A Badminton GR vs Bramham pondering.

[MadJ]

Thank you to everyone who's replied. I've found all the opinions really insightful and thought provoking.
I don't event as I'm not brave enough so was being a touch ignorant comparing the GR coffin to Bramham. To my spectators eye the 2 obstacles were similar, but thank you for explaining it.
Every day's a school day.

 

[Leaping]

I think the coffin was a reasonable question at Badminton GR but there should have been a black flag option.

I think part of the reason that you don't find coffin's like that at many events or even schooling places is two fold, one is the type of terrain required - which you either have or you don't have and secondly is that many places tend to use portables these days.

Portables tend to be solid rolltops or similar solid obstacles and with some width. There aren't many upright post and rails on courses in general these days, let alone with a ditch behind.

Which means riders at that level have never really had to develop a coffin canter, and knowing the theory is very different to having to put it into practise. This is reflected at all levels (and to be honest always has been, I have heard mutterings about riders not having a good coffin canter when having difficulty at fences for decades now!) Its not a new problem. Its not easy to train, its very different schooling in an arena with walls and fences to back you off, to sit the horse back naturally versus coming in after some forward cross country fences and trying to establish the coffin canter without just slowing the canter down and leaving the hocks in the next county. These days most people also use cross country schooling venues, again great but there are many jumps so the horse tends to stay more alert and ready than going xc when you have galloping stretches between fences and they can get long and a little on the forehand and the transition back to a coffin canter suddenly is very different to how it was in training.

Not just Badminton GR - its all the way up through to Badminton 4* , but expecting GR riders to be able to set up a good coffin canter is asking quite a question, although a number, including the winner who was a true GR rider managed it without any issue at all. The question should be left, its good for riders to learn,but a black flag option would have been fairer to all

 

[LittleRooketRider]

I agree with NaeNae (can't remember the number). Firstly itss a championship it is supposed to be tough, plus without fences like this eventing might as well be called Dressage and Show jumping.

Also I don't see how a horses at a higher level getting a similar fence wrong/misbehaving justifies calling this combination unfair....surely by toughening up the lower levels it ensures horse a more prepared to go up the levels rather than avoiding a possible problem which results in a much nastier stiuation with bigger fences.

and (no offence intended) but even if you have a "XC machine" there may always be holes in their education (or whatever phrase you'd rather use), beside they are not machines they do not respond like a computer programmed to do something they are asked sometimes they listen and sometimes nature overrides those instructions.

learn from this..taking them bac to basics if necessary building back up including fences like this you never know when it might make an appearance next. I also don't think that the fact it is not the kind of fence that is seen often is justifiable as a reason for it to be unfair because a) many others did get over it and b) none of the courses are all the same, there'd be no point in having different comps. venues if that was the case.

 

[gunnergundog]

I think the coffin was a reasonable question at Badminton GR but there should have been a black flag option.

I think part of the reason that you don't find coffin's like that at many events or even schooling places is two fold, one is the type of terrain required - which you either have or you don't have and secondly is that many places tend to use portables these days.

Portables tend to be solid rolltops or similar solid obstacles and with some width. There aren't many upright post and rails on courses in general these days, let alone with a ditch behind.

Which means riders at that level have never really had to develop a coffin canter, and knowing the theory is very different to having to put it into practise. This is reflected at all levels (and to be honest always has been, I have heard mutterings about riders not having a good coffin canter when having difficulty at fences for decades now!) Its not a new problem. Its not easy to train, its very different schooling in an arena with walls and fences to back you off, to sit the horse back naturally versus coming in after some forward cross country fences and trying to establish the coffin canter without just slowing the canter down and leaving the hocks in the next county. These days most people also use cross country schooling venues, again great but there are many jumps so the horse tends to stay more alert and ready than going xc when you have galloping stretches between fences and they can get long and a little on the forehand and the transition back to a coffin canter suddenly is very different to how it was in training.

Not just Badminton GR - its all the way up through to Badminton 4* , but expecting GR riders to be able to set up a good coffin canter is asking quite a question, although a number, including the winner who was a true GR rider managed it without any issue at all. The question should be left, its good for riders to learn,but a black flag option would have been fairer to all

Totally agree with this! To add to it, in days of yore, eventing was primarily a jumping test with the dressage as a bit of obedience up front, whereas in more recent times it has become (IMO) a dressage competition with a bit of jumping tagged on the end!

