A Badminton GR vs Bramham pondering.

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MadJ

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Having just read the Bramham report in HHO, I'm a slow reader, the comment that "proper coffins are rare at one and two star level, so horses are not prepared for the test". This got me wondering why a similar question was asked of the horses at the GR championships when you have more experienced horses at 3 star putting the brakes on or producing ugly jumps?
Thoughts anyone?
 
My thoughts exactly. I really thought I'd done everything possible to prepare for the 90 Champs at Badminton and have done several full coffins on the flat but never encountered anything like the one at Badminton in training or competition. Horse just didn't know what to do with himself. Since then he has had a loss of confidence and got eliminated at his next event. Such a shame given his pretty immaculate XC record up until Badminton. He's also not the only one I know of who has lost their confidence since. I know it's a championship and you have to up the degree of difficulty but I do think it was a bit much. I know plenty of others disagree but that's my opinion. I had another run out later in the course and I have no problems with that fence at all as I just didn't ride it accurately enough but for me the coffin was too big an ask for a 90 horse.
 
I think they have become rarer in more recent times....I remember Richmond having one a good few years back which hasnt been in use for some years now (it certainly wasnt on the same gradient as the one at the GR finals but still commanded respect and a decent 'showjumping' engine type canter into it as it was situated in a dip and the horses didnt spy the ditch until the last minute)

Id much rather see more fences like this that encourage thinking but positive riding and a brave horse rather than all these daft skinnys and lines which seem to have become so prevalent now which I dont think encourage flowing positive riding and in my mind they make horses always think backwards to the rider to tell them what to do - not always what you want when going cross country.
 
The one at Badminton is a pretty wide and deep one for 90 level. My mare looks at ditches, but there has never been anything at 90 that was remotely frightening. She would have had eyes on stalks at that coffin.

I guess it will become known that the GR course has things like that, so more people will know what to expect.

Star that's a shame for you that it has knocked him. I hope things come together again for you.
 
But is it fair for a question like that to be asked at GR level, when there was problems caused by a comparable obstacle at at 3 star?
There's all this talk of courses going back to the big, bold, rider frightening XC, but what happens if those horses used to skinnys and tight turns haven't been prepared for it at a lower level?
 
I had a look at the pictures on the Badminton GR website and if it was fence 8abc... It didn't look all that bad. *sorry* :) I am of the opinion that yes, it is fair. My understanding of the Badminton GR is it is a championship? (correct me if I am wrong, I genuinely don't know - Don't you have to qualify, or do you get invited to ride?). Badminton has a reputation for being quite tough (at least from what I have heard over here) and I would expect Badminton GR to put both horse and rider to the test. The course designer would have ensured that it is max height, depth and width and would not have put in a question that is too much for the horses at that level. It is the TD's job to assess the course and make sure the jump is at height and is not too much to ask horses at that level and it is our job as riders to ensure we properly and thoroughly introduce our horses to any element they may be introduced to on course.

Yes, lower level horses may be ditchy, but how much of that is coming from the rider? We all know that we need to relax and not panic when riding as our horses feel tension... If a rider is thinking "holy ***t, that ditch is HUGE! It's terrifying," it makes sense the horse will have a decent look at a jump. Over here, a lot of the time the riders that have problems with particular jumps, are the ones walking the course saying to themselves, "oh that coffin is scary - he won't like that, My horse doesn't like jumping into water, we always have problems at trakheners, my horse won't jump skinnies..." That is the reason I only walk the course with my trainer or by myself... I don't want to listen to other riders psyching themselves out before they even get on. If I have trouble on course, fine. I take note and take steps to ensure I am properly prepared for the next event, even if that means getting creative at home to recreate jumps or going out to hire a course that has similar questions on it.

(I am gonna duck and run for the hills now...) :)
 
Of course it was fair you are not competing in a dressage competition its about time the boundaries are pushed a little . I personally feel that it had all become a little to predictable. At the end of the day there was nothing outside the rules.
There will be riders that were glad that fence was in there at Badminton as it will have gained them a few places.
How can you even compare the 3* coffin at Bramham with the GR fence.
 
