9 yr old horse coffin joint problems prognosis poor ...thoughts?

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dorrisworris

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This is a bit of long story but i really need peoples thought on what to do as im struggling at min with the right thing to do. So two years ago i bought 'my horse of a lifetime ' you know the sort the type of horse you have always wanted that you take out several loans to get thinking well he will be with me a long time so its worth it ....I got 5 star vetting which he passed, anyway few months in he seemed off, struggling to keep forward and generally grumpy felt stiff on one rein then the next day stiff on the other ...people said he was fine didnt look lame ect so couple months later he went lame . Got vet out went for lameness work up ect which they decided it was palmer heel pain...had xrays which were fine but recommended mri scan . He went for mri scan and it showed inflammation of coffin joints and minor ossification of the joint (not enough that it was visable on xray which he had previously)and a bit of tendonitis of ddft . They recommended box rest , wedged pads and eggbars , steroid injections ....he had all this and after about 5 months he was sound 'ish' had him in light work ( only bit of hacking and a couple schooling sessions a week) and he went lame again but worse than first time . Vet was convniced he must have done soft tissue damage to his foot and said he needed another mri scan ! he was insured but we had reached the limit bar 500 quid so i said is it really the best use of the last of insurance money to have another mri at £1500 and could we not do IRAP therapy instead. She said IRAP wasnt suitable for his condition and that yes he needed an mri. So i agreed and he went for another mri which cost me £1000 of my own money. Results said no soft tissue damage and that if steroids wernt working then swap to anabolic steroids or IRAP ! They also said that if he didnt respond to this that his future soundness was unlikely. So i have no money left for the IRAP since my vets wasted it on the mri and i have a lame horse thats only 9 year old . I cant afford to keep 2 horses and hes not the sort that could just be turned away hes a big mardy warmblood who gets mudfever with a drop of rain and has massive reactions to flybites and likes injuring himself in the safest paddock you could find . I love him to bits but am at a loss as what to do ..........help x
 
Hi, sadly an all to familiar story to my ears. If I ever buy another horse, it will be this, a quality dressage horse who has a navicular diagnosis and is therefore within my budget.

That is how confident I am that your horse can be fixed, but it needs expert advice from a barefoot expert.

Sorry your horse is in this position.
 
Rockleyfarm.blogspot.com will tell you what you need to know to start with.
 
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As already suggested by Andalucian barefoot is the way forward for this horse, the treatment so far with wedges/ shoes has not helped, it has covered up some of the symptoms rather than helping fix the root cause which has continued to cause pain, I agree your vet did waste your money the question you should have asked was "what difference will it make to the treatment plan" and the reply is likely to have been no difference but they do like to use these diagnostics so they can see the full picture rather than make judgement calls based on experience and what the horse in front of them shows clinically.
His primary issue probably is caused by palmar heel pain, not using or developing a good supportive heel, which is nearly impossible in remedial shoes, will be restricting his ability to heal himself therefore any recommended treatment is likely to fail long term.

I am no expert but suggest looking at the work they do at Rockley farm, sending them an email for advice would be my first step now.
 
Can i ask Andalucian what your reasons are for thinking barefoot is the answer. The horse has never been used for dressage and the diagnosis was not navic as the mri showed no issue with the navicular bone itself although i appreciate all these parts are interconnected. I have spoke to several farriers about barefoot and all have laughed in my face saying 'barefoot experts' is just another word for unqualified farriers that prey on the hopes of desperate horse owners ! not my words ...same opinion from vets can all the people with qualifications be wrong and if this is the answer then why do vets avoid it like the plague? he does have flat feet and a low heel he is just in normal shoes now and tbh the 'therapeutic' shoes made no difference to him anyway i think it was the steroids that brought him sound for couple months. The equine hospital have just recommended he stay in normal shoes ...
 
ycbm said:
Rockleyfarm.blogspot.com will tell you what you need to know to start with.
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This ^^

A few relevant quotes from the blog (I'm sure Nic wouldn't mind).

