a bit of a challenge to barefoot specialists.. help

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mrussell

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Heres the background...

8 year old expointer with reverse tilt pedal bones in both hind feet, underrun heels, white feet and soft soles.

Developing splints both forelegs. Rests left hind and point right fore. Occassionally nods to right fore (suggesting pain in left hind). Full body scans reveal nothing other than chipped pedal bone wing that heals within 6 weeks. Heel wedges are recommended by NEH, my farrier says it will ruin the horse. Horse ruined. Heels collapse, feet break, abscesses abound on all 4 feet.

Feet are encased in Equicasts and natural balance shes fitted. Horse sound.

Casts removed. Wet weather arrives. Horse goes footy again.

Horse does not suit quiet work, does not box rest, gallops when turned out. Fields are on slopes and are heavy clay thats rock hard in the summer and ankle deep in the winter. No where to hack that isnt road work. No time to hack out in walk. Sand school at home. Horse expected to compete next year. Fed adlib haylage, chaff, simple systems lucienuts, green gold and oil. Hoof supplement added to all meals. Shod every 5 weeks.

OK... your suggests please for
immediate action
ongoing recovery
long term management
 
Your request is very abrupt and direct. Are you sure you are interested in treating this using barefoot as a solution? If so, it will take time, it will need walk work, so before any of us can help you practically the "time" issue needs to be taken seriously.

Barefoot can address the obvious foot balance issues you are describing but without a dedicated owner to follow the routine of care and exercise this type of horse will need to recover it would be a waste of time for all concerned.

Various shoeing protocols will help him be sound temporarily but unless the basic foot is given a chance to get back to its natural shape the ultimate lameness is inevitable.
 
Can't offer any advise as still learning (a lot!) myself but can highly recommend the following books.

Jaime Jackson:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Horse-Owner...0768/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1291900681&sr=8-1

Pete Ramey:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Making-Natu...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1291900696&sr=1-1

The JJ book is a prerequisite to the PR book although still makes a lot of sense on it's own.

I think they would answer a lot of your questions; I found they did for me although I have a whole load of new questions to ask the AANHCP practicioner when he comes!

Good luck
 
Andalucian said:
Your request is very abrupt and direct. Are you sure you are interested in treating this using barefoot as a solution? If so, it will take time, it will need walk work, so before any of us can help you practically the "time" issue needs to be taken seriously.

Barefoot can address the obvious foot balance issues you are describing but without a dedicated owner to follow the routine of care and exercise this type of horse will need to recover it would be a waste of time for all concerned.

Various shoeing protocols will help him be sound temporarily but unless the basic foot is given a chance to get back to its natural shape the ultimate lameness is inevitable.
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Direct ? Abrupt ? I wouldnt waste my time asking if I wasnt interesting in knowing whether those with experience think its possible within my limitations. Its not a trick question I can assure you.

I'm a dedicated owner (otherwise I wouldnt have 4 horses who quite frankly would have been passed over or long since destroyed...) with my own yard and the facilities listed.

I take it then you dont think I can make barefoot work for him barefoot ?
 
Take it easy mrussell!

First - maybe get a good experienced trimmer to look at him. Then think about leaving this set of shoes for a lot longer than 5 weeks as long as 10 becuase they won;t be growint that fast at the moment- then take them off. Shoes, even natural balance, cause under-run heels. A proper trim and time out and he will improve his feet. The sole will thicken up but my experience is that it takes more time to get an improvement in the sole if the horse has been shod most of its life

Diet - think about no grains and redsucing any sugars as far as you can

Then let movement do the rest. You can't "fix" this problem - you can only grow it out.

You don't say if your farrier touches his soles, and in any case sensitivity does not necessarily mean thin soles - there may be other reasons for sensitivity.

And - white hooves aren't soft, poor hooves are soft. I have 8 white hooves in my herd and believe me they are every bit as hard as the coloured or stripey ones - they are all the same colour past the water mark!

