'a bute a day' - ethics and long term effects

[lexibell]

Following on from previous post

I have a beautiful cob who has developed arthritis in his coffin joint as a result of complications during a keratoma surgery.

he is currently summering out and taking a break to see if a bit of rest and recoperation will improve things.

Vets dont think theres much medically that can be done for him.

Blacksmith has suggested another 6 months off to let his hoof heel from the trauma of 3 surgeries in 3 weeks over christmas. then bring back in at the end of summer, put some shoes on, give him a bute a day for a week or two, bring him slowly back in to very light work and see how things go.

Lots of people seem to manage lameness issues with a shot of bute every couple of days or so, how ethical is this?? I asked rossdales vets about it and they kind of avoided giving a straight answer, but sent me away with a box of 100!!!!!!

what are peoples thoughts or experiences ?????

 

[abbieandfiona]

Ive decided i dont want to go down that route with my girl when the time comes as she has had liver issues long term the bute will make these issues worse. The day she cant be ridden is the day i will let her go as she cant cope living out it would be cruel for me to keep her in a field. When i first got her she went lame and had to have DMSO and bute for 3 months to get her sound which worked and she was 6 at the time so thats the only reason that she had treatment but i had no idea her liver was already damaged.

However i know of quite a few living on bute and seem to be fine so guess as long as you get bloods done every so often to make sure its not causing liver or kidney issues you should be ok.

 

[TinselRider]

I cannot answer the ethics question for you but I know many people who bute their horses every day (I know of one person who SJ's in the area and most of their horses are buted to the eyeballs for it).

I wouldn't have thought a few weeks on bute wouls have any adverse effect?

 

[Bills]

This is a tricky one and tbh I think it is all personal preference and what you feel is right for your horse.

BUT... my opinion is that I personally wouldn't want to ride a horse on bute as that is just masking the problem.
I don't disagree with starting off on bute in light work, weaning the horse off and then see if he stays sound in light work with no bute, but i don't see bute as a permanent solutution.

My old man fractured his leg 8 months ago and after 7 1/2 months box rest we are now able to turn him out in the day and ride him in walk once a week, and slowly progress from there. But he isn't on bute at all and is sound *touches wood* The day he doesn't walk up sound is the day I will stop riding him. And the day he isn't field sound is the day he will be PTS. My vet said at the start of all this that if he was to be field sound on bute would I be happy with this, my answer was no, field sound with no bute fine, but i wouldnt keep him on bute for the rest of his life.

Sorry for the ramble, hope this makes sense lol!

 

[Darkly_Dreaming_Dex]

My older cob has been on bute since 2005 when aggresive DJD/low ringbone was diagnosed with a poor prognosis of staying even field sound.I immediately retired him from showing but he adores hunting in the winter on the softer ground- i am very careful on the roads with him. He got 1/2 a bute a day at grass and 1 bute on riding days. His liver is fine. I have always fed milk thistle to support his body as well BUT since he went onto natural balance shoes, he has been off the bute except on saturdays when he has 1 for breakfast as he loves his long hacks with his sharer.
This winter he will be hunted by my husband who has just started riding again after breaking his back last year..

 

[Persephone]

I had an elderly very arthritic mare who had a bute a day for the last ten years of her life. The bute made it possible for me to be able to hop on her or walk her in hand around the village EVERY day to get her old legs working She would then be turned out all day and thrived very well on this routine.

She didn't ever develop any liver problems. I believe that is 10 years she wouldn't have had, but for the bute.

All you have to do IMO is balance Quantity of life V Quality of life. I know which I would prefer!

 

[CrazyMare]

Bute is a non steroidal anti imflamatory - same as Ibuprofen.

I am potentially having to look at this with my mare - given as at the moment I can barely move without taking Ibuprofen due to seized muscles its all quite hard!

What I have is a fit 18 year old mare, who is a 'busy' character, shes been on off lame for a couple of weeks, but has suddenly got worse, so she is off to the vets - now if they say this is age related, and my options are to give her some bute on her difficult days then I will - it is the same as my ibuprofen on my difficult days. I would do this so she could continue the life she loves and lives for - she doesn't like living out 24/7, nor does she like being left at home when the other one goes to a party, or even if someone goes for a hack without her!!

Yes long term bute has its issues, but you have to look at things as a whole - my ibuprofen has issues too - namely stomach issues.

 

[lexibell]

Persophone I agree totally, hes worth more than wasting away in the field. he is the most beautiful horse I have ever known, and hes a fighter, i'll do everything in my power to help him, but the day he decides enough is enough I will let him go with dignity.

at the moment he is field sound with no bute, and is 99% sound in a trot up on straight and soft ground, his problems are on a turn and on the hard.

 

[lindsayH]

My permanently lame boy has been on daily bute for 3 years, apart from a month or so in spring and autumn when the ground is good. He developed gut damage causing constant slight diarrhoea which means I've had to stop it. He recovered quickly and has put on lots of condition now, but I always knew there would come a time where I would have to stop giving it, but he would be too lame without it. He will be put down in the autumn before the ground gets too bad for him to cope. It's a quality of life decision, but he's had 3 happy years so I feel like I've done the right thing by him. Had he been an old horse, I may not have done the same thing, but he's only 9.