"I'll preface this post by making it clear that when I use the term "navicular" its a shorthand for any hoof problem which has blocked to the caudal hoof - ie where the horse has come sound, or significantly sounder, following a block of the palmar digital nerve. "Navicular" in this post refers not only to damage identified by bone changes on x-ray but also deep digital flexor tendon, collateral ligament or other soft tissue damage. Its not technically "correct" but its a lot shorter than pasting this whole paragraph every time ;-)"

"My experience with remedial shoes is that the horse improves for a short period but over the medium and long term the lameness recurs and worsens as the palmar hoof deteriorates."

My advice would be to have a read of this: http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.ie/2011/10/comparing-heel-first-and-toe-first.html and then ideally take a video of your horse, slow it down and see how his feet land.

As to "barefoot experts" being unqualified farriers, some of them are in fact qualified farriers and others (such as Nic) concentrate on the diet and environment and prefer to do little to no trimming, so that is clearly nonsense. Obviously not all barefoot trimmers are good, it is a fairly unregulated industry, but they exist because sadly enlightened farriers and vets are very much in the minority. A final quote from Nic's blog: "Remember, amateurs built the Ark; professionals built the Titanic."
 
It is not only Andalucian that thinks barefoot is the way forward, you have only had 3 replies and we all suggest the same.

Not all vets or farriers are opposed to barefoot rehab, many are far more open minded fortunately, if the horse has flat feet, thin soles and low heels then taking the shoes off can make a huge difference, if done before the feet are causing real issues then so much the better.
The tb in my yard had dreadful feet when he came although his lameness was not directly caused by his feet they certainly were not helping matters, he had previously had his coffin joints injected but when he came here he had done a tendon, he did all of his rehab without shoes, went back into racing and had shoes on for the season, they came off when he retired and started retraining and have just gone back on 2 years later so he can wear studs for competing, he now has heels, frogs, tough soles and his feet are not flat which must give him a better chance of continuing to remain sound in his new life out of racing.

A link to a forum members post about her horse that is now barefoot and I think doing very well and to the blog on the Rockley site where a vet has sent an email about the benefits of self trimming, I think more vets will become interested as time goes on but in many ways they are not going to promote it as a treatment due to the fact that it will not bring in any money to their practices, hence "avoiding it like the plague", many horses that go barefoot are doing so as the last resort after conventional treatment has failed.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?709374-Self-trimming-rehab-advice-required

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/one-vets-view-of-self-trimming-horse.html?spref=fb
 
Honestly, in your shoes (excuse the pun!) I would definitely give barefoot a go.

Done correctly, it can be life changing for the horse (and owner!).

You've nothing to lose ;)
 
dorrisworris said:
Can i ask Andalucian what your reasons are for thinking barefoot is the answer. The horse has never been used for dressage and the diagnosis was not navic as the mri showed no issue with the navicular bone itself although i appreciate all these parts are interconnected. I have spoke to several farriers about barefoot and all have laughed in my face saying 'barefoot experts' is just another word for unqualified farriers that prey on the hopes of desperate horse owners ! not my words ...same opinion from vets can all the people with qualifications be wrong and if this is the answer then why do vets avoid it like the plague? he does have flat feet and a low heel he is just in normal shoes now and tbh the 'therapeutic' shoes made no difference to him anyway i think it was the steroids that brought him sound for couple months. The equine hospital have just recommended he stay in normal shoes ...
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Well you didn't do any of the recommended reading before you wrote this, did you?

You are well out of date, I'm afraid. 'Navicular' lameness is only very, very rarely related to the condition of the navicular bone. It is almost always related to tendon or ligament damage or joint inflammation. Just like your horse.

If you want your horse to return to work you've got about five times as great a chance if you get the shoes off than if you carry on with the advice you are currently being given by closed minded professionals.

Vets and farriers don't 'avoid it like the plague' Horses that go to Rockley have to be referred there by a vet, and many have the support of their farrier too. Only a fool would ignore the stunning results that barefoot rehab achieves compared to the recovery rate using conventional medication and shoeing.
 