When I was eventing, the XC fences were normally set in hedge lines - island fences were the exception and not the norm. Events were run more in the parks of country estates and on farms as opposed to on purpose built equestrian centres, so again, IMO, there appeared to be more undulating ground to make use of. Also, I would suggest that more eventers used to regularly hunt their horses than appears to be the case nowadays and that to me is the best education you can give a young horse.

Indeed, I would have thought that any horse that had spent the winter hunting in my area would have coped with the Badminton coffin okay.......we were required to traverse old railway cuttings on a number of occasions......pop a small rail, slide down a bank, stride or two over the base (which was often flooded, so became a water jump!), scramble up the bank on the other side and pop rail on way out.

As a matter of interest, do sunken road crossings still crop up at the lower levels? (Rail, jump down off bank, stride or two across bottom, jump up bank and then rail). What other fences are we missing nowadays?

 

[khalswitz]

Totally agree with this! To add to it, in days of yore, eventing was primarily a jumping test with the dressage as a bit of obedience up front, whereas in more recent times it has become (IMO) a dressage competition with a bit of jumping tagged on the end!

When I was eventing, the XC fences were normally set in hedge lines - island fences were the exception and not the norm. Events were run more in the parks of country estates and on farms as opposed to on purpose built equestrian centres, so again, IMO, there appeared to be more undulating ground to make use of. Also, I would suggest that more eventers used to regularly hunt their horses than appears to be the case nowadays and that to me is the best education you can give a young horse.

Indeed, I would have thought that any horse that had spent the winter hunting in my area would have coped with the Badminton coffin okay.......we were required to traverse old railway cuttings on a number of occasions......pop a small rail, slide down a bank, stride or two over the base (which was often flooded, so became a water jump!), scramble up the bank on the other side and pop rail on way out.

As a matter of interest, do sunken road crossings still crop up at the lower levels? (Rail, jump down off bank, stride or two across bottom, jump up bank and then rail). What other fences are we missing nowadays?

We had a sunken road minus the rails last weekend at BRC Areas (not a BE course though). It had a roll top to a drop down one stride then step up to a roll top.

 

[chestnut cob]

We had a sunken road minus the rails last weekend at BRC Areas (not a BE course though). It had a roll top to a drop down one stride then step up to a roll top.

Also there is a v basic coffin at the venue I did a PC event at this weekend (it is also a BE course). It isn't a difficult one - the 90 is a little log with couple of strides to a ditch, so half coffin I guess? The 100 has another log on a slight angle after the ditch. Not really any slopes involved though so v inviting and kind, really I suppose. Mine has never seen anything like that and hasn't had that much experience XC, but he popped through it nicely. I've no idea how he'd cope with one like the GR coffin being discussed though. I couldn't tell from the videos - were the rails up to height?

 

[PaddyMonty]

I agree with OV's general remarks. From memory the first time I encountered a true sloped coffin was at Belton where it is used from Nov-3*.

I remember jumping one at weston novice back in 2000 and thought nothing of it. Was my 3rd event.
Think half the problem is people dont school over a course at comp speed. Most I see schooling over individual fences with a 15 yard run in. All very different when you've jumped a couple of ascending spreads at a decent lick then have to do a major adjustment for something a little more demanding.

 

[khalswitz]

Also there is a v basic coffin at the venue I did a PC event at this weekend (it is also a BE course). It isn't a difficult one - the 90 is a little log with couple of strides to a ditch, so half coffin I guess? The 100 has another log on a slight angle after the ditch. Not really any slopes involved though so v inviting and kind, really I suppose. Mine has never seen anything like that and hasn't had that much experience XC, but he popped through it nicely. I've no idea how he'd cope with one like the GR coffin being discussed though. I couldn't tell from the videos - were the rails up to height?

My lad rode a half coffin at a BE course when schooling in April - a rail, one stride to a ditch, but no exit rail. He didn't see the ditch til he was in the air - and then wouldn't go near it again. But he is very ditchy.

 

[chestnut cob]

My lad rode a half coffin at a BE course when schooling in April - a rail, one stride to a ditch, but no exit rail. He didn't see the ditch til he was in the air - and then wouldn't go near it again. But he is very ditchy.

