A basic guide to horse colours

thank for all the nice comments.

Just want to add that I am making this based on information from a website not solely from my own knowledge.

I love genetics and learn as much as I can but I by no means an expert.

Have been making these tiles to help myself understand it as much as everyone else :)

Been really busy today so no more tiles yet but I am planning on doing the 'Roan Modifier' tile later.

And for the poster who asked about the photos on the dilutions first page = they are just random, didnt intend for the words to match up with the images. Hope that makes sense.
 
Spring Feather said:
Thanks Faracat for the link. Unfortunately I've read all the links I can on the subject but it all merges into a mush for me :o hence I hoped this basic guide could help me understand. Other more normal colours I'm fine with understanding, just this one that (maybe I have a mind block) still confuses the life out of me.
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Whitehorseproductions has a description that is straightforward. :)

Dominant White is a pattern that was for a long time thought to be part of the sabino gene complex. Like sabino, the amount of white on the coat can vary, though most dominant white horses tend to be heavily patterned or nearly all white. Interestingly, dominant white is frequently found to be the result of a mutation, so loudly marked foals can result from otherwise plain parents. Like frame overo, dominant white is believed to be lethal in its homozygous state, but it is lethal early on in utero.
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and

The idea of a dominant white gene has fallen in and out of favor among students of equine color genetics over the years, and until very recently, it was assumed to be a variation of the sabino pattern. (Sabino appears to be polygenic, and more than one complex of (likely related) genes can produce a sabino-type pattern. Extreme sabinos, all-white horses, are believed to be homozygous.) No evidence could be found of all-white horses that produced like-colored offspring, only those that produced a mix of white, white-patterned, and even solid foals.

In 2007, a Swiss research team found and isolated the dominant white gene. The individuals that tested for the gene were all heterozygous, leading the researchers to speculate that the gene is likely lethal in its homozygous form. These horses were a mix of white and partially white-patterned horses; phenotypically, they appeared to be sabinos.
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PPP - your pony does look like a Seal Brown Roan from the new photos. :)
 
leighby said:
This is awesome, I've always wanted one of those black with a silver mane and tail, but I thought they were a colour combination you only see in quarter horses or mustangs, so out of interest how would you breed one????
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You need the horse to be black based as Silver Dapple does not affect chestnut. If you specifically want a black silver, then you want the horse to not have other dilution or modifying genes (eg no cream or agouti).

So breeding a Black Silver dapple horse that is homozygous (has two copies) for silver, for example, with another black horse would result in a black silver dapple foal.

Silver Dapple is found in miniature horses, Gypsy cobs, Rocky mountain ponies, some european draught breeds etc...
 
I have read this thread with interest as like many interested in colour n at times it takes me a while to absorb or the facts
Esp the creams as so many get confused with dun n infack are buckskin n if course u get in diff shades
Also the coloured n different patterns ( tobiano etc) not just skewbald n piebald
Thanks for posting n allowing us to try n understand
Oh I often see ppl saying their horses blue n white n lemon white but obversely this isn't correct ,,( not sure what's the correct colour for this tho )
 
Faracat said:
All double dilutes should have blue eyes - so the breed standard allowing brown eyes creams is irrelevant really. :p The main problem with double dilutes seems to be sunburn as they have pale skin. Being a double dilute with grey is bad as they are more even prone to melanomas.
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Thanks for replying. I suppose what I'm asking is (trying not to be thick about colour genetics but to me it is very mathematical and that is not my strong point, OH is so I'll have to pin him down) - In your opinion, is there any real relevance to not allowing a blue-eyed cream in a breed standard - any breed standard? By relevance I mean health related (melanoma/sunburn aside) or direct breeding consequences? Or is it just an aesthetic thing? Like I said, when I bought my Connemara colt (grey), I knew I wasn't going to buy a blue-eyed cream because it's not recognised by cpbs - but there were quite a few out there, very nice types indeed. Just wondering as obviously they couldn't be registered and tbh people wanted rid of them as they are considered worthless for showing and breeding as per the breed standard.
 
Spring Feather said:
Scrap that. It can't be a giant marking can it. Gawd this is why I can never understand it. I always think I have it and then I think on it more and realise I don't have it at all :(
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No your are right - dominant white is just a mutation that causes a foal to be born with unpigmented skin and hair, but that can range from a small amount of unpigmented skin and hair (white markings), to being completely covered with unpigmented skin and hair (like one giant marking that covers the whole body - so completely white). It is different to the Sabino gene that causes white markings, that's all. Hope that's easier to understand :)
 
doriangrey said:
Thanks for replying. I suppose what I'm asking is (trying not to be thick about colour genetics but to me it is very mathematical and that is not my strong point, OH is so I'll have to pin him down) - In your opinion, is there any real relevance to not allowing a blue-eyed cream in a breed standard - any breed standard? By relevance I mean health related (melanoma/sunburn aside) or direct breeding consequences? Or is it just an aesthetic thing? Like I said, when I bought my Connemara colt (grey), I knew I wasn't going to buy a blue-eyed cream because it's not recognised by cpbs - but there were quite a few out there, very nice types indeed. Just wondering as obviously they couldn't be registered and tbh people wanted rid of them as they are considered worthless for showing and breeding as per the breed standard.
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I think there can be problems breeding double dilute creams (e.g. cremellos) and greys- Some people who have this cross have found it has very fast growing/agressive melanomas. I don't know if this is a scientifically proven link or just anecdote, though.

Another reason might be to avoid inbreeding to produce double dilutes or other rare colour combinations, which might have negative consequences for the breed.

Or it might just be a traditional aesthetic thing. In general, I believe the BCSP aren't keen on chestnuts or palaminos either, which points to it being a more aesthetic objection.
 