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He's 9. What have you got to lose apart from a few more months (between 6 and 9, while he grows a new hoof)? Please, please read Nic Barker's blog, if nothing else.

Barefoot could, in all likelihood, be the solution. The success rate is more than considerable. And of course *some* conventional farriers will tell you it won't work - you'd be doing them out of a job, really.

ycbm, sheep, ester, FfionWinnie, Andalucian, Stencilface, be positive, laura_nash, me... (apologies to those I've left off)... we are not 'unqualified farriers that prey on the hopes of desperate horse owners'. Actually, I have been doing this for 118 days now, and in that time pony has not seen one trimmer. She's not needed to. Although he's coming out at the weekend just to make sure we're okay.

We're not all lentil knitters, either, as far as I know. Granted, there are a few barefoot enthusiasts I could quite happily throttle, but they are the ones who go 'my horse's leg is falling off but I won't call a vet because he'll give my horse a nasty injection to make the pain go away and it will make him footy' aka 'I don't have money/insurance for a vet'. But they wouldn't dare venture on here where common sense prevails.

Most of us have gone the barefoot route because we've woken up and realised conventional shoeing/remedial farriery is not working. And most of us have endured a bit of a journey to get there, but we have sound horses now. Because we've taken the shoes off, fed appropriately and put in the work to help the transition and now the hoof is doing its job. Seriously, my horse had heel pain in both back feet - possibly a compromise in the hoof infratructure - and something going on in the off fore. 4 months on, pretty much sound horse. Went from standing like this: \ / (camped under) and lame, to standing like this: | | with more shoulder extension and hock flexion than I've ever seen her have. She's no spring chicken, either.

It doesn't work for everyone, but I think that it's very much worth a try. And find a more sympathetic vet. Talk to Nic at Rockley. If you love the horse that much, you'd try it, I'm sure.
 
pmsl at lentil knitters. Yes the evangelical ones that seem to think it is some sort of panacea do my nut :p.

However OP you need to do some research and decide what is best for your horse, there is no issue if one way doesn't work, going back to the alternative at a later date. And all of those of us listed only say it's good because we have done it, for a range of diagnoses and it has worked.

I had a pony that had under run heels, flat pedal bones and a diagnosis of coffin joint DJD on one front. Slow mo footage taken later would suggest some likely collateral ligament damage on the lame side as his landing was noticeably different between the lame and sound foot.
To start with the vet made the treatment sound quite simple - steroid injection and bar shoeing to get the heels back and improving breakover and after 2 shoeing cycles the hooves looked much better, anyone including the vet would be happy with them.
But the trouble was, for the horse they weren't any more functional, he was still lame whenever we started to introduce trotting to the work and I wasn't happy to carry on further down that route as clearly not improving. (and when I started it it was with a time frame for allowing it to work). - I rather think you are at that point now.
So the shoes came off 4 years ago, and he hasn't taken a lame step on that bad foot since and is still hunting at 23.

It is still a big step as an owner, though although most vets won't suggest it if you suggest it to them plenty you will find do agree that it is a useful thing to do, just that you will have to be patient (they are keen to get horses right asap, regardless of the longevity of the improvement at times). Still now I am amazed what changes they can make to their feet themselves and make adjustments for other things going on higher up. You've spent all the insurance money anyway, nothing has worked, time to think a little outside of the box.

Some farriers are great at it, others not so much. I think as an owner doing it on your own at home is fine but that you will appreciated someone else there who believes in it as a concept and can advise you if things get a bit tricky without saying to put shoes back on. - I had a trimmer for a couple of years and at times she was invaluable for support as much as anything else.
 
dorrisworris said:
Can i ask Andalucian what your reasons are for thinking barefoot is the answer. The horse has never been used for dressage and the diagnosis was not navic as the mri showed no issue with the navicular bone itself although i appreciate all these parts are interconnected. I have spoke to several farriers about barefoot and all have laughed in my face saying 'barefoot experts' is just another word for unqualified farriers that prey on the hopes of desperate horse owners ! not my words ...same opinion from vets can all the people with qualifications be wrong and if this is the answer then why do vets avoid it like the plague? he does have flat feet and a low heel he is just in normal shoes now and tbh the 'therapeutic' shoes made no difference to him anyway i think it was the steroids that brought him sound for couple months. The equine hospital have just recommended he stay in normal shoes ...
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All the people with qualifications that have treated your horse for the last two years have not been terribly successful in doing anything other than maxing out your insurance. Perhaps its time to do a little research yourself.

