9mth Lab puppy with severy hip dysplasia

[MurphysMinder]

No, of course a diagnosis isn't always correct, particularly if it is given without x ray, or with a poor quality x ray, I have said this many times on here when HD has been mentioned. But you seemed to be suggesting that Mini Miltons vet had misdiagnosed and she should even have sued, but there was nothing she posted that suggested to me the dog did not have HD, just that the surgery gave him a long and happy life.

 

[Alec Swan]

.......

I understand where you are coming from dry rot, he is happy and pain free on anti inflamatories and painkillers. But without them he cries when he gets up, cries when he trips up or another dog bumps into him, and at times he struggles to walk. I have always said I wouldnt keep a horse going if they had to have bute everyday, just my opinion. But im now in the situation with my puppy.

........

Few will fail to be touched by the plight of your puppy, or you. Few will also disagree that maintaining a life, at any cost, would be questionable. The criteria by which you consider a horse's life value, could perhaps apply to that of your dog, too. Your dog, your choice.

Alec.

 

[SusieT]

I would always get a referral to specialist. In a nutshell what you need to know is:
Prognosis without surgery, if doing well on pain relief then maintain until starts to deteriorate
Prognosis with surgery in exact terms:-length of recovery and what exactly it involves cage rest etc.
Costs involved.
Hip ops are very good these days-with good pain relief I see no reason why it would be 'putting the dog trhough' anything nasty.

 

[cremedemonthe]

Firstly, I'd go to a specialist unit such as Fitzpatrick Referrals in Goldalming or the one I took my Bernese to in Bletchingley Surrey (North Downs Specialist Referrals) and get them to look at the plates you had taken. From there take their advice as to best next steps.

Another vote for Fitzpatrick, they sorted my Lurcher's smashed leg out no problem and she runs like a rocket now, I went there as I could not get an appointment quick enough at North Downs which was annoying as it's only a couple of miles away from me.My lab x staffy has had a TPLO (Tibial-plateau-leveling osteotomy) at my own specialist vet here in Caterham and that leg is fine now, but his other stifle is playing up so maybe he's in for another but I am trying supplements including turmeric, raw virgin coconut oil and Diatomaceous Earth (makes joints more elastic), it all seems to help him so I am monitoring his progress. Good luck with your pup whatever you decide.
Oz

 

[Imogen Rose]

Hello, just a bit of an update and some more queries...
Pups has got much worse, two 15 min walks a day and his pain isn't controlled by the maximum painkillers he is allowed.
Part of the problem is that he slips on the tiled floor, so we are going to velcro carpet to the entire groumd floor of the house...
My parents have decided to go for the op where he has the top of the joint removed so it floats. This wasnt my decision, we had a vote and that option came out on top, so that is what he is having done within the next month. The vet said he would have to be older for the double hip op, and this one was more recomended. Either way he cant continue as he is. PTS is what everyone is thinking but it isnt currently an option I can say outloud. The first anniversary of my mums beloved lab's death is the 10th of feb.. the prospect of putting her puppy to sleep practically on this anniversary is destroying her.
When he cries in pain she sits on the floor and cries with him. She had undiagnosed lymes disease for the first three months after toby's death, and one of the symptoms is severe depression. Pups has helped her through this and the thought of her losing him is unbearable.

Sorry, thats all a bit pointless but I dont really have anyone to say it to.