But those are just my opinions! ;)
 
mrussell said:
Horse expected to compete next year.
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You can expect what you like but the horse will tell you when it's ready and you MUST listen to it if you want a barefoot approach to work

You will have to find the time to do many, many hours of gradual conditioning work with this horse. The negative coffin bone angle is a big issue and you must allow him time to rebuild his heel and rebalance the coffin bone before he does too much. If he won't hack gently you'll just have to hand walk him in a stallion bit and chain if necessary. You'll get fit but it will save his life.

I have done a similar horse. It took from September to July for him to be ready to jump again competitively, and I put a LOT of time into him. Roadwork is great but you may need to invest in boots to do enough of it until his feet harden up.
 
I may be being dim, but what is 'NEH'? Is this your horse? You might find recommendations for a trimmer on the UKNHCP forum, they are very friendly on there.
 
NEH is Newmarket I think - with Sue Dyson there as "the" recognised lameness specialist in the country, often quoted on this forum. Not sure they know that much about barefoot rehabs though. They are fans of "remedial" shoeing and drug treatments, from things that people post on here.

Mrussel you need to ask WHY your horse chipped a pedal bone wing, I think, to get to the bottom of its foot problems.
 
cptrayes said:
NEH is Newmarket I think - with Sue Dyson there as "the" recognised lameness specialist in the country, often quoted on this forum. Not sure they know that much about barefoot rehabs though. They are fans of "remedial" shoeing and drug treatments, from things that people post on here.

Mrussel you need to ask WHY your horse chipped a pedal bone wing, I think, to get to the bottom of its foot problems.
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NEH = Newmarket EQuine Hospital. Sue is at the Animal Health Trust .

I asked why but the only conclusion was that he stands on the bulbs of his heel and exposes the bone to damage in that way. The P3 is reverse angled hence why they put him in wedge shoes once the chip healed...and the shoes made him lame within weeks. He stabilised in NB shoes for a while but only really came sound in the Equicasts.

Knowing what I know, Im dubious about leaving him unshod as he suffers so badly and working full time with 4 horses to do, we simply dont have the time to do the conditioning.
 
It's the expectation of competing which is the problem if you have no time. If you have no time then the best you can do is de-shoe the horse, trim it properly and regularly, feed it low sugar and high fibre and turn it out for a year on poor grazing on the flat and see what happens.

To be honest, if you seriously expect this horse to compete and cannot spare the time to rehab it, and you are going to try and compete it this coming season, then I pity the poor horse whether you have shoes on it or not.
 
cptrayes said:
and high fibre and turn it out for a year on poor grazing on the flat and see what happens.It's the expectation of competing which is the problem if you have no time. If you have no time then the best you can do is de-shoe the horse, trim it properly and regularly, feed it low sugar

To be honest, if you seriously expect this horse to compete and cannot spare the time to rehab it, and you are going to try and compete it this coming season, then I pity the poor horse whether you have shoes on it or not.
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I dont have flat fields so that rules it out then... even if I could find the time, I cant level my paddocks.

He is ridden 5 days a week, goes hacking, schooling, showing and out and about. He is loved and looked after. He gets turned out, stabled and company. He has blossomed since we had him... and we wouldnt do anything to harm him. Including rushing into a situation like taking his shoes off if we cant make it a success for him. Why do you feel he needs pitying ?
 
Plenty of people have flat fields for rent for around £10 a horse per week. It depends how much time effort and money you are prepared to invest in this horse, and it doesn't seem like it's much. I owned a very much loved horse with spavins and he was re-homed onto flat land within two weeks of my vet telling me that it was unfair to keep him in the Peak Park.

If what you tell us is true he's LAME in shoes. He is IN PAIN. He's in a condition where he breaks his pedal bones! You don't have the time to rehab him barefoot and you won't pay the money or make the effort to rehab him slowly another way by turnout on flatter, better, ground. And you state that you "expect" him to compete him "next year" which starts in less than four weeks time, or four months if we take it that you mean next competing season. THAT's why I pity him, the poor fellow.

Is he lame or not? If he's lame why is he ridden 5 days a week? Your posts are beginning to make no sense, sorry.
 
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Hello,
I had a horse with negative tilt pedal bones in both hinds.
Tried wedges, told by very experienced remedial farrier will
have wedges forever.

