first place.

 

[Big Ben]

I've read a few of Alec's comments on dog handling threads, and the advice is old fashioned, hands on and sounds rough, but guess what it works.

My only caveat is that is works if done without anger or temper, same as any animal handling.

 

[NeverSayNever]

Well, my first response was a question.

And my second was the first thing that popped in to my head after reading Alec's post (and MM's response to it).

fair do’s, a i minute ago you just replied ‘because you can’ which seemed more likely

My mother frequently tells my dog to 'stay'- she might as well say 'banana' because it is not part of his vocabulary and he has no idea what it means.
Also 'out' as in to leave the room or get his head out of the dishwasher when 'out' means he has to let go of something in his mouth, when he never had anything in his mouth in the first place.

oh i hear you cc

 

[CorvusCorax]

While it's not always wise to advocate slapping or scruffing a dog you can't see in front of you (not knowing its motivations, not knowing if it is a dog likely to come back at you, not knowing if it might ruin the dog altogether) it's just another piece of advice which the OP has the right to take or leave as she sees fit.

 

[AmyMay]

Hopefully as someone with seeming little experience, it's advice they'll leave.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Amymay, people use and advise the methods that work for them, and their dogs, there's book/internet learning and there's practical learning, what works for one dog will not work for another, which people who have more than one dog and more than one 'type' (character) of dog will come to learn over the years. I've never met two humans who had exactly the same personality or learning style and I don't see why we think dogs are any different. I for one am glad that there is a wide range of advice available on the forum, even stuff I don't agree with.

 

[Dobiegirl]

Its always a problem giving advice when you dont know the dog being referred to. I wouldnt advocate this for every breed in fact if I had done this to one of my rescue Dobes when he jumped on the sofa and I said off and he growled at me and had I grabbed him I would have set him up very nicely for biting me. Instead I went behind the sofa and tipped it up at the same time as saying off. I never had a problem again.

 

[Spudlet]

This demonstrates why it is better to get advice from a trainer than a forum. A trainer can see the dog and handler in front of them and advise accordingly - on a forum everyone gives out their pet theory and often, it is the one who simply shouts loudest who is heard. OP, I would advise you to get advice from someone who can actually see what your dog is doing and what you are doing and give you advice based on the facts.

For what it's worth (I suspect very little, but anyway), the working cockers I have had in our classes have tended towards being fairly sensitive souls who would not have dealt well with a rough approach as is being advocated by some. Of course every dog will differ which is why you need the help of someone present, in person.

 

[MurphysMinder]

amymay, you only have to look back through a few pages in AAD to see how many dogs are causing their owners problems by being totally over the top in their behaviour. Similarly, the rescues are full of dogs that owners can't cope with so give them up. I firmly believe that people are too reluctant to train firmly and if needed discipline their dogs. I have changed my training methods a lot over the years, we were only saying on a training day earlier this month that 30 years ago dogs were never given treats when training, their reward was a quick "good girl", and a pat. I use reward training now, and some clicker work, but as said above, if my dogs are naughty they get told off. They aren't exactly shivering wrecks, so I don't think it has done them any harm. Freya is trying it on with her mother quite a lot at the moment, resulting in Evie pinning her to the ground by her throat and not letting go until Freya has accepted that she really shouldn't knock mummy endways.
I do take CCs point about scruffing/shaking not working for every dog, but it has certainly worked for mine.

Ets. Spudlet, I agree it is best to get advice from a trainer who can see the dog, but it has to be the right trainer. It horrifies me how many trainers there are about who can only train biddable dogs, and if dogs cause any probems they are either asked to leave a class, or are basically ignored.

 

[AmyMay]

I agree CC. However scruffing is for the experienced handler only - and a questionable method for the puppy described.

I'm horrified actually that it would be suggested.

 

[AmyMay]

MM, 30 years experience compared to the owners what? A few.....

There's a massive difference.

This owner needs a good training class, nothing more.

 

[Dobiegirl]

I completely agree MM and its just not dogs dare I say it children as well, reward the good behaviour and ignore the bad, this sounds like how I got 2 of my Dobes. Dogs are not stupid, Pip runs rings around my daughter but wouldnt try it with me and its not because I beat her but she has to behave with me.

 

[Venevidivici]

Uh oh..is what I have done to my pup really wrong in most of your opinions?? I am genuinely surprised(I don't confess to be any kind of an expert at all-have just had my own dogs and dogs in the family since I was a kid,30years ago) but it just seemed natural to me that when he ignored my quite plain command (and then the same repeated louder&more firmly) that I removed him from the sofa by his scruff(he doesn't wear a collar all the time in the house)as it was the best way to move him with one hand and in my other example,to lift him slightly up off whatever forbidden booty he was crouched over. :-/ He never responded aggressively(no growl or attempt to bite) rather he froze a bit,like 'Oh cr*p. Pushed it too far!' I feel like some monster owner now and there was I thinking he's coming along great! I was merely telling the OP what worked for me and wanted to reassure her that she wasn't alone in her 'angel' pup turning into a bit of a gobby bruiser...'tis the same with dogs,horses,kids...

 

[MurphysMinder]

Of course you're not a monster owner (well not in my view anyway), your lad showed the reaction mine have all done , and Freya does to her mum. Its worked for your pup and that is the end result everyone wants surely.

 

[Clodagh]

I have well behaved horses, dogs and kids. Set firm boundaries and stick to them. Like Alec I am in favour of discipline and surely God gave dogs a scruff so you have something to grab? A scruff hold to remove or discipline a dog is better than a clout. I haven't scruffed the kids yet - they haven't needed it - but horses are expected to move 'Over' or 'Back' a soon as I say it and I have been known to pinch a lump of skin on their neck if they don't budge.

Our dogs are never allowed on the sofa or furniture but I always expect instant obedience from them whatever I am asking. IMO fluffy ownership causes endless problems, we are in charge not them. OP - that isn't all aimed at you. I would say that with any animal and child if you lose your temper/shout you have lost the argument. Keep calm and be assertive.

 

[Alec Swan]

MM, 30 years experience compared to the owners what? A few.....

There's a massive difference.

This owner needs a good training class, nothing more.

amymay, I understand your doubts, really I do, but how do you think that a "Training Class" will help with the management of a wilful puppy who's behaviour, whilst in the home, isn't acceptable?

Horse and cart springs to mind. I'd suggest that when the puppy has learned some manners, and understands its place within the home, then that may be the time for training classes.

Puppies that learn how to be compliant from an early age, tend not to challenge later on in life, but when they do, they need to acquire the knack of listening, when they're spoken too.

These are just my views, and I don't expect you to agree with me!!

Alec.