NaeNae87 said:
I had a look at the pictures on the Badminton GR website and if it was fence 8abc... It didn't look all that bad. *sorry* :) I am of the opinion that yes, it is fair. My understanding of the Badminton GR is it is a championship? (correct me if I am wrong, I genuinely don't know - Don't you have to qualify, or do you get invited to ride?). Badminton has a reputation for being quite tough (at least from what I have heard over here) and I would expect Badminton GR to put both horse and rider to the test. The course designer would have ensured that it is max height, depth and width and would not have put in a question that is too much for the horses at that level. It is the TD's job to assess the course and make sure the jump is at height and is not too much to ask horses at that level and it is our job as riders to ensure we properly and thoroughly introduce our horses to any element they may be introduced to on course.

Yes, lower level horses may be ditchy, but how much of that is coming from the rider? We all know that we need to relax and not panic when riding as our horses feel tension... If a rider is thinking "holy ***t, that ditch is HUGE! It's terrifying," it makes sense the horse will have a decent look at a jump. Over here, a lot of the time the riders that have problems with particular jumps, are the ones walking the course saying to themselves, "oh that coffin is scary - he won't like that, My horse doesn't like jumping into water, we always have problems at trakheners, my horse won't jump skinnies..." That is the reason I only walk the course with my trainer or by myself... I don't want to listen to other riders psyching themselves out before they even get on. If I have trouble on course, fine. I take note and take steps to ensure I am properly prepared for the next event, even if that means getting creative at home to recreate jumps or going out to hire a course that has similar questions on it.

(I am gonna duck and run for the hills now...) :)
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In fairness fences, slopes etc never look as big / steep in a picture as they do in real life............

Star - did they have a black flag for the fence? Perhaps one that would have wasted lots and lots of time would have been sensible so people could finish?
 
I haven't seen the coffin at Badminton, but wasn't it in the course last year, jumped the other way around? (and not causing so many issues iirc)
I seem to remember jumping many coffins 20 odd years ago from where a coffin canter was ingrained, can't remember the last time I saw a 'proper' 'rail ditch rail' now.
 
No black flag route which was a real shame as meant a lot of people walked home from there as no alternative even once you'd had a run out so you could at least go on and complete.
My point is how is it fair if no other course has anything like it? How do you practice something that you can't introduce the horse to to practice. I've been competing at 90 and 100 for a while now and schooling atNovice yet never come aacross a proper rail ditch rail let alone one with a slope on it like that one. My horse isn't ditchy. I had no particular worries about that fenxe when walking the course as I expected him to take it in his stride like he has with other coffins but he ran out last minute which is totally out of character for him.
 
I thought the Badminton Coffin was a tough question, it was steep with a decent ditch and I agree with star, I have been to lots of 90's (as a spectator/photographer) and have not seen a coffin like the one at Badminton, the closest like it was the one at Borde Hill last year but was a half coffin I think and it was very open.

Not having a black flag route is quite unfair at that level, yes it's a championship but it's important to educate and get horses round rather than sending them packing so early on, that is a recipe for destroying confidence in my opinion.

Another event where you can't really practice one of the obstacles is the Hickstead Derby. Every single year you'll see a load of horses get to the top of the bank and the look on their faces says "what the hell do you want me to do now?" So if you have lots of money, build yourself a coffin/derby bank at home, if not then perhaps go hunting to educate horses to deal with steep slopes and ditches but it's never going to replicate the fence in question, you're either lucky in that the horse understands it or you're not.
 
The fence jumped fine in the previous year, from the opposite direction which makes me think that it wasn't the rail, ditch rail combo which was the problem but the way it was sited and as has been said the slope to the ditch.
I am surprised people don't jump coffins as standard any more, in the olden days when nothing was technical, coffins were pretty common.
 
Dunlin said:
I thought the Badminton Coffin was a tough question, it was steep with a decent ditch and I agree with star, I have been to lots of 90's (as a spectator/photographer) and have not seen a coffin like the one at Badminton, the closest like it was the one at Borde Hill last year but was a half coffin I think and it was very open.

Not having a black flag route is quite unfair at that level, yes it's a championship but it's important to educate and get horses round rather than sending them packing so early on, that is a recipe for destroying confidence in my opinion.

Another event where you can't really practice one of the obstacles is the Hickstead Derby. Every single year you'll see a load of horses get to the top of the bank and the look on their faces says "what the hell do you want me to do now?" So if you have lots of money, build yourself a coffin/derby bank at home, if not then perhaps go hunting to educate horses to deal with steep slopes and ditches but it's never going to replicate the fence in question, you're either lucky in that the horse understands it or you're not.
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We have an SJ venue near us with a smaller version of the derby bank. They regularly hold sj derbies there and use it for arena events - fantastic investment and one I think more venues should make!!!
 