Got feet re-xrayed, second opinion, toes too long on the
fronts, 3 mos later, no more wedges needed on hinds,
pedal bone positive angle confirmed by xray, enough
sole, barefoot. Mine did have quite a bit of physio to
accelerate the recovery of the rest of him that had
been compensating.

Good luck - dene
 
cptrayes said:
Plenty of people have flat fields for rent for around £10 a horse per week. It depends how much time effort and money you are prepared to invest in this horse, and it doesn't seem like it's much. I owned a very much loved horse with spavins and he was re-homed onto flat land within two weeks of my vet telling me that it was unfair to keep him in the Peak Park.

If what you tell us is true he's LAME in shoes. He is IN PAIN. He's in a condition where he breaks his pedal bones! You don't have the time to rehab him barefoot and you won't pay the money or make the effort to rehab him slowly another way by turnout on flatter, better, ground. And you state that you "expect" him to compete him "next year" which starts in less than four weeks time, or four months if we take it that you mean next competing season. THAT's why I pity him, the poor fellow.

Is he lame or not? If he's lame why is he ridden 5 days a week? Your posts are beginning to make no sense, sorry.
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Hes just recovering from a bruised sole (from galloping about in the paddocks during the snow) and even if he wasnt, we wouldnt be riding at the moment as the lanes are frozen... as is the menage.

The only times he has been lame was when he had broken his pedal bone, or when hes had bruised heels (see prev posts re; wedge shoes). The rest of the time hes happy in his work and as sound as a pound. The reason I am asking about barefoot is from a learning point of view.

I will overlook your rude remarks about what I am prepared to do for my horses as I presume youre basing this on your own circle of friends. I dont have an endless pot of money, thats true but if it was in his interests, I'd lassoo the moon. I cant change the lack of time we have however hence why I asked whether it was feasible to take this horse barefoot.

May I ask why you waited for the vet to tell you to move your horse to flatter ground ? I wouldnt consider keeping horse with spavins on hilly ground. I cant actually see the relevance of it being flat for a barefoot horse ? and before you rush out yet another insult, perhaps you'd actually direct some energy into being clear about what you mean.

Thanking you all for your CONSTRUCTIVE comments...
 
You don't like what I say, so it's time to attack me instead is it??? I live on hills at 1100 feet. I followed my vet's advice to rehabilitate the horse, which failed, and was then advised to have him moved to flat ground. That advice was acted on within 14 days.

If you want to work out why you feel that some of us are being rude to you (which we are not) I suggest that you re-read your own posts from the beginning. You told us the horse was lame with his foot conformation problems, not that he only had a bruised sole. To be honest you are coming across more as someone looking to bait barefooters than someone who really wants to learn about how you might barefoot this horse.

You have a horse with negative coffin bone angle. If you cannot see the relevance of that horse trying to move uphill on a steep slope in poor footing to its feet and tendons, then I am baffled. Flatter, better draining land will also be much better for his feet than standing in wet clay all winter if you did want to turn him away barefoot to see what happens (in view of the fact that you have made it so clear that you have no time to hack him slowly as he would require if kept in work). Many horses also do badly out full time on badly draining land.

Please don't take this horse barefoot. You are almost certain to fail with it in the situation which you have described, and I have little doubt that you would be quick to blame barefoot for that failure, since you are so reluctant to take on board any of the advice that committed barefooters are offering you on this forum.
 
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I don't understand why, if there is time to ride him 5 days a week, there isn't time to do the work necessary to rehab his feet? Might it not be better to put the time into getting him sound now so you can enjoy him for so much longer?

It took me two years to get my first rehab properly sound, but there wasn't all the knowledge and support available then that there is now. I regret that I put him through such an unnecessarily long period of discomfort - but he was in considerable discomfort with shoes. He is now 17 yo and sound and happily competing in veteran RoR classes.

It really is worth it in the long run.
 
cptrayes said:
You don't like what I say, so it's time to attack me instead is it??? I live on hills at 1100 feet. I followed my vet's advice to rehabilitate the horse, which failed, and was then advised to have him moved to flat ground. That advice was acted on within 14 days.