 

[TaROOTaRoo]

I have had this battle with Bute a while ago, my mare was diagnosed with OCD in both shoulders and hocks at the age of 3, they said to turn her away for 6 months (after surgery) with 1 bute a day upped to 2 if bad, 6 months turned into a year which turned into forever, she is 18.3hh so a bute a day not really alot for her. In the end she was on bute for over 3 years some days she would have 4 if bad because of the cold weather! My friend suggested trying Devils relief which was natural so I did to give her a break. She was happy and sound, now at the age of 9 no liver damage and a happy horse.
On the other hand my youngster went lame and I was told to give her B&B for 7-10 days after 4 days rest she fell very ill nearly lost her, turned out to be a gastric ulcer most likely to be caused by they bute.
Its a tough decision but I will still go for the bute option even after my recent experience.

 

[fatpiggy]

If your mother developed arthritis and was told she was to take a couple of aspirin every day for the rest of her life to make things a bit easier, would you question the morality of it? Of course not! Liver problems are not guaranteed to happen, even after long term use. You will know when it is all too much for your horse and time is up, and that is where a much-loved animal has the advantage over humans who have to struggle on to a "natural" end.

 

[TicTac]

I agree with you fatpiggy but to be honest, if my horse were diagnosed with a permanent unsoundness then it wouldn't be on bute but in the great green pasture in the sky. I have been there with that scenario and give a previous horse of mine a chance and in the end he remained unsound, so I called it a day.

I think that a horse must have a purpose in life and if it can't do a usefull job however small that may be, then it's no fair on the animal. This is just my view and I appreciate that no everybody thinks the same. Medication should only be given long term if it's effects are beneficial.

 

[charlie76]

My horse who developed navicular was on 2 a day for 2 years. I had him blood tested every 6 months to check there wasn't any damage, he was fine.
At the end of the day if the bute didn't finish him off the lameness would have.

 

[1928sky]

I always think that a horse will feel arthritis in its joints but liver disease caused by bute normally has to be pretty far advanced before you would get symptoms from it, and it would take a while to cause this amount of damage in most normal horses. Therefore I could give my horse several painfree years from their arthritis and the day they were unwell/ not tolerating bute they would have to be PTS. In human terms ibuprofen has risks associated with it of which there are many and potentially serious ones too, you would happily pop one a day if it gave you relief from pain and you probably wouldn't stop taking it until the risks outweighed the benefits.

 

[TheresaW]

My boy is 13 now and was diagnosed with ringbone and arthritis of the felock in his near fore about 5 years ago. 18 months later, he was diagnosed with arthritis in both hocks. He has been on a bute a day which keeps him sound for the last 2 years. We hack, do the odd fun ride, and he does a little bit of jumping with the kids at the yard now and again as he loves jumping, but I don't jump. He is happy and lives a pretty full life. He is a big lump of a horse and the vet has said that his one a day is a very small dose for a horse of his size. I know he will only get worse over the years, and as I have to increase his dosage, I will start to weigh up his quality of life.

 

[MissMincePie&Brandy]

I put my very old boy (who passed away on Friday) onto daily bute 18 months ago. He was very old, and for me, it was about giving him an extra year or two if I could. I wouldn't put a younger horse onto daily bute for an indefinite long period of time, as it is quite invasive to their organs, and can lead to further damage.

Have you tried the herbal supplements yet? I had my boy on Feedmarks zerobute for 18 months before I started the real bute. The pain relieving effects are not as obvious as bute, but they do definitely work to a degree.

Danilon is supposed to be kinder than bute. Although you would need to look into that and discuss it with the vet.

Personally I wouldn't have a young horse on bute long term, unless there was no other option and I'd tried all the alternatives first.

 

[Biscuit]

If bute is given according to the vet's instructions to improve the quality of a horses life at the end of its working years, I think if anything it would be unethical NOT to give it. I agree with the above posters it is all about the quality of life.

That being said, I do not think bute should be given unless the cause of the problem has been investigated and a vet has concluded that a "cure" is not available. Bute is not a "cure", but could potentially make living with the issue easier, at least for some time.

 

[Finlib]

Danilon is less of a problem with side effects than bute .
I am happy to keep my mare on 1 / 2 danilon a day to keep her sound enough for light work .
When the joint medication and danilon stops working then I will say good bye to her but until then she has a really good quality of life. If she wasn't on danilon then I would have to pts anyway as she is quite lame without it.
On danilon she is fine so it will give me extra quality time with her.

 

[lexibell]

He is currently on Buteless Equine America Suppliment, doesnt seem to be doing much but only started it less than a fortnight ago so will perservere until Ive used it up and may try different one before I rule them out.

I just wish I knew what to do, wish I could find a miracle cure for him and make him better. I know I cant.

I will give it a few months and see what, if any difference the bute makes, it may not even bring him sound



Thanks everyone for sharing experiences, I feel I know a bit more of what to expect if nothing else.

 

[Alibear]

I was going to say similar, surely with the invention of Danillon the liver problems are now a mute point?
My old boy is retired due to lameness issues and whilst not on anything yet I won't begrudge him a danillon a day if he needs that to keep him happy for a few more years.

