Jeef Perky
New User
Yeah, that's a very obvious dun dorsal stripe.
A Colour Genetics Guide
- Thread starter MatHalTed
- Start date
Cloball
Well-Known Member
@Marigold4 they do look like leg stripes but I agree her coat doesn't have the right dilution I wonder if she is Nd1 instead. I think @Caol Ila ha a mare with Nd1 that is similar.
Marigold4
Well-Known Member
I think that must be right - that she is Nd1. Main thing is that we got her colour right on her passport. She IS a bay dun!
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Nd1 to me too - generates primitive markings but no dilution. She’s def bay 
FieldOrnaments
Well-Known Member
My little one is homozygous nd1 and is really pale. It causes the pigment to be distributed asymmetrically in the hair shaft the same way dundoes but to a lesser degree, so does cause slight dilution in some individuals
this is an old pic, she's nowhere near as fat now, but unfortunately she has cushings and her coat quality has gone downhill as a result
this is an old pic, she's nowhere near as fat now, but unfortunately she has cushings and her coat quality has gone downhill as a result
Marigold4
Well-Known Member
Sorry to hear she has cushings. She looks very much the same colour as mine, doesn't she?My little one is homozygous nd1 and is really pale. It causes the pigment to be distributed asymmetrically in the hair shaft the same way dundoes but to a lesser degree, so does cause slight dilution in some individuals
View attachment 143295
this is an old pic, she's nowhere near as fat now, but unfortunately she has cushings and her coat quality has gone downhill as a result
rhino
Well-Known Member
Dun is first and foremost a dilution gene. Your horse has no coat dilution, I’d agree with bay nd1 (which is not dun 1 gene). She’s not bay dun IMO.
Marigold4
Well-Known Member
That's interesting. So she is a bay then and the stripe along her back and into her tail, and primitive markings on her legs are irrelevant? And any horse with a bay colour cannot be a dun?
rhino
Well-Known Member
The primitive markings are not irrelevant but are down to the nd1 gene, not the dun gene. There are lots of different shades of bay dun - mine is very ‘yellow’ but they do look diluted in comparison with a bay.
How is your girl bred? There’s not that much dun in uk breeds, relatively speaking.
How is your girl bred? There’s not that much dun in uk breeds, relatively speaking.
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Marigold4
Well-Known Member
Her sire is Killour Star, a buckskin connemara. Mum is a British warmblood by Royaldik, an Oldenburg. She is a very dark bay, almost black in the winter. Here's a link to Killour Star. https://www.barrowbyconnemaras.co.uk/killour-star
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
A dorsal stripe but the head isn't darker, coat faded, like a dun so I'd suspect ND1 rather than dun.
Sorry , hadn't read all thread.
rhino
Well-Known Member
Connemaras have cream, not dun. They’re different genes and coat colours, although some still insist on using them interchangeably.
Buckskin x Bay can NOT produce dun offspring. Yours is definitely a beautiful bay.
mynutmeg
Well-Known Member
I know this is an older thread however am a hit stumped on colour for this lad - sold as a buckskin, he's 8 months in pics, as he's grown a bit more (10.months now) has almost a silver top layer to his coat (still got the winter baby coat), bottom.pic is dad, mum was grey, he's got a fairly solid dorsal stripe with solid black legs - in am going to test him but came across this thread and figured I'd see what you lovely people thought
MatHalTed
Well-Known Member
He's definitely Buckskin, he does look like he may be going grey too however, do you have any newborn pictures of him? That's normally the best time to assess for grey as they will have more visible hyperpigmentation and a lack of normal foal camouflage. The dorsal stripe could be from either Nd1, which can cause primitive markings similar to actual Dun but without the base coat dilution, or could be due to grey hyperpigmentation.
mynutmeg
Well-Known Member
Thanks - no I don't have any baby pics unfortunately, no grey spectacles.or anything on his face,
Will update once he's colour tested - also which ones apart from grey gene should I be testing?
Will update once he's colour tested - also which ones apart from grey gene should I be testing?
Ddraig_wen
Well-Known Member
He looks very similar to my sooty buckskin boy. He had the same coat as a baby and has coated out very similarly this winter. Attached photo is as a yearling
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CLFS
Member
Just out of sheer curiosity, where would the 'blonde' come from on our baby? Her mane is black like her mums. Mum bay black points black mane and tail. Dad almost black with black mane and tail. Dam sire if the tale be true and not just a touch of the blarney stone is chestnut but mane and tail same not flaxen. Wondering whether it will end up all dark like her mane 
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I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
Just out of sheer curiosity, where would the 'blonde' come from on our baby? Her mane is black like her mums. Mum bay black points black mane and tail. Dad almost black with black mane and tail. Dam sire if the tale be true and not just a touch of the blarney stone is chestnut but mane and tail same not flaxen. Wondering whether it will end up all dark like her mane
Its foal tail growing out and will end up black.
CLFS
Member
Thankyou
MatHalTed
Well-Known Member
Agree with I'm Dun, foal camouflage growing out, some lose it quickly where as it can take a long time to grow out in others
annasays
New User
@MatHalTed this is so interesting! Just a question on colour breeding if I may? I have an Appaloosa leopard mini Shetland, her foal is palomino (as was sire) I intend to breed her next year with my perlino, any ideas on colour I could get?
MatHalTed
Well-Known Member
Do you know what base colour she is under the Appaloosa spotting so I could or narrow it down a bit? She must at least have one recessive copy of extension (little e that produces chestnut) if she's had a palomino foal.