If you want to work out why you feel that some of us are being rude to you (which we are not) I suggest that you re-read your own posts from the beginning. You told us the horse was lame with his foot conformation problems, not that he only had a bruised sole. To be honest you are coming across more as someone looking to bait barefooters than someone who really wants to learn about how you might barefoot this horse.

You have a horse with negative coffin bone angle. If you cannot see the relevance of that horse trying to move uphill on a steep slope in poor footing to its feet and tendons, then I am baffled. Flatter, better draining land will also be much better for his feet than standing in wet clay all winter if you did want to turn him away barefoot to see what happens (in view of the fact that you have made it so clear that you have no time to hack him slowly as he would require if kept in work). Many horses also do badly out full time on badly draining land.

Please don't take this horse barefoot. You are almost certain to fail with it in the situation which you have described, and I have little doubt that you would be quick to blame barefoot for that failure, since you are so reluctant to take on board any of the advice that committed barefooters are offering you on this forum.
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Caroline, you do make me laugh !

You told me that if I wanted advice about why my boy appeared to have bruised laminae, to post about it asking barefoot folk for advice and youve done nothing but be rude since I did so. Youve accused me of not having my horses best interests at heart and considering rehoming him to someone who does.
To be honest, you seem to be trolling my thread.

Thankyou to all the people who have offered CONSTRUCTIVE advice. And to anyone thinking about going barefoot, I hope this ONE individual hasnt put you off.
 
intouch said:
I don't understand why, if there is time to ride him 5 days a week, there isn't time to do the work necessary to rehab his feet? Might it not be better to put the time into getting him sound now so you can enjoy him for so much longer?

It took me two years to get my first rehab properly sound, but there wasn't all the knowledge and support available then that there is now. I regret that I put him through such an unnecessarily long period of discomfort - but he was in considerable discomfort with shoes. He is now 17 yo and sound and happily competing in veteran RoR classes.

It really is worth it in the long run.
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Sorry Ive distracted by the troll *rolls eyes*... what I mean is that I dont have any EXTRA time around what we have now... and from what folk have been saying, you need to spend time walking in hand on level surfaces... which would mean either boxing him up after work when its dark to take him somewhere else or leaving the other horses unridden and leading him up and down the drive for an (as yet) unspecified length of time every day in the dark.

Hope this makes sense as Im late for work and in a rush.... as usual !
 
Don't get too hung up on the level surface. Main thing is to keep him moving and allow the feet to be "worked" as far as he is comfortable

Remeber when he is barefoot he will be conditioning his feet 24 hours a day

If I look at my guys feet at he moment - they are being rolled and abraded by the snow and ice - all surfaces will do somethign

But think about it this way - if you take what you believe to be a thin sole - will it funciton better in a sshared support role, or forced into a bridging role by peripheral support of a shoe. Mechanically, it's being made very hard for him.
 
mrussell said:
Direct ? Abrupt ? I wouldnt waste my time asking if I wasnt interesting in knowing whether those with experience think its possible within my limitations. Its not a trick question I can assure you.

I'm a dedicated owner (otherwise I wouldnt have 4 horses who quite frankly would have been passed over or long since destroyed...) with my own yard and the facilities listed.

I take it then you dont think I can make barefoot work for him barefoot ?
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I don't think "you" can make barefoot work for him, but that doesn't mean that barefoot wouldn't work for him. I'm sorry, but I also pity the horse.
 
I wouldnt consider keeping horse with spavins on hilly ground.
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One of mine has bilateral spavins - and I keep him on hilly ground and sloping fields - best thing for him. He's doing just great on it. As long as it isn;t the kind of hill you need crampons to climb, I'd not have a problem with my lad being on it.
 
mrussell said:
Caroline, you do make me laugh !

You told me that if I wanted advice about why my boy appeared to have bruised laminae, to post about it asking barefoot folk for advice and youve done nothing but be rude since I did so. Youve accused me of not having my horses best interests at heart and considering rehoming him to someone who does.
To be honest, you seem to be trolling my thread.