My main reason for posting is that im very shocked about the breeders response to all this.
Previously my dad spoke to the breeders husband, and they had a manly conversation about it and the breeders husband said he would get his wife to call mum. Anyway, this is now two or so weeks later and the breeder spoke to my mum finally this evening. Her reaction has shocked me and frankly I think it is appauling.
My mum told her the vets opinion on the dog. Pups mum had a hip score of 11, which the breeder was very proud of. however the vet has commented that she shouldnt have been bred from with a score that high. The breeder went nuts at this and started shouting down the phone to my mum. Apparently mum is slandering her good name, and was really horrible and threatening to her. She repeatedly offered to give us our money back and take the dog back. Mum was adamant that this isnt what she wants and will never give up the dog, and said it isn't about money. The breeder then demanded to have him back so she could put him to sleep, and urged my mum to do it.
She refuses to acknowledge that it is anything to do with her dog, and berated and blamed my mum for feeding a diet too high in calcium and over walking him. This breeder has kept pups litter sister for breeding and still intends to breed from her.
My mum firmly believes she has no welfare concerns for pups, but that the breeder merely wants all evidence of him destroyed as it threatens her dog breeding business.

Is the breeder allowed to treat us like this? is it reasonable to suggest it is inherited? should she breed from the other puppy? Is it slander by publishing that we have a dog with hip dyspepsia that she bred?

Thanks for reading x

 

[EAST KENT]

Upsetting though it is the breeder is right.A labrador with a score of 11 is very acceptable,even better if mated to a male of less.We breeders do tend to get cross when vets spout off about stuff outside their remit,it is for instance very annoying when they give their opinion on a puppy`s show potential about which they have no knowledge.Personally I think this puppy is being kept alive and in discomfort for yourselves,not for his own good.It may be that hip head removal will eventually give him a reasonable life..but both legs cannot be done at the same time,so this will mean many months of pain and recovery.Bearing in mind a dog life of say twelve years,six or eight months is a huge slice of it to suffer pain.
Like Dry Rot I actually dislike stuff like the Fitzpatrick set up,in some cases his procedures are little short of vivisection.Dogs are just dogs,to prolong suffering is a very wrong thing to do.

 

[MurphysMinder]

I too have some sympathy with the breeder. If any vet told me a score of 11 was too high to breed from I would be furious. If this had been a pup I had bred I would have offered a refund but not necessarily asked for return of the pup , however I would probably ask for my vet to see the pup.
It must be heartbreaking for your family but if he is in so much pain I think I would be considering pts if I am honest.

 

[satinbaze]

I presume the bitch's hip score was a total of 11. Hips are normally scored each hip then total eg: 5:5=10. In which case 11 is perfectly acceptable for breeding. Malcolm Willis the GSD man and hip score guru maintained a total of under 15 is acceptable breeding stock. Do you know what the sire's hip score is as obviously he provides 50% of the genes. Unfortunately bad hips can come our if the blue from generations of low hip scored dogs.
Whilst I feel awful for you and your puppy, I'm not really sure what else the breeder could do for you other than offer money back.
I am a great believer that we make the best decisions we can at that moment in time. Fingers crossed for the best outcome for your pup.

 

[EAST KENT]

But hip scoring is a funny old thing,and can throw up some nasty surprises.For instance,I mated a Border Collie bitch ,score 14,which was under the breed avaerage at the time;I put her to a New Zealand import with a HD score of 5.The puppies were indeed beautiful,but the male I kept back had a score of 65!
It is widely recognised now that HD is a result more or less fifty/fifty of hereditary factors plus rearing and environment,which is probably what the upset breeder was trying to convey.Puppy growth plates do not become firmly attached before nine months or so,later still if neutered young,so too much exercise/type of food etc will play a huge part in the eventual outcome.This puppy needs the right fair decision made sooner rather than later in my honest opinion,for his own good,which should be the only way of thinking

 

[mynutmeg]

Good luck with the ops etc.

I have a collie who is now 10 1/2, she was diagnosed with mild/moderate hip dysplasia at aroun 11 months old (she was x-rayed while being spayed as I had suspisions due to how she was sitting). She was probably 6-7 before she started showing symptoms. Over the last couple of years she has deteriorated quite significiantly however is happy and bouncy on restricted exercise (10-15 minutes off lead a day, she's fairly sensible), regular hydrotherapy sessions, anit-inflammatories and codeine.