Mine is usually OK with ditches. He still jumps quite high over them but he will go as long as I am saying it's OK. He did take a second to figure out the question as I felt him look at the ditch, but I said go and he went. But as I say, that wasn't a particularly difficult question - you'd already jumped a little, inviting log and had 2 non-jumping strides after that so the ditch didn't come up quite as quickly as yours. A gappy rail as the first part of the combination might have been a different story with mine, I just don't know until I'm faced with having to jump one.

 

[wench]

There is a rails, ditch, rails (with a slopey bit down to the ditch) at Hackthorne Hall, where Burton Hunt PC do their events. Pretty sure I've jumped it to. Although a good few years ago.

 

[wench]

https://www.facebook.com/#!/unaffil...11356334324/10151432380974325/?type=3&theater

this is a photo of it.

 

[star]

Totally agree with this! To add to it, in days of yore, eventing was primarily a jumping test with the dressage as a bit of obedience up front, whereas in more recent times it has become (IMO) a dressage competition with a bit of jumping tagged on the end!

When I was eventing, the XC fences were normally set in hedge lines - island fences were the exception and not the norm. Events were run more in the parks of country estates and on farms as opposed to on purpose built equestrian centres, so again, IMO, there appeared to be more undulating ground to make use of. Also, I would suggest that more eventers used to regularly hunt their horses than appears to be the case nowadays and that to me is the best education you can give a young horse.

Indeed, I would have thought that any horse that had spent the winter hunting in my area would have coped with the Badminton coffin okay.......we were required to traverse old railway cuttings on a number of occasions......pop a small rail, slide down a bank, stride or two over the base (which was often flooded, so became a water jump!), scramble up the bank on the other side and pop rail on way out.

As a matter of interest, do sunken road crossings still crop up at the lower levels? (Rail, jump down off bank, stride or two across bottom, jump up bank and then rail). What other fences are we missing nowadays?

I actually bought my horse originally as a hunter - he has hunted all sorts of country and never stops - done plenty of hideous rails, slippy slidey slopes to ditches with no problems. I'm not sure what provoked his extreme reaction at Badminton - maybe all the people watching or the atmosphere or something else all together. I walked the course and didn't expect him to refuse there as it really didn't look that bad, but on the day there were lots of distractions and I just don't think he understood the question despite having jumped every half/full coffin on every course I've been to in a 100mile radius! I guess it's just disappointing to do all the prep you possibly can do and then be caught out by something like that. Last year it ran the other way round with 2 strides from the hanging rail to the ditch and that rode much better as just that little bit more time for them to take in the question. At BE100 it's always been 1 stride and 1 stride though. I've now qualified for 4 Regional Finals this year so am going to do my best to get back there next year and just have to hope having been through it once he'll not be so worried about it next time!

 

[star]

https://www.facebook.com/#!/unaffil...11356334324/10151432380974325/?type=3&theater

this is a photo of it.

I don't think my horse would even look twice at that - you can't see the ditch until you've jumped the rails and the rails are tiny. The Badminton one is a much steeper slope and a yawning ditch that I struggled to jump over on foot!

 

[star]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...0132206910522.324214.591150521&type=3&theater
The Badminton one

 

[chestnut cob]

I actually bought my horse originally as a hunter - he has hunted all sorts of country and never stops - done plenty of hideous rails, slippy slidey slopes to ditches with no problems. I'm not sure what provoked his extreme reaction at Badminton - maybe all the people watching or the atmosphere or something else all together. I walked the course and didn't expect him to refuse there as it really didn't look that bad, but on the day there were lots of distractions and I just don't think he understood the question despite having jumped every half/full coffin on every course I've been to in a 100mile radius! I guess it's just disappointing to do all the prep you possibly can do and then be caught out by something like that. Last year it ran the other way round with 2 strides from the hanging rail to the ditch and that rode much better as just that little bit more time for them to take in the question. At BE100 it's always been 1 stride and 1 stride though. I've now qualified for 4 Regional Finals this year so am going to do my best to get back there next year and just have to hope having been through it once he'll not be so worried about it next time!

I guess the atmosphere at such a big event must feel totally different to anything else, so could that have had an effect on him or you both? That's all I can think of since it sounds like you couldn't have done any more prep.

ETA - I've just looked at your FB and it's quite a steep slope, or looks it to me anyway!

 

[Lexi_]

As a matter of interest, do sunken road crossings still crop up at the lower levels? (Rail, jump down off bank, stride or two across bottom, jump up bank and then rail). What other fences are we missing nowadays?