There are not very many statistics out there comparing the outcomes of remedial shoeing versus barefoot however they are out there on the internet if you look and despite small sample sizes the difference in outcomes is quite amazing. That's the plus side of barefoot, a much better chance of long term recovery to a level of performance as high or higher than before.

The downside is that it can be flipping hard work and you have to be committed to putting the time and effort in or you wont succeed (though perhaps you will be one of the lucky few whose horse walks away rock crunching from the outset).

Anyway best advice is to do the research and make your own mind up!
 
Quite, it is not my experience that all vets avoid it like the plague, many are very pro it, those that aren't usually have issues with it being outside of their pot of tricks/area of expertise.

I chatted to my farrier about it, he just said there were other things he would like to try but if I wanted to he suggested a trimmer he knew because he admitted he didn't know enough about getting a lame horse sound barefoot.

When the 'medical' solution isn't working I think it is actually a great relief we have something else to go to and people that have spent their time learning, rehabbing horses, seeing what works that are happy to dissipate that knowledge. Yes a lot of it is received wisdom, no there aren't really the research papers to back it up (though there isn't for bar shoes etc either) and I am not the only scientist on this thread that would love for their to be much more research behind this but we had to accept that there wasn't and run our own n=1 experiments. But even with the lack of that nice peer reviewed research it is hard to deny the logic that allowing a horse to use all areas of the hoof allows the soft tissue to function as it should with all the other bits and support any other problematic boney bits in the hoof.

So we had reverse rotated pedal bones, which made the hooves bull nosed in profile, we could have artificially altered the angle with wedges (though the vet very against that due to crushing the heel tubules more long term).
Instead the shoes came off, the horse was able to use the back of his hoof properly, the digital cushion regenerated and grew and the pedal bones went back to where the should be.. . .
 
It also doesn't need to be forever. My big ginger pony had absolutely terrible feet and wasnt sound even in shoes. I never went down the route of investigations, I just took the shoes off and rehabbed him. He had 18 months out of shoes and his previous fabulous loaner, now owner has him shod now. His feet are fantastic, twice the size and healthy. Hes sound and going better than anyone ever believed was possible. Not bad going for a lame old crock :)

He would never have gotten to that point without the time out of shoes, he'd have been PTS within months if I hadnt taken him on, and now hes sound and happy
 
I must say I feel a bit upset reading the thread as i came asking for opinions but I feel like people are insinuating that I ' havnt done my research ' iv done nothing but read up about all conditions relating to the foot and treatments including barefoot and the website you mentioned about the rehab . I love this horse and i would of spent thousands trying to fix him following advice of people I thought knew better . I'm not stupid and understand about navicular syndrome and the soft tissue relating to it ect and you are right I have nothing else to lose in trying barefoot which I will have a go at but I have no support for it from any of the people I have been dealing with in his treatment . I'm in wigan so does anyone know of any decent trimmers up this way as I don't really want to send him away as he been through enough upheaval already being poked n prodded . Iv tried to do what I thought was best for him and will continue to do so . I only asked about the reasons for suggesting barefoot as I have researched it but there is little evidence iv found other than peoples own website plumping their success stories . I would love my horse to be able to go barefoot he was without for a couple of weeks after mri scan and dunno what was going on but all the back of his front legs swelled up no idea what that was about ...
 
Sweetheart, no one is insinuating anything.

We may have come across a bit brusque in places, but I think that is just a) the written word, and b) we were a bit defensive about your previous responses. Let's put it behind us and see what we can do to help.