Mind you I'm still realing from reading that horses brains can't form the concept of hope, so when in pain they have no way of thinking that tomorrow might be better. If that's true it makes me want to be more generous with pain meds and more decisive when the time comes.

 

[lexibell]

Alibear is this true? where was that article?? I want to go home and give him the whole box of damn bute if thats correct!!

 

[mattilda]

My old lad had arthritis in his hocks and I had him on Danilon for the last couple of years he was with us (he died 29/4). It made him much more comfortable and he hacked out quite happily until the week before we lost him.
I am also giving my old mare 1 Danilon a day for similar reasons. If I had to give more on a regular basis then I think a decision has to be made.

 

[fatpiggy]

Tictac, my horse is permanently unsound due to arthritis. She is 27 and quite happy pootling about in the field with her friends. She is on metacam as it is the only antiinflammatory which can be taken in conjunction with barbiturates - she also has been treated for epilepsy for 12 years. Her job? To be my pet. She has worked hard for me in the 15 years I've owned her and I owe her a nice retirement.

 

[china]

my vet doesnt even give me the option, he only gives me danilon which is the new bute if you like. prince is on 2 a day for the forseable future untill he is sound or if he comes sound. but the vets has mentioned injecting his back and his sacroliac. i think i will have to exremley consider his ridden career if he will have to have injections for the rest of his life to keep him sound.

 

[chaps89]

For a few weeks I would have thought any long lasting effect should be neglible provided her liver is already healthy etc surely?!
My horse was diagnosed with DJD in his forefeet 3 years ago now. And has been on a bute a day near enough every day since. He's not lame in anyway, he just scuffs his feet slightly and doesn't move as freely. He's a happy horse living a nice life, I certainly couldn't put him down because of it. I would rather give him a bute a day and for him to be comfortable, have his liver tested every now and then and give him a good rest of his life and if he gets liver failure I would pts straight away. Much rather that than keep him going on for years and years and being miserable because he's in pain.

 

[Coffee_Bean]

Personally I think a danilon a day is a far preferable option to death. If I had arthritis, I would take painkillers even though they had side effects, so I could improve my quality of life. I feel the same about the horses. And I think that if you can't keep a horse doing nothing in a field, then surely it works for everyone to keep it in light work on bute? If the bute finishes it off, well the lameness would have got there first.

 

[TarrSteps]

Mind you I'm still realing from reading that horses brains can't form the concept of hope, so when in pain they have no way of thinking that tomorrow might be better. If that's true it makes me want to be more generous with pain meds and more decisive when the time comes.

Stands to reason since, horses live very much in the "now" so they are going to think however things are, that's the way they're going to be forever, that is, if they think of "forever" at all. And they're hardwired to be "reactive" anyway. It doesn't do for prey animals to do too much thinking anyway, as whiling away the time with philosophy is a quick way to get eaten.

Anyway, PEOPLE in chronic pain have been known to kill themselves because of it, so I suspect horses would take the meds if it WAS left up to them. Yes, we know the effects and it's our job to weigh the odds for them, and manage the risks, but if you've ever had a chronically or even intensely painful condition, you know how incredibly motivating even the possible relief from pain can be.

I do think it's a different question than whether or not to medicate a horse in the short term to reach a certain goal or medicating a very young horse that can't do a job - even if that's be a pet - and which will likely live long enough to fall prey to the risks of long term NSAID use. And I think it's actually LESS suspect than simply turning a horse out somewhere, where it's still in pain, but people don't have to look at it. There is no question that horses have to move to survive - gut function and circulation depends on it - and that low level exercise actually helps arthritic conditions so that has to be factored in as well.

For what it's worth, I know some older "schoolmaster" types that need what North Americans euphemistically call "management" but do well on as little as half a dose every other day or a minimal dose during stressful periods, provided the other aspects of their care are up to standard. It's worth experimenting to see how little help can make a difference, at the very least because it gives you somewhere to go as the degeneration progresses.

 

[NOISYGIRL]

I use danilon instead of bute its supposed to not do so much damage long term. My view is if my horse didn't have it he'd probably go downhill quicker than if he's having it, he has one a day. I'd rather him be comfortable than not

 

[NOISYGIRL]

Personally I think a danilon a day is a far preferable option to death. If I had arthritis, I would take painkillers even though they had side effects, so I could improve my quality of life. I feel the same about the horses. And I think that if you can't keep a horse doing nothing in a field, then surely it works for everyone to keep it in light work on bute? If the bute finishes it off, well the lameness would have got there first.

I agree with your view, you put it better than I did

 

[Hullabaloo]

Personally I think a danilon a day is a far preferable option to death. If I had arthritis, I would take painkillers even though they had side effects, so I could improve my quality of life. I feel the same about the horses. And I think that if you can't keep a horse doing nothing in a field, then surely it works for everyone to keep it in light work on bute? If the bute finishes it off, well the lameness would have got there first.

Totally agree. I know a couple of horses who are on bute but still enjoying life in light work. This is exactly the approach I would take with my horse if I'm ever in this position.