I would say getting on for half getting round with no jumping penalty is about were it wants to be! Nobody wants a dressage competition to give the outcome of a prestigious championship like this. I am sure as many riders were happy with that fence as were not you cannot please everybody.
 
The whole essence of schooling horses jumping and XC in particular is to build a trust that the horse will jump what is in front of him whether he knows what is the other side or not. The rider's responsibility is to put the horse in the right balance, length of stride, speed and power. The horse's responsibility is then to work out the problem and jump it At all levels there will be fences that they haven't seen before but if they are given time to assess the problem and are presented in a way that they can jump it comfortably, then a bold horse should be fine. Every time the horse is surprised or has to bail the rider out, then you take away from the confidence bank. Too often and you become overdrawn! This is where the true coffin canter is a vital tool and has become a dying art.
In answer to the original question, there is no reason not to have true coffin type fences at a low level in the correct dimensions and easy distances and profiles as then the horses learn to jump when they can't see the landing until the last minute but this can also be part of the training at home. When they then meet those type of fences at a higher level with possibly tighter distances and a more difficult profile, they are prepared with the correct technique. Also remember that young and inexperienced horses will make mistakes. This is normal but the important thing is that they learn from it and deal with it.
 
oldvic said:
The whole essence of schooling horses jumping and XC in particular is to build a trust that the horse will jump what is in front of him whether he knows what is the other side or not. The rider's responsibility is to put the horse in the right balance, length of stride, speed and power. The horse's responsibility is then to work out the problem and jump it At all levels there will be fences that they haven't seen before but if they are given time to assess the problem and are presented in a way that they can jump it comfortably, then a bold horse should be fine. Every time the horse is surprised or has to bail the rider out, then you take away from the confidence bank. Too often and you become overdrawn! This is where the true coffin canter is a vital tool and has become a dying art.
In answer to the original question, there is no reason not to have true coffin type fences at a low level in the correct dimensions and easy distances and profiles as then the horses learn to jump when they can't see the landing until the last minute but this can also be part of the training at home. When they then meet those type of fences at a higher level with possibly tighter distances and a more difficult profile, they are prepared with the correct technique. Also remember that young and inexperienced horses will make mistakes. This is normal but the important thing is that they learn from it and deal with it.
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Well said :)
 
I agree with the general issue of it's difficult to practice when there is nowhere to practice! Oldvic some very good points but you do say 'a bold horse should be fine' and although we'd all love to be sat on the boldest and the bravest it's not always the case!
Keysoe have built rail-ditch-rail combo's in to their 90 & 100 courses this year but there is a fair distance between the elements and the 90 is flat. The 100 drops steeply down on the last stride before the ditch, my horse took a look before jumping it this weekend and he's been to 3*!
 
I agree with OV's general remarks. From memory the first time I encountered a true sloped coffin was at Belton where it is used from Nov-3*. It did initially concern me, but in my head I figured the main problem would be the first element which was essentially a fence with a (steeply) dropping away landing, and we had jumped those before. There is also one used at Osberton in the 1 and 2*. They are not hugely common - there are plenty that are flat, but few that are steeply sloped and having rails instead of a rolltop as the first element makes judgement of pace even more essential.

I don't think it was an unreasonable question for Badminton GR, irrespective of whether horses/riders had encountered one before, as it tests the ability to produce the correct gears for safe XC riding. However I do agree that the provision of a black-flagged A element, provided it was sufficiently time-consuming, might have allowed more to complete. Given that the GR Champs are the pinnacle of a lot of people's ambitions a completion, albeit with a 20 and a load of time, would enable them to have come away feeling less defeated.
 
I think part of the problem is that when coffins are incorporated in 90s and 100s they are, as gingerlegs points out, on flat ground and with at least two strides between the first element and the ditch. The first element is often not just rails, but a log or a house or something similar that prevents the horse seeing the ditch before take off. So riders become complacent because their horses tackle these combinations easily without the need for a 'coffin canter', assume the horse is OK with coffins. When they meet their first proper coffin and ride just as they did at the lower levels, they suddenly get a shock when the horse puts a stop in!
 
Gamebird said:
I agree with OV's general remarks. From memory the first time I encountered a true sloped coffin was at Belton where it is used from Nov-3*. It did initially concern me, but in my head I figured the main problem would be the first element which was essentially a fence with a (steeply) dropping away landing, and we had jumped those before. There is also one used at Osberton in the 1 and 2*. They are not hugely common - there are plenty that are flat, but few that are steeply sloped and having rails instead of a rolltop as the first element makes judgement of pace even more essential.