Front legs swelling up - happened to mine, too. I put it down to her feet 'waking up' and her not having enough movement (she is stabled at night). Her feet were very flat and she was certainly not one of those that could step straight out of shoes.

If you are serious about this barefoot try out, then that's great. We will all help you. Everyone on here who has done the barefoot rehab has so generously given their time and experience to others and we've all benefitted. It's a fabulous port of support.

If you are going to go the barefoot route, then here are a few pointers. Others, I'm sure, will add in the bits I've missed off.

1 Acquire a thick skin. People don't see the benefits at first and can be terribly rude and abrasive about it. Ask around if there's a barefoot friendly vet in your area. You might be surprised. Alternatively, be open with your vet - tell him that you and he both agree the wedges aren't working and you aren't ready to write the horse off yet so you are going to try without the shoes. Nic Barker is not just someone with a website plumping her success stories, she runs a 3 month intensive rehab programme to which horses are referred by vets. In many instances, insurance pays. However, you aren't sending him away, you are going to do it at home with help and support.

2 Learn patience - my God, this is the hardest thing I have had to do. I've only been at this 4 months, and the first 3.5 were the most frustrating, cursed times ever. I have cried, I have shouted, I have screamed, I have wanted to call the farrier and say put the bloody shoes back on. The only thing that has kept me going is the thought that if she's lame without shoes, she'll be lame in them. You'll need 9 months of patience, at least. That's how long it takes to grow a new hoof capsule.

3 Good feet come from within. Start feeding right, from now. You'll need to assess how much sugar and starch he's getting, and then minimise it. I used to feed Fast Fibre but read somewhere that the soya oil it contains isn't good for joints with arthritic changes (not sure how much of that is real, but then I'm a scientist and sceptic and most of all, desperate). My circumstances are that she's a very good doer, and is in at night. This means soaking her haylage and stripping out every ounce of goodness, and muzzling during the day, so I need to put all the mins and vits necessary for growing decent hooves back in. She now has speedi-beet and half a mug of micronised linseed to stick the mins and vits in. I've done some research as economy is important, too. Low iron, high copper, magnesium and zinc are essential hoof building tools. Equimins Hoofmender 75 has comparable copper and Zinc to Progressive Earth's Pro Hoof, and is £20 as opposed to £33. The 75 refers to biotin which, in my mind, is not as essential as everyone makes out. I wrote about it here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1384098481808753/permalink/1724069304478334/ Other sources are Forage Plus, and, believe it or not, Mole Valley's own Vit's and Min's - although their apostrophe use makes me cringe so I tend not to buy it on principle.

4 When the farrier takes the shoes off, don't let him trim the frog. And use this time to measure up for some boots. You might need them from the off. https://www.hoofbootique.co.uk/help (as is Liz on the end of the hoofboutique email) is an invaluable source of information, and you don't have to shell out a fortune, you can join a few buy, sell swap hoofboots on FB. If I had my time again, I would have chucked her out with hoofboots and pads on for the first 2 weeks - she was so, so sore. I wouldn't have started the walk work until after this.

5 Go for a walk. Seriously. You are going to need the smooth tarmac for rehab, so you'll need to know where it is. You will need to start walking in hand on it. 5 minutes for the first 3 days, then 7 minutes, then 10 minutes. By the end of 6 weeks you should be up to 45 minutes of walking on smooth tarmac. If he's coping well and is sound, you could start gentle hacking with boots over varying terrain. Mine was still lame at this stage so we just kept to the in hand walking and ensuring as much turn out as possible. I varied the surfaces by long reining around the fields and in the school.

6 There will be times when he's really sore, especially at the beginning. Don't be afraid to bute up - yes, it might affect the hoof growth, but would you rather he was in agony? :)

7 Remember the patience. You'll probably cry at 6 -8 weeks. And then again at 12 weeks. Don't be afraid to take a step back. Just because he can walk in hand on tarmac for 45 mins doesn't mean he can carry you that distance - 20 mins with a weight on is probably all he needs (yes, I learned the hard way). And also remember that school surfaces can be incredibly uncomfortable, too. Mine couldn't cope to start off with. I stupidly tried to ride her in there a couple of days after taking her shoes off - this was the point at which I realised she was far more lame than she was letting on.