I FJ'd one quite similar to that at Bradwall last year, so yup! Suppose it depends very much on the particular event though and whether you have a road on the course that can be crossed naturally without needing to build the whole setup from scratch. It jumped pretty well from memory. Think we had a couple of stops at the A element but no issues with the road part.

 

[BeckyD]

I'm with OV on this. I think it's a fair question. I walked the GR one this year and would have been happy to tackle it on my horse, who has never even been placed at BE90 or BE100 - so we are rubbish in comparison to everyone who actually tackled it. I'm not saying we'd have jumped it clear, but I would have been happy that it was a fair question and a reasonable ask. You can only prepare so much in advance, and on the day it comes down to trust between horse and rider, and bravery of both. It's a championship competition; it's supposed to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Sometimes it takes a step up to a higher level to show up any cracks. But it gives the opportunity to investigate and rectify and come back stronger for it.

I do think there should have been a black flag alternative at GR though

P.S. Yes sunken roads are at Ely, Keysoe, MK and Aston le Walls (to name a few!)

 

[lex2501]

I looked at the course photos and walked the course without any concerns about that fence at all. But my XC machine put in a very last second stop and on watching the videos it looks to be a genuine case of one variable too many for him to work out. I'm not in any way saying it was a question too far for a Championships - in fact I think quite the opposite - but I do feel there should have been a lengthy alternative as many competitors had to walk home from there.

For me there were a number of variables to that fence that when faced all together made it a really big question for a grassroots horse. Had there been 2 strides between element a and b; or a smaller ditch; or flatter ground then perhaps the reuslts would have been different. We often see each variable in isolation at our usual 90/100 courses and I think that's what caught us out - and as many people have said there are very few opportunities to replicate that sort of question in a schooling environment.

It does remind me of Eric Smiley's demo at the IEF where he spoke of the importance of introducing "surprises" to young horses in their training so that they learn to cope with reacting quickly. I think the fence highlighted this as a hole in my own training, and it's something I am definitely putting a lot of thought into with my youngster.

 

[jess_asterix]

The only course near me i can think of with a true coffin and sunken road are both Weston Park and Brand Hall. Both amazing old fashioned courses designed by Janet Plant. I think we need more events like this!

 

[Orangehorse]

I thought the Badminton GR coffin was tough for that level. The first element was high enough that the horse had to be committed to jump before he could see where he was going, it wasn't the sort of fence where they could slow down, have a look and then gather themselves to hop over. I walked the course the day after the competition, so I didn't see anyone tackle it, but the churned up ground in front of the fence told its own story.

However, there is a definite technique in jumping a coffin and it is easy to fall into the trap of pulling up the horse in front of the fence - you are slowing down, the horse thinks you are stopping him. Riders have to slow down before they get to the fence and then ride into it on a short bouncy stride.

 

[Carefreegirl]

Lex2501 Was it the coffin you came off at ? I saw your headcam video and as you approached it I thought blimey where does she go ? Not by the way you were riding but the amount of fences that seemed to be side by side. A lot to take in I should imagine ?

Keysoe have a coffin in their new course. It was fence 4 on the 100 last month. A log not much bigger than a telegraph pole, 3 strides if I remember to the ditch then another 'thin' log on a left hand curve. No slope to speak of as such but I wasn't sure about it so watched a few riders, most horses did look into the ditch but didn't see / hear many problems over the day.

 

[gingerlegs]

Carefreegirl that's this one, if the video will work... rode quite nicely if the jockey got her act together

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152457924652114&set=vb.599717113&type=2&theater

 

[Leg_end]

For those of you in the South and wanting to prep for the GR question then you should head across to Mattingley as they have rails, drop, stride, yawning ditch, stride to rails out. I didn't see the GR slope and whilst this isn't significant it is there and would help with practising

 

[smja]

If you're further north (and if I'm remembering right!), Somerford Park have a little coffin combo (one stride between each element, but v. little fences) and a ditch in a hollow - I think it's got houses either side rather than rails, but the slope is fairly steep on both sides and the ditch has water in it so is something for them to look at.

 

[RachelFerd]

I think it was the gappy rail that made it less inviting. I think we have seen very few gappy rail type fences of late, since they are categorically less inviting and don't tend to produce as nice a jump as really solid things.

I saw many make a lovely job of it though, obviously a fence we need to school over more. With RAILS rather than big heavy logs/houses etc.

I jumped a similar coffin at Syde Park in the novice, but that was yonks ago...