Thankyou to all the people who have offered CONSTRUCTIVE advice. And to anyone thinking about going barefoot, I hope this ONE individual hasnt put you off.
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Please do not use my forename as if you are familiar with me. To me you are a total stranger.

I have not suggested that you rehome your horse, I have suggested that you rent some flatter grazing for him.

I have not said that you do not have his best interests at heart but I do believe that your management of him is misguided.

I have given you my constructive advice and you have rejected it. I will repeat it:

- give the horse a barefoot conditioning with hours of work on flat roads, in boots if necessary, led if he will not settle to ridden work

- you say that you can't do this, so my alternative suggestion is to turn him away on flat well draining ground

- you say you can't do this, so my advice is that in your current circumstances he is NOT a candidate for barefoot.

All of that is constructive advice. The shame is that you don't want to hear it.
 
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I think its hard to give advice without seeing a horse in the flesh as even photos are misleading. From your description of his problems, your facilities and time that you have available I think it would be difficult to rehab barefoot, not impossible though.
Without help from someone who is experienced with this sort of thing you maybe a bit stuck. What does your farrier think?
 
My farrier is a genuis in that he will try anything for the horses.. he was the one who tried him in equicasts when his walls broke down after the heel wedge debacle. He aslo shoes my old boy in Cyteks (who also has reverse tilt P3's and paperthin soles) and he is now sound and has been for 7 years. We would ideally like to see the horse in question in Cyteks as hey change the loading of the hoof, the break over and stimulate the sole BUT they dont come small enough.

The more I hear from you guys, the more interested I am becoming in giving it a whirl.

Brucea - my paddocks are gently sloping but the reason I mentioned it my summary was that I am concerned about his sloping when hes hoofing down them with his turbo button pressed in.

Sadly Caroline, you have leapt on everything I have said to try and troll my thread and now seem to be attempting to bail yourself out by trying to come across as genuinly interested *sigh*. Still, I wont let it put me off.

Thanks all...

ps.. can I aslo ask your opinion in trying half and half to start off with ? (ie shod infront and not behind ?)
 
Barefoot is very simple. Its the peeps that make it complicated.

If soles are soft then diet is a common cause. A healthy hoof can take any amount of slush and stay good.

Horses are like people. Some can put up with more junk food than others.

De sugar the diet, take it back to plain hay as much as possible. Feed just enough bucket feed to supply vits and mins (Kwik Beet with a good supplement would do). Avoid 'bagged and packaged' feeds as they often contain cheap fillers, additives and sugar (disguised with fancy names).

With the bacteria in the cecum in good balance the horse will be getting plenty of VFA to keep on the condition and provide energy. For very hard working horses you can either add more calories with something like micronised linseed.

All horses can grow a good foot, some take longer than others. There is no mystery and you don't need special facilities.

Diet and appropriate exercise. If you can work your horse five times a week this goal should be attainable. Hills or no.

You might find it helpful to have hands on advice from someone with considerable experience. I haven't clocked which part of the country you are from, but if you want to pm me I might know someone that could help if you are interested.
 
I have been reluctant to reply to this post since being referred to as a 'barefoot vulture' as I thought the OP was setting up a trick.

However as you appear to be genuine, I will give my two penneth worth.

I am not a barefoot specialist, just an enthusiastic amateur so my only advice would be to contact Nic Barker from Rockley Farm. I am not suggesting you send the horse there (although that wouldn't be a bad idea) but I am suggesting you get advice from someone experienced in rehabbing hopeless cases (not suggesting your horse is one:)).

No professional trimmer is going to give advice on a public forum without seeing the horse first.

Your horse has a few things going on and he needs specialist help to be successful barefoot. If you just email Nic, I am sure she can advise where to start - or even if it possible.

Having a barefoot horse is very easy once the right start is made.

I am sorry your horse has so many problems. He is lucky to have an owner willing to look outside the box.

Good luck.
 
Thanks everyone for giving me your tuppeneth.

Can I also ask whether any of you have had long term success (ie continued riding your competitively) for more than 2 years after going barefoot. I'm trying to myth bust here as Ive been told horses invariably go wrong again after a couple of years of being barefoot.
 
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