8 Flare, to start off with, is good. It's the way the horse deals with mechanical imbalances. Find a trimmer who is not going to tell you to trim every 10 days and will leave flare and bars alone - you are rehabbing, he doesn't need to contend with other imbalances. http://www.barefoothorse.info/find-barefoot-trimmer/

9. Patience...

10. We're here if you need us.
 
So if you've done your research you will also have found that there is also very little science to prove long term beneficial effects of the standard veterinary approach too. In fact if someone were to collate the examples on those websites of people extolling those successes you would probably be hitting higher numbers these days.

You seem to have missed the point that we have all been where you are now, and plenty have had unhelpful professionals, plenty have also gone and found themselves a new vet/hoof professional. - We are also telling you about our success stories with no reason to promote it as an option whatsoever.

The reason people say you have do your research is because it is hard work to do something that those around you will be sceptical about and you have to have a lot of patience. You have to have a certain amount of belief that you are doing the right thing for your horse and however much other people tell you that it really is only a decision you can make for yourself.

Talk to people.
Nic at Rockley is lovely, I e-mailed her twice once before I put bar shoes on, once when they came off and she gave me a trimmer recommendation who had just finished the UKNCHP course. I also spoke to another couple of trimmers and went with the one who I felt comfortable and confident with.
Barefoot approach to whole horse health on facebook is a lovely, non-evangelical group run by a trimmer who used to post on here a fair bit and knows her stuff (Lucy Priory) she also has a good blog that is worth a read.

We have had several horses off this forum go to rockley, all are better when they came back than when they went. I am not going to pretend it is some magic wand and I don't think they are all 100% sound and rock crunching when they go home but they are all better than when they went mostly after standard veterinary interventions had been used. Many have a 'blip' once they get home to a slightly less regimented/controlled regime before things settle down again. Search pines of rome's posts on here, her horse was particularly broke but came sound with Lucy's help even though he needed booting in the field to keep him comfortable to start with.

And that is another reason that you have to be confident in your decision. At times your horse might feel his feet more than most would like. - they often get worse about the 6 week mark and need some help either with bute or booting as the hoof seems to wake up a bit more to sensation.

I also looked at it this way, if my horse was lame and not improved with veterinary intervention, he was retiring, if he was retiring I didn't really want him to have to retire in shoes so they were coming off anyway. But that we would try and do it the 'right' way with lots of short road walks and increasing etc and see what happened. If it didn't work nothing lost he would retire, if it did work than hallelujah - and it has worked better than I ever could have hoped and wished for which is why I will try and encourage others to consider it and spend far too much of my life doing so, for their and their owners sakes. While still being realistic about the issues etc. We don't sit her and type out reems of info to try and upset people, we do it to try and help and in the knowledge that it worked for us, and has worked for many others on this forum and elsewhere, but you have to want to do it.

Another place for good info/poss trimmer recommendations is http://phoenixhorse.myfastforum.org/

Trimmer bodies - they all work slightly differently but equally each individual trimmer is slightly different. We find a less is more option has always suited best and been led by the horse. Don't touch his bars he goes footy and will lose them when he doesn't need them any more. Don't try and improve his heels he will go footy and it won't make any difference anyway. - we only ever tried these things once, they are what you would have done in an ideal world but the horse said no so they weren't done again. To this day if Frank starts shedding his frogs his bars over grow. Once the frog has sorted itself they fall off. If you start that journey you will be constantly surprised at what they can manage. Have you seen any of Alexhyde's recent posts of her mares fascinating feet?

so yes back to trimmer bodies, all will have their requirements for qualification on their websites, what ever others say they are not a 2 day course! And some people are dual qualified as were/are farriers too.
UKNCHP
EPAUK
AANHCP
 
Just to add there is a difference between flare and supportive deviation. With the latter there is not stretch in the white line.