I decided not to have any surgery for her partly due to her age and I know she wouldn't cope with the crate rest required and at her age it wasn't fair to put her through that - I think if she was younger I would have made a different decision.

the one thing I would say is before doing any surgery is to have a specialist orthopaedic opinion from one of the major vet schools.

 

[Alec Swan]

I would never operate on any dog, which has H/D, regardless of age or severity. If the dog couldn't live a useful and fulfilling life, without an op, then so be it, it would go to heaven.

Maintaining canine cripples, in my opinion, is a level of cruelty which is similar to those who keep the terminally ill animal alive, and suffering.

Alec.

 

[CorvusCorax]

This is purely my opinion, if my dog needed strong pain killers, bits sheared off its bones or lots of metal work in a crucial joint at such a young age then I would be letting him go. I do know dogs which have been graded 'severe' or 'not for breeding' or have cricket score hip scores which have lived long, happy, sound lives but your wee fella sounds like he is in a lot of pain.

Regardless of what you decide to do, I'm really sorry for your Mum's troubles but it is unfair of us humans to use pets as an emotional crutch when their own health is at stake, it is massively stressful for them, and they have no choice in the matter.

I'm lucky enough to have dogs which have lived to as long as 14. I've had dogs we've had to move on pretty young and dogs which have not seen their sixth birthday. It's part of dog ownership, the joy and the pain, sometimes it is just not meant to be.
If you'd told me two years ago that my grey dog would be dead, at such a young age, it would have destroyed me. As it happened, when I watched him fall asleep almost a year ago this week, I was relieved as he was no longer in pain.

As regards hip dysplasia, I believe it's not just mum and dad you have to look at, but generations of clear/low scoring stock. The vet was wrong to say 11 is a high score but equally the breeder should not be verbally abusive.
She IS however offering a refund or to replace/take back the pup which I respect. A bad breeder would not care and would tell you to fill your boots.

Your comment about slippy floors has rung alarm bells, genetically good hips are genetically good hips, but an average/poor set of hips could be made worse by a lot of splaying, slipping or slamming around on a hard surface from a young age.

But anyway, I hope I don't sound judgemental, I do genuinely wish you all the best, whatever you decide.

 

[blackcob]

I don't have a picture of my own dog's ortho op but this is what she has in one of her legs (and a 60% chance of having one in the other leg at some point):

That canine cripple has gone on to live a supremely athletic life free of pain and lameness. The pros and cons of surgery must be considered in light of the individual circumstances, there is no one size fits all approach to things like this.

That said, as it has been described I am not sure I would choose a surgical route for this dog but the OP and her vet are in possession of much more information than we are.

 

[Alec Swan]

b_c, at no point have I told others that they should follow my example. If you choose to operate, then that's entirely up to you. It would never be an ordeal that I would put a dog through.

Without judgement, the choice is yours. Similarly, the choice to not operate, is mine.

Alec.

 

[mynutmeg]

I would never operate on any dog, which has H/D, regardless of age or severity. If the dog couldn't live a useful and fulfilling life, without an op, then so be it, it would go to heaven.

Maintaining canine cripples, in my opinion, is a level of cruelty which is similar to those who keep the terminally ill animal alive, and suffering.

Alec.

I don't have a picture of my own dog's ortho op but this is what she has in one of her legs (and a 60% chance of having one in the other leg at some point):

That canine cripple has gone on to live a supremely athletic life free of pain and lameness. The pros and cons of surgery must be considered in light of the individual circumstances, there is no one size fits all approach to things like this.

That said, as it has been described I am not sure I would choose a surgical route for this dog but the OP and her vet are in possession of much more information than we are.

Depending on whats wrong then, for example with hip dysplasia, one of the options is hip replacements which then provides the dog with a pain free, normal life. I chose not to do this for my girl because by the time she needed it she was already 8/9 and it's about 3 months crate rest per hip. I also know that my hyper, neurotic border collie who didn't cope with a lump removal very well wouldn't deal well with the surgery however for a younger dog with a more even temperment then I would certainly consider it - unlike humans once the joint is replaced there would be no need to re-do it at any point as the prostethic joint will outlive the dog.