I don't think it was an unreasonable question for Badminton GR, irrespective of whether horses/riders had encountered one before, as it tests the ability to produce the correct gears for safe XC riding. However I do agree that the provision of a black-flagged A element, provided it was sufficiently time-consuming, might have allowed more to complete. Given that the GR Champs are the pinnacle of a lot of people's ambitions a completion, albeit with a 20 and a load of time, would enable them to have come away feeling less defeated.
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Absolutely this. A black flag alt would have been a good idea for such a testing coffin, but it definitely deserved to be on the course.
 
I think the problem with coffin fences is that at lower levels they make some riders panic. They then either ride in too fast and flat or under-ride.

I think the problem here is that training is lacking. As others have mentioned, a true coffin canter is a rarity nowadays at the lower levels and even to a certain extent the higher levels.

With the Badminton GR fence you have to give the horse time to suss out the problem, but most importantly keep the leg on in case he decides to back off. Sometimes use of the stick behind the leg may be required.

I don't think the complaints are fair. Badminton GR is a Championship. It is meant to cut the wheat from the chaff. It may sound harsh but if you need an alternative to get round you are not ready to be there.

People who have problems with ditches need to beat the mental game with lots of practising of ditches and coffins in a proper coffin canter.
 
I think if half the people got round with no penalties as said above the course standard was set perfectly. It wouldn't be a championship if it didn't make you think and give an additional challenge. Providing it was still safe for horse and rider I can't see the issue, comes across as sour grapes tbh.
 
There are plenty of Devil Dyke's around - and show jumpers manage to jump them - not even a bold eventer. They have rails going in a slope and generally a decent ditch filled with water in the middle. Maybe for next time people could think outside the box and hire their local derby course and practise over that if they cant find a coffin with a slope.
 
Anybody in the midlands has one that is arguably more scary to practice over at Aylesford XC course. If I'm ever lucky enough to qualify for GR I'll be making full use of it.
 
stencilface said:
I think if half the people got round with no penalties as said above the course standard was set perfectly. It wouldn't be a championship if it didn't make you think and give an additional challenge. Providing it was still safe for horse and rider I can't see the issue, comes across as sour grapes tbh.
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No sour grapes here. I had another run out later in the course and have no problem with that fence at all. My cross country skills clearly still need work. I just think the coffin was a step too far. Yes, it was a Championship but when the Regionals are run round a normal 90 course and then you rock up to Badminton and find a full old fashioned coffin it comes as a bit of a surprise. When one fence wipes out such a large percentage of the field I think it needs to be thought about. Especially when it means it causes the XC to end up running over an hour late due to so many course holds to repair the fence and replace the frangible pin. I know at least one person broke a limb at that fence. Lots of horses who did jump it left a leg and nearly tipped up. The rest of the course punished you with a run out if you got it wrong but that one was potentially a lot more serious to get wrong and I just think at 90 it was a big ask. I had schooled at Novice level and jumped as many coffins as I could find locally before I went. He's never been ditchy. I rode the best coffin canter I could possibly create but he was really not happy about it and it's affected his confidence as we got eliminated at next event for 3 refusals. I wish there had been a black flag option to take that was only possible once you'd had one run out so you could at least go on and complete. It meant so so much to everyone to get there that to walk home at fence 8 must have been pretty devastating. I'm lucky that Monty finally jumped it on the third attempt and we did get to complete. I really want to go back and have another go next year but slightly worried about how to prepare for it as I'm pretty sure it's there to stay and I did all the prep I thought I needed and can't see much else I could do! I don't want it to be a dressage competition that's for sure though. Anyway, we are all entitled to our thoughts. Plenty of differing thoughts about real Badminton too - at least that caused problems all round the course though.
 
But it's the same for everyone, that's eventing I guess :)

I think all the champs are massive, I can easily get round a BN, but I'm not so sure about the 2nd rounds as I'm pretty sure they're 1.10 ish aren't they? I've never even considered doing them lol.
 
Never understood why jumping championships have to get massive by the final. I'm used to dressage where if you qualify at Prelim then you ride Prelim at the Champs.
I've got nothing against fences that might cause me a run out. I'm just getting too old to hit the deck in such a spectacular fashion and already the prospect of going back and tackling it again makes me wibble!
 
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