80 Years of Campaigning - What a waste of time

[Hercules]

The fact of the matter is that Farmers and Landowners want and need foxes to be culled. DEFRA also agree with these sentiments, hence the reason that culling of foxes remains legal.

As a result of bigotry and ignorance, they and LACS as a result of their pursuance of the Hunting Act, deem it more acceptable to inflict a lingering death on an animal which has little or no chance of escape than the alternative of either escape or a quick death.

And they claim to be animal lovers?! They must be really proud of themselves. Case closed.

 

[Paul T]

You keep presenting your simplistic views as though they are established fact. Some farmers and landowners may want foxes killed but it is not fact that they need to be killed.

Stop being so silly and distorting virtually everything to suit your own ends.

 

[Hercules]

You have been reading too much Walt Disney.

If there was no need for foxes to be killed, why would the vast majority of farmers and landowners want them killed (even if they do not support hunting)?

Instead of gobbing off on the computer, how about going outside, getting some fresh air and gaining some experience of the real world.

 

[Paul T]

You ask why would farmers want foxes killed.

"[1.4.1.6.3 ]...farmers appear to over-estimate the density of foxes by 5-18 times, possibly as a consequence of a single litter of cubs being split, giving the misleading appearance of two litters instead of one or because the same litter of cubs has been moved from one den to another." White et al research report commissioned by Burns Inquiry.

"[5.7] Landholder’s perceptions of effectiveness and cost-efficiency may not be accurate. For example, farmers overestimate foxhunting bags by as much as 10-fold.
Commonly used measures of effectiveness (e.g. numbers of animals culled) and efficiency (e.g. financial outlay required to kill one animal) can be very misleading because they do not take into account the density of the quarry. Nonetheless, these measures are components of any estimate of effectiveness and efficiency." MacDonald et al research report commissioned by Burns Inquiry.



"[1.4.3] Despite the widespread belief that foxes are serious predators of livestock, there is evidence to suggest that their importance is generally over-estimated and that, in fact, they are responsible for only a minor percentage of losses and that they are substantially less important than other forms of mortality..." White et al research report commissioned by Burns Inquiry.

"[2.1.1.b]... change in a species’ abundance will not necessarily translate into a pro rata change in damage.
[2.1.1.c]... Whether or not a species really causes the damage it is accused of is central to the validity of any control programme. If the species is not, in fact, the cause of the damage, then a programme to control its population will be misplaced at best, and counterproductive at worst, as resources will be directed away from the real source of the problem." MacDonald et al research report commissioned by Burns Inquiry.

It seems most are pig-ignorant.

 

[Hercules]

Pig ignorant?

Is that because many of them have lived on the same farm for centuries, know their land and the 'ways of the countryside' like the back of their hand and have experienced foxes killing their livestock?

Or is it that they have not read a report by a few academics whose only experience of the countryside was when they ventured out from behind their computers for half a day to compile the said report.

As you can see from the report, a lot of it is not based on fact and is merely speculation (phrases such as : MAY not be accurate, MAY overestimate, POSSIBLY as a consequence, NOT necessarily)

Experience is the key. I suggest that you get some.

 

[Paul T]

It doesn't surprise me you're anti science and pro woolly-thinking mumbo-jumbo. It also doesn't surprise me that you confuse experience with ignorance.

 

[Hercules]

I hold a Master of Science Degree. However, an education has taught me to gain an opinion based on experience and not sentiment, you mong.

 

[LACS]

"However, an education has taught me to gain an opinion based on experience and not sentiment, you mong."

Haha, the irony!

 

[Paul T]

To think they have the nerve to criticise the quality of higher education today when the deficiencies of yesteryear are plain for all to see.

 

[Fairynuff]

Im getting tired of saying this every few months but, I will say it again.Hey ho-my uncle and cousins sheep farm in Stirlingshire. All ewes are on the Campsies(hills and moor) and are blackface or welsh mule crosses.All lamb out unless the weather is horrific and are brought down nearer the farm. Foxes exist and a few lambs are lost to them but, the majority of losses are to the weather as no sheep would naturally lamb in Feb and are now genetically required to do so. Almost all of the still born or weak lambs die due to other causes and are THEN scavanged by the fox.There is no hunt near Glenhead Farm nor was there ever and my family has always been in control of the situation. Stray dogs or roaming dogs cause far more trouble and are shot on sight with no questions asked-this also includes any border collie who thinks he has the right to work sheep on his own.The fox is not the number one cause of lamb loss, at least where I grew up. Ive never heard of a fox taking a calf, maybe due to the fact that my uncles are hill cattle and dont take crap from anyone. Sorry, I can not believe in the legend of the bloodthirsty fox, at least not 100%. I think its an excuse to allay guilt feelings in most of the pros and make it okay to take part in a very enjoyable day out with a very unfair end for many a fox. M.

 

[wurzel]

It is simplistic.

I need to kill them.

Shall I follow DEFRA's guidelines or yours?

 

[wurzel]

"It seems most are pig-ignorant."

Of course most farmers are pig ignorant.

Good argument.

What do you do for a living?

 

[allijudd]

Of course we are pig ignorant, arnt many pig farmers left! Im ignorant about pigs because I grow crops and look after horses! LOL

 

[wurzel]

I am ignorant of pigs.

Plus most arable.

I am a genious with sheep mind !!

hey that reminds me "!!!

i haven't heard that old "better animal husbandry" chestnut from the antis recently !!!

Usually involves about 678 miles of electric fencing on the farm !!

 

[allijudd]

You are a better man than me Tom, I cant stand sheep. When they are born they spend the next 4 weeks trying to hang themselves in netting, jumping ditches.. missing and breaking their necks... and my favourite baiting the fox to have a fight and lose!! They just dont want to live in my experience... but I was on a Welsh sheep farm at the time.LOL

 

[wurzel]

Thanks, but i disagree.

Nothing cuddlier than a Exmoor Horn !!!

 

[allijudd]

Tom, I am sure the exmoors are great sheep, but the welsh just wanted to die.
BTW although i am an "on the fence" pro, I am totally with you where the antis are concerned on here, their arguments are at best flimsy.

 

[wurzel]

"I am sure the exmoors are great sheep, but the welsh just wanted to die."

Actually you are right. I don't know why I do it !! Probably because I will be one of the last.


You are right the antis are hopeless..


But they are quite fun.

I just don't think they have actually experienced much...

 

[allijudd]

They have all the qualifications of NIMBY's

 

[Paul T]

No you don't need to kill them at all.

 

[Paul T]

"Nothing cuddlier than a Exmoor Horn !!! "

Thought as much.

 

[wurzel]

"No you don't need to kill them at all."

Yes I do.

And I will.

They eat my lambs.

You can believe what you want but it ain't going to change this fact.