We have one wonky foot, it is the one with hock arthritis- you can tell it sticks out a bit on the left side/the bar is very different on that side too
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Thanks i do appreciate the time you have all taken to write out extensive replies i think im just feeling a bit down and oversensitive ! you are right the research show little benefit to therapeutic shoes either and incidentally the equine hospital said he required no remidial farriery now it was just a case of if steroids dont help then not much help. I would like to try keep my farrier maybe a could pretend the shoes are coming of prior to retirement to save any conversations that arnt helpful lol would they need to be trimmed any special way ...my farrier if pretty good im just wondering if i tell him the shoes are coming off for retirement purposes that the trim may be neglected? whilst his shoes were of for the couple of weeks when he had mri i took photos maybe you folks could see what you think ?
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Oooh pics, :D I wasn't sure whether to ask ;)

Well I don't think they are a bad set of feet :) Lots of potential ;)
you can see where the toe has been 'dumped' in an attempt to shorten it in both sets of pics, perhaps clearer in the unshod pic. Heels aren't great but not horrendous, frog is a nice place to start, you can see a bump in the hairline at the quarters- mirrored by the 'waves'/growth lines in the hoof. Suggesting that there is more pressure there than ideal- some horses when bare actually generate a slight curve out ground level there. Can't quite see enough of the back of the hoof on the solar shots but it looks like the heel bulbs aren't too pinched in and atrophied.

Re farrier, tell him you are going to give him field rest and see if Dr Green will help, this is only stretching the truth slightly, if he has magically come sound and then you have him back in work then ;) . Ideally you want him just to take shoes off, no trimming as they need that extra hoof wall length if there is any in the first instance.

You will likely find that a new angle of growth will come down which is tighter at the top which in turn will shorten the toe so that that toe dumping wouldn't be required. The heels will also move back a bit and the whole back of the foot will beef up/frog/digital cushion etc.

This was our new angle at 14 weeks
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So assuming you might bite the bullet (and yes, it is a big step) do some investigating of local trimmers first, have a chat with them, see what you think, ask how they trim, are they to a certain extend happy to let the hoof do its own thing. - We can't completely let Frank's do that because of the way he moves, wears unevenly and puts his breakover on one side an extends it but in theory we aren't going to make his feet look perfect, function over form every time.

Once you think you have some support on board, shoes come off, not trimming start 5 mins road walking a day. Increase this slowly (only every week or so) and if the horse goes footy go back a step. Road is great for conditioning and lightly trimming feet in the first instances (although at home they really annoyingly resurfaced with chips which wasn't so great :p, but thought it a little mad to go sweep the road before we went out ;) ). I can only tell you what I did, I took longer than many, the pony was 19 I figured our only chance ;) so best try to get it right :p. We did straight lines and no circles for a long time, so all work was on road or grass (we had no school anyway but I wouldn't have used it at that point). Shoes came off April, we cantered in the september, started some light circles in the october and did a dressage test in the november.

Now other things, boots. There are a plethora of them now if you need them, there is bound to be something that suits and we have several lovely people running online shops who will advise if you send them hoof photos with a tape measure. Some will also hire before you buy. You might not need them, we did as we upped the work I still did some bootless conditioning but his feet were very flat so he needed some help and he wore them a lot for 6 months. Then barely at all.

One more, physiotherapy - horses transitioning will have periods when they are a bit sore and even if they don't they will be using themselves differently. Having a good physio/bodyworker on board will help a lot.

Did we mention patience? I was so desperate to know if it was going to work and if I was going to have my boy back again, still had to wait and see though but it was worth it, every bit of it was worth it.

Anything else/queries etc do shout :)
 
Fantastic effort in all these replies, you're fab.

I wrote a long reply, lost it, before posting arrrrgh.

Suffice to say Dorris, I've lost a dear horse through following vets advice, after a similar diagnosis as yours. I know own (and have been XC schooling this morning) on two 21 year old navicular survivors whom I took barefoot at 10 years old.