The femoral head removal can work although my understanding is that it's prefered for smaller dogs and doens't work as well in larger breeds. I know one terrier that had it done and he did regain pretty much full use of his leg

 

[zigzag]

The puppy is on maximum painkillers and still gets pain, do the decent thing and put the poor thing to sleep

 

[Alec Swan]

.......

Your comment about slippy floors has rung alarm bells, genetically good hips are genetically good hips, but an average/poor set of hips could be made worse by a lot of splaying, slipping or slamming around on a hard surface from a young age.

........

There used to be a lady who bred Labradors called Joan Macan. She was subsequently murdered under strange very circumstances, but that's another story. She once offered me a job as a residential dog trainer as she was looking to offer her dogs as dual purpose. I didn't take the job but during the interview, she told me that her puppies were never kept on concrete, and that they were never allowed to be in groups that would play, feeling as she did, that HD could be 'encouraged' and that obviously being not what she wanted.

I suspect that just as OCD is a complaint which can be promoted by diet and perhaps an immediate environment, so HD can also be promoted, amongst those dogs with a predisposition to the complaint, and whether such risk should be guarded against and so those dogs with a predisposition should be bred from, or whether breeding stock should only be sourced from those animals which we'll call 'genetically clean', is another matter. Sourcing the breeding stock which only have genetically clean antecedents, will in itself reduce the gene pool to such a small number that that in itself will foster such problems. Catch 22!!

50 years ago, I only really remember HD being present in Labs and GSDs, and amongst those two breeds, it was virtually endemic. I certainly don't remember Collies or Spaniels with the complaint, and no one yet has explained to me how we've ended up in this state, a state where inflicted animals are operated on with prosthetic and surgical implants affecting a great many and all with the apparent applause of the veterinary profession. I suspect that there's a certain collision course for the ethical stance and the financially driven aspect of the veterinary profession, but that's another story!

Back to the start; Should puppies be reared in an environment which is likely to give them a degree of protection, or should they, through a survival-of-the-fittest regime, be weeded out? I'm really not sure of the answer, or even if there is an answer!

Back in 1994 I had a foal with OCD and the AHT Vet who operated told me that OCD had its first recorded case in 1946, its second in 1964 and that it had doubled, every year since to the point where the exponential incidence rate, over the intervening years effectively meant that just about every horse born was at risk. As with the spread of HD and other probably genetically influenced complaints, how on earth have we arrived at this dreadful state?

Alec.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Don't you think it may be that people are more aware of HD so more dogs are being diagnosed now Alec. Nearly 40 years ago I had a young Jack Russell who was lame on a hind leg, rest and anti inflammatories didn't really help and I pressed my vet to x ray as I felt it was her hip. My vet (who did all my hip x rays in the GSDs for the old style KC system), laughed and said "you GSD folk are hip obsessed". However he did x ray, and the hip on the lame leg had a very poor socket and lots of arthritic changes. She had the surgery to remove the femur head and after a fairly quick convalescence, which involved lots of swimming in the canal (no hydrotherapy pools in those days) she made a full recovery and lived an active life until she was 14 years old.
I think common sense should be used with young pups, as regard to exercise and do agree that sliding round on slippy floors could cause damage to joints that are already weak. I remember years ago the idea came , from USA I think, that jumping up on hind legs as young pups caused hd, so a few breeders were rearing their litters in pens with lids on. I don't know if it made any difference and seemed to be a very short lived fad, another was giving loads of ascorbic acid to the pup/young dog, I remember visiting one kennel and they put a real cocktail of vitamins and supplements on their pups feeds, again not sure if it made a difference.