Perlino sire will always pass one copy of cream and could give either of the three bases depending on what his extension and agouti status is, so Palomino, Buckskin or Smokey Black, then a 50% chance of passing the LP gene and 50% PATN1 gene with the former being responsible for causing the Appaloosa spotting and the latter being responsible for pattern variations such as size of spots or shape and size of the blanket etc. In heterozygous form you are more likely to get varnish, blanket or leopard spotting phenotype, though this is dependent on PATN1 interactions with LP and can't really be predicted. LP can also cause colour shifting, so a genetically black horse with LP can end up looking red or bay due to the way it can sometimes affect pigment.
Violetthegrey
Active Member
I have just discovered this thread and its so interesting, though difficult to get my head around! I have a mare that was born liver chestnut, is now dapple grey with red flecks at 6 years old, but looked almost roan as a 2/3 year old in the greying out process.
I have no clue how to work out her correct code for colour genetics, but do know her dam was white grey, and her sire chestnut. There are a mix of bays, greys and chestnuts in her breeding on both sides.
She previously had a black filly that is now nearly two years old and still black. The sire was grey.
I am in the process of breeding her to a dark bay stallion, and the best I can work out is that there is likely at 50/50 chance whatever coat colour the foal is born with will grey out. I think chestnut and bay are each slightly more likely than black.
And then there is the genetics of white markings! My mare has three white stocking, a white sock and a blaze. The stallion has no white markings. Is it 50/50 on white markings too?
So complicated, but so, so interesting.
I have no clue how to work out her correct code for colour genetics, but do know her dam was white grey, and her sire chestnut. There are a mix of bays, greys and chestnuts in her breeding on both sides.
She previously had a black filly that is now nearly two years old and still black. The sire was grey.
I am in the process of breeding her to a dark bay stallion, and the best I can work out is that there is likely at 50/50 chance whatever coat colour the foal is born with will grey out. I think chestnut and bay are each slightly more likely than black.
And then there is the genetics of white markings! My mare has three white stocking, a white sock and a blaze. The stallion has no white markings. Is it 50/50 on white markings too?
So complicated, but so, so interesting.
Cloball
Well-Known Member
So from what you've said your mare is heterozygous for the grey gene so Gg. As she is chestnut she is ee homozygous recessive extension and as she has had a black foal we know she is at least one recessive agouti so together eea_Gg.
Do you know if the stallion has any black or chestnut babies as that would help narrow down his genetics.
So in essence the grey is 50/50 the rest kinda depends on the stallion. These are the percentages if we use unknown for the stallion and homozygous recessive agouti for your mare.
and these are the percentages if we say your mare is heterozygous dominant Agouti. 
White spotting genes are many and most white marks don't have a known single gene mutation. Other factors such as womb position can also effect it and it is possible there are also suppressor genes so I'm afraid not as simple as 50/50.
Do you know if the stallion has any black or chestnut babies as that would help narrow down his genetics.
So in essence the grey is 50/50 the rest kinda depends on the stallion. These are the percentages if we use unknown for the stallion and homozygous recessive agouti for your mare.
and these are the percentages if we say your mare is heterozygous dominant Agouti. White spotting genes are many and most white marks don't have a known single gene mutation. Other factors such as womb position can also effect it and it is possible there are also suppressor genes so I'm afraid not as simple as 50/50.
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Violetthegrey
Active Member
The stallion seems to produce bay and chestnut foals
Violetthegrey
Active Member
Thank you so much for your detailed reply, it is very interesting, and lovely to have an idea of my mares colour genetics like this. Thank you
Cloball
Well-Known Member
Oh great so now we know he is heterozygous dominant extension. If he has a lot of foals on the ground and no black ones then we could assume he's homozygous dominant Agouti so EeAA. That simplifies it to the point where you have no chance of a black foal it's 50/50 chestnut Vs bay but that is based on an assumption.The stallion seems to produce bay and chestnut foals
I think white markings tend to be more loudly expressed on chestnut but I'm not sure where I've got that from.
Violetthegrey
Active Member
I have just had a good search and found this on Hilltop Stud "Steeped In Luck carries both the black and red factor genes. He can produce both black and red based coat colors" though I still haven't found any examples of black offspring!
It's fascinating how black needs to come from both sides to have a small chance, but grey (not a colour in its self I know) only needs to come from one parent and has such an influence!
I love greys so I don't mind that at all!
Cloball
Well-Known Member
Ah see that's not quite right. As to get a black horse you only need one copy of dominant extension EE = black and Ee = black. However it's the agouti factor that makes things interesting as you also only need one copy to make bay (a black horse must be homozygous recessive agouti =aa) and it hides (isn't expressed) on a red based or chestnut horse, a bay horse is technically black based but the agouti gene moves the pigment about to make bay. So the black itself only needs to come from one parent as does the Agouti but it's the combination of factors that makes pure black less likely. Sorry not sure I've explained that very well.
Edited to say just for an example my mare is black and by breeding EEaa so she will always have a black based foal however if I bred her to a horse with at least one copy of dominant extension id have a 50-100% chance of a bay
Edited to say just for an example my mare is black and by breeding EEaa so she will always have a black based foal however if I bred her to a horse with at least one copy of dominant extension id have a 50-100% chance of a bay
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Cloball
Well-Known Member
The stallion seems to produce bay and chestnut foals
They've worded this slightly oddly presumably they mean they've colour tested him and he's Ee, so black and red based, but as bay is black based and they've not mentioned his agouti factor he could still be either AA or Aa. My thoughts are still AA. I've had a look at his parents and they are mostly down as chestnut, bay or grey no blacks until very far back.I have just had a good search and found this on Hilltop Stud "Steeped In Luck carries both the black and red factor genes. He can produce both black and red based coat colors" though I still haven't found any examples of black offspring!
It's fascinating how black needs to come from both sides to have a small chance, but grey (not a colour in its self I know) only needs to come from one parent and has such an influence!
I love greys so I don't mind that at all!
Edited to say he is very handsome.