Your photos look very promising.

The reason I'd urge a specialist is the advice on what to feed, how to rehabilitate the foot in the transition period. It's a delicate time and guidance is needed. Internet advice is very helpful, but physically seeing the horse in it's environment is vital for accurate advice.

Good luck.
 
Wow im learning a lot here :) thats really interesting looking at that last picture you have posted as you can clearly see the new angle coming down which will result in the toe being naturally further back , im very impressed ....my horse it shod every 4 weeks to try and keep the toe back (as you commented you can see its constantly been dumped off)and its surprising to me being new to this that having yr horse barefoot has naturally improved the angles . I think i will do what you said and just say hes having field rest ect you say not to get them trimmed for a while does it matter about all the chunks that start to splinter off as the nail holes grow out would they not need tidying up just with rasp or should i just leave it alone ? Thanks for your help btw you have put a lot of time and detail in to these posts. Road work might be difficult we have one main road that the yard is on and its really bust with HGV's wouldnt take my horse n it he not good with big wagons ...we have 3 surfaced schools and of road hacking with a combination of gravel tracks and mud lol !
 
No it doesn't matter, just let them flake off. tidying would only make it look better makes no difference to the feet really.

From the pics it doesn't look like there is much of a frog sulcus to have thrush issues with but that is always worth keeping an eye on and treating if necessary - I treat mine if it starts to look less than optimal, doesn't have to have any smell or anything but find it just brings it back to line - red horse products are fab.

Now if you are feeling really geeky you could set your phone up on the ground and walk past it (with the horse obv) a couple of times and towards and away from it so you can see how your horse is landing (if you put it on youtube you can play it in slow mo), and see if any improvement later on.

That's a shame about the road situation. I would play it by ear and see what works for you. Movement is important for good feet but what they can cope with. There is no issue with using boots for all work but you do then lose the helpful trimming effect of the road. It also depends on the gravel, soft moving gravel is brilliant for feet, that is what makes up half of rockley, hard gravel with bits of stone on top of a hard surface is hard work for them. I did at one point become quite pro at putting boots on for the nasty bits and off again for the grass bits. Are your schools quite large so you aren't constantly turning? The one thing I would poss do (not quite straight away when I didn't want to turn much but while rehabbing) that I didn't would be some straightness training http://straightnesstraining.com/
 
Schools will be fine but without Tarmac or concrete you'll need hoof boots and maybe pads inside to do some of the conditioning work on stoney tracks.
 
its funny you say about being geeky as i was obssesed when he was initially diagnosed with caudal heel pain of videoing his foot placement i have loads of vids at walk trot and canter on lunge and straight he was landing flat possibly slightly toe first on occasion lol iv not done it recently though ! Are schools are big one is 60 x 40 and one 20x40 and indoor is 50 x 30 iv avoided small circles since problems started x
 
I was you 6 years ago!
Bought a young horse with aim to do comps. Horse of a lifetime etc. Took out a loan to buy him. Emptied the piggy bank!!
He totally broke down 14 months later. Vets wasted my ins money and to this day I am still angry at them. Eventually got diagnosis 11 months later. Tried absolutely everything and ended up spending about 6.5k on treatments. He was retired aged 8. He had always had remedial shoeing as front feet not a good shape.
After a year I tried to bring him back into work as he was bored. Had all the top farriers and vets etc. He didn't feel ever quite right so he was retired again with a view to pts.
Then we had a new young farrier. Was telling him the whole story and he basically said he wouldn't put shoes on him as he had so much going on with his feet. It was the first time someone professional had suggested it.
Shoes came off and we haven't looked back. He has been sound in full hacking work for nearly 2 years now.
I couldn't send him to rockley so tried my best to do it myself within the constraints of a livery yard etc. I had no issues really. Have never needed hoof boots, he hasn't ever been sore really and we just let his feet do their thing! Which they do odd things sometimes but that's fine as they work!!
I don't shout it from the roof tops and I'm not part of any groups etc I just try follow the basics as well as I can and let nature do its thing!!
 
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