 

[Clodagh]

I think the trouble is it is hard to assess the pain a dog is in. An older dog may be slowing down a lot and you think 'Oh it is just old age' and then perhaps you put it on rimadyl or similar and you think 'Wow, it is young again'. There are a lot of grades of pain below crying out or biting and in a pup how do you assess those? I really feel sorry for you, OP. I am with Alex though, I wouldn't operate on a young dog. Our lab - 7 this year - was lame with elbow problems as a pup. We were offered an op to be followed by months of crate rest but decided just to suck it and see. She has occasional periods of lameness after running in circles, which we strongly discourage, but is generally fine.

 

[mynutmeg]

There used to be a lady who bred Labradors called Joan Macan. She was subsequently murdered under strange very circumstances, but that's another story. She once offered me a job as a residential dog trainer as she was looking to offer her dogs as dual purpose. I didn't take the job but during the interview, she told me that her puppies were never kept on concrete, and that they were never allowed to be in groups that would play, feeling as she did, that HD could be 'encouraged' and that obviously being not what she wanted.

I suspect that just as OCD is a complaint which can be promoted by diet and perhaps an immediate environment, so HD can also be promoted, amongst those dogs with a predisposition to the complaint, and whether such risk should be guarded against and so those dogs with a predisposition should be bred from, or whether breeding stock should only be sourced from those animals which we'll call 'genetically clean', is another matter. Sourcing the breeding stock which only have genetically clean antecedents, will in itself reduce the gene pool to such a small number that that in itself will foster such problems. Catch 22!!

50 years ago, I only really remember HD being present in Labs and GSDs, and amongst those two breeds, it was virtually endemic. I certainly don't remember Collies or Spaniels with the complaint, and no one yet has explained to me how we've ended up in this state, a state where inflicted animals are operated on with prosthetic and surgical implants affecting a great many and all with the apparent applause of the veterinary profession. I suspect that there's a certain collision course for the ethical stance and the financially driven aspect of the veterinary profession, but that's another story!

Back to the start; Should puppies be reared in an environment which is likely to give them a degree of protection, or should they, through a survival-of-the-fittest regime, be weeded out? I'm really not sure of the answer, or even if there is an answer!

Back in 1994 I had a foal with OCD and the AHT Vet who operated told me that OCD had its first recorded case in 1946, its second in 1964 and that it had doubled, every year since to the point where the exponential incidence rate, over the intervening years effectively meant that just about every horse born was at risk. As with the spread of HD and other probably genetically influenced complaints, how on earth have we arrived at this dreadful state?

Alec.

I think a lot of the rise in these sort of problems is the breeding for looks rather than function - take GSD's being bred with slopped hips/back ends, this just encourages poor hips! Within collies my girl is an unregistered, farm/working parents bred girl yet she has pretty bad hips - she was never properly scored as I had no intention of breeding her (her conformation is pretty poor aside from her hips and there are far too many unwanted, high drive collie dogs out there as it is)
This is her x-ray at 8 years old, she went onto opiods not long after these were taken (she was out for a lump removal and she'd been getting stiffer so we x-rayed as she was already out) I suspect that the arthritis would be a lot more advanced should we x-ray again but I see no point in risking the anasthetic when we know what's going on and it wouldn't change her management. She'll stay on pain killers / joint supplement for as long as she's comfortable and happy then it will be time to say goodnight - honestly when she started on the opiods I didn't expect to still have her now but they've been very effective in keeping her happy and comfortable.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Without wishing to derail the thread, I don't 'sloping back ends' has anything to do with hip dysplasia, or else why would Labs, Rotts, Collies, Spaniels and other breeds get is as well.
Alec, I think the gene pools are big enough in both the Lab and the GSD to breed from genetically 'clean', well conformed and good working stock.
If I were to look at litter registrations in my own breed, the people who are breeding from stock with high scores are not the Germanic show fraternity, who often get blamed for the 'slopey back' thing, but those who breed 'old fashioned, big boned, straight backed' - IE oversized and overladen and usually in a selection of 'rare' colours and those breeding from old English lines - if indeed their stock is scored at all, because of course, straight backed dogs do not get hip dysplasia....