Just as further info:

'Dominant White' is the term used to describe a particular mutation of the KIT gene, which has some function in the development of pigmentary tissues (as well as blood and gonadal tissues)
 
Spring Feather said:
Okay, so it's just a giant marking that covers the whole body?
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No your are right - dominant white is just a mutation that causes a foal to be born with unpigmented skin and hair, but that can range from a small amount of unpigmented skin and hair (white markings), to being completely covered with unpigmented skin and hair (like one giant marking that covers the whole body - so completely white). It is different to the Sabino gene that causes white markings, that's all. Hope that's easier to understand
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Yes - just like all white markings from a small star, to a pinto/coloured to a maximum sabino.



doriangrey said:
Thanks for replying. I suppose what I'm asking is (trying not to be thick about colour genetics but to me it is very mathematical and that is not my strong point, OH is so I'll have to pin him down) - In your opinion, is there any real relevance to not allowing a blue-eyed cream in a breed standard - any breed standard? By relevance I mean health related (melanoma/sunburn aside) or direct breeding consequences? Or is it just an aesthetic thing? Like I said, when I bought my Connemara colt (grey), I knew I wasn't going to buy a blue-eyed cream because it's not recognised by cpbs - but there were quite a few out there, very nice types indeed. Just wondering as obviously they couldn't be registered and tbh people wanted rid of them as they are considered worthless for showing and breeding as per the breed standard.
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Yes, it's completely down to aesthetics. It's also an interesting question to ask - when do large white markings become coloured/pinto markings? They are caused by the same genes, so it really is an arbitrary point when one becomes the other.
 
Thanks Faracat and Rhino for answering my questions. I really need to see a smokey black and smokey cream pic now though because I've no idea what they'd look like. :o

Paint Me Proud thanks for this thread :)
 
Very interesting , Darcy is bay with dapples and roaning to her flanks and rump.hows that ?
She's a pure Tb and I'm sure I've never come across a roan .
 
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Ok, we'll since all the genetics people seem to be here, how do you explain this one right from the beginning with the base colour and then genes affecting the coat? Particularly with reference to the different types of spots. He's an odd one - I've spend a lot of time looking in to it...

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Interesting thread thanks for posting.

Just wanted to correct one assertion that's been made a couple of times on here - dun does exist in Welsh ponies - the first positive test result in the UK was achieved earlier this month for the chestnut dun mare Clanmill Majorette! It is right however most "duns" in the Welsh sections should correctly be referred to as buckskins.
 
purplerain said:
Interesting thread thanks for posting.

Just wanted to correct one assertion that's been made a couple of times on here - dun does exist in Welsh ponies - the first positive test result in the UK was achieved earlier this month for the chestnut dun mare Clanmill Majorette! It is right however most "duns" in the Welsh sections should correctly be referred to as buckskins.
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The bottom (dam's parents etc..) half of the pedigree is missing - is she pure Welsh?
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/clanmill+majorette
 
Just want to add something about bay. horse people seem to get this wrong a lot. The brown parts of a bay aren't caused by diluted black, bay is not a dilute colour. The brown is caused by red pigment (pheaomelanin) rather than black pigment (eumelanin). This red pigment is the same one that causes chestnut colour.
 
Faracat said:
You need the horse to be black based as Silver Dapple does not affect chestnut. If you specifically want a black silver, then you want the horse to not have other dilution or modifying genes (eg no cream or agouti).

So breeding a Black Silver dapple horse that is homozygous (has two copies) for silver, for example, with another black horse would result in a black silver dapple foal.

Silver Dapple is found in miniature horses, Gypsy cobs, Rocky mountain ponies, some european draught breeds etc...
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Thank you Faracat for answering my question :D
 
Is there a simple way of telling the difference between buckskin and dun without dna testing? There is one that i know that has 4 white stockings, would this stop it being a dun?
 
I have looked through this thread and couldn't find the answer to an earlier question, what causes the dapples on a bay, which are very common on Welsh D's. Many years ago I had a dark bay mare who was out of an ArabxTB who I believe was chestnut to Nebo Black Magic, black, she had beautiful dapples in the summer which in her late teens started coming through grey but only in the summer. This happened for a few years and then they reverted back to normal bay dapples. Any ideas? She also had a perfect oval shape of black hair that was softer and longer than the rest of her coat on her face. Sorry no photos, this mare died over 10 years ago so no digital photos of her. I have her daughter but she is black no dapples.
 
Faracat said:
The bottom (dam's parents etc..) half of the pedigree is missing - is she pure Welsh?
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/clanmill+majorette
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Yes she is pure bred Welsh - allbreedpedigree as you know doesn't always have full - or correct - information.

There's a FB group that I follow called Colour Genetics in Welsh Ponies and Cobs that has further details - great excitement on there earlier this month when the dun gene was confirmed by testing. The dun gene has been known to exist in Welsh ponies in the US for longer, but there had never been a positive test in the UK.
 
caseycat said:
Is there a simple way of telling the difference between buckskin and dun without dna testing? There is one that i know that has 4 white stockings, would this stop it being a dun?
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White markings have no connection to a horse being a dun or buckskin.
In duns, besides the eel stripe/leg markings the head will normally be a darker colour than the body which is not usually the case in buckskins.
Horses other than duns can have an eelstripe but this is a different gene from the one inherited with the dun colour.
 
Will be starting on Pinto modifiers tonight. It is likely to need a handful of tiles to explain all the different markings. Hope you all like your coloureds!

Appaloosa will then follow Pinto when I get chance.

Am taking kasper to the park for the first time today late afternoon so if no more tiles appear just assume I'm in an exhausted little heap somewhere!
 
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