A desperate, please help can the vets get it wrong....

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ducktails

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I have a feeling that this is going to sound so desperate that I could possibly sound crazy, but bear with me and please if you have anything to offer please do, because quite honestly I am at the end of my tether...

As brief as possible history, after 6 months of messing around with my own vets I sent my horse up to Animal Health Trust for a full lameness work up. Diagnosis was chronic suspensory damage to both hind legs, chronic damage to left fore suspensory and arthritic changes to sacro illiac joint. Sue Dyson told me my mare would never come back into any amount of athletic work and I applied for loss of use. At the grand old age of 7 I told my insurance company that I felt she would not be suitable as a pet and I didn't want to watch her deteriorate so elected for euthanasia....

Then.. I hear about Roger Meacock of natural healing solutions who I paid £300 (not normally that much but he came to me as I didn't want to put my girl through 6 hours of travelling). Roger came out and basically told me my horses teeth were awful despite being done and that her foot balance was poor and that this is what has caused the suspensory damage, he also came out put her pelvis back in and said thats what has caused the sacro illiac damage and that she will not only be able to be ridden, BUT be able to return to full athletic work that is within her capabilities including jumping, schooling etc. The future was to get her teeth done by bob livock (3 hours away) sort out the foot balance then bring her back into work.

cue me getting excited then only on coming down from the excitement has it left me feeling so confused that I can spend 6k at a vets to be told shoot her and 300 quid with this guy who said the problems are not permanent. Sooo I called back to Sue Dyson and put what Roger Meacock has said to me to her and she has basically called Roger a cowboy who is prying on gullible (I prefer desperate to give their horse every chance) owners. She has said that studies have been preformed on suspensory damage by vets and that even with damage detected to hind limbs within 6 weeks the return to work ratio is 14%.

I am so confused, this guy sounds so sure I know sugar cubes off this forum has also took his advice over Sue Dysons on her horse but I can't see how the vets you spend 6k on with all the machinery can be wrong over a guy and his theories.. I know who I want to believe and what he says make sense but I can't drag my self through this much longer. This mare is my baby, I need to make the right decision for her.

So please any advice, anyone out there had a horse recover from hind limb suspensory damage, insurance money is over surgery wasn't an option and I refuse to put her on box rest if the prognosis really is so poor. If doctor grass will do it she can have as much of the bloody green stuff as she wants but if this guy is talking **** and someone knows it out there please let me know.

If you have got to the bottom send me your address and I'll send you a medal

Terri
 
Could possibly be a bit of both. Yes, I have known horses to come back to full fitness after hind suspensory damage, but I haven't seen your horses scans so can't say how bad the damage is. Pevlis' cannot be 'put back in', but the network of muscles and sinew around can be corrected, to help the horse work normally. And lots of horses work effectively with some sacroilliac damage.
I've seem miracles performed once the feet have been changed, and seen teeth affect a horse in some strange ways, so either could be true.
If you've got loss of use, then why not try the new theories out for a while? She's yound, and her body should repair well enough. My one concern is how she has picked up such damage, has she had such a tough life or has she got conformation problems that aggriavate it?
Vets can be wrong, horses can fix themselves miraculously, and sometimes all we do doesn't help. Be prepared for all eventualities. Chin up.
Looking forward to my first ever medal ;o)
 
duggan said:
Looking forward to my first ever medal ;o)
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You can have a trophy for making me crack a smile at that.

In all seriousness, her hind leg conformation is poor although I do think it is a possibility I have inherited a bad leg from a previous owner. Horse was fully 5* vetted on purchase with no concerns but she is slightly straight behind and my inexperienced eye didn't pick it up (way to beaten down to be too proud to be honest now). Horse was 5 when I bought her and was out of work (I know, I know) she had however been hunted in the winter and was clipped out and apparently in the field having down time.

Not really in a position to judge whether this was maybe down time from a possible injury but there are lessons learnt their, horse was bought from breeder all shown on passport and there is no doubt about it she was sound on day of vetting. From here it gets sketchy, she went downhill when I stepped up the work (was written off as poor behavour, then as spavin) it took pure determination on my behalf to get the vets to listen to me and admit they needed to refer her.

I do agree with what roger has said and I have done all the reading I can on the net on the effects of teeth and foot balance, he has said that he has a 100% success rate with these cases of sue dysons. I called Sue Dyson today and told her what Roger had said but her bed manner is awful. One person has to be wrong here and I feel there must be hundreds of people out there, either getting there horses put down unnecessarily OR being ripped off.

In all honesty, I could take LOU at 60% of what ever measley amount they value her at and just have her stamped then see what grass does, but I don't have land, it won't be easy and I don't see why I should take 60% if my horse has no chance of coming right, I know that sounds awful but I have been through so much with her in the last 9 months and its all draining on my heart, my personal life and my bank account.
 
As someone who has put 2 down in 9 years (youngish horses) due to chronic problems I sympathise deeply. Sue Dyson saw one of ours and TBH I found her bedside manner fine. She was factual and clear and gave us written reports to back up what she had said.

I DO believe sometimes other methods can work - Dr Green, Barefoot, Various manipulations etc. They definitely have a place for the right horse at the right time. But as a (human) nurse I tend to side towards proper research with controlled trials. I truely do not think people like Sue Dyson are just out to make money or put saveable horses to sleep. Realistically there are a lot of people out there who ride horses I would choose not to have in work. Look around and you will see (you become very good at spotting it after a while) low level lameness in many horses. There are a lot of horses out there with "behavour" problems due to undiagnosed/ignored pain. Some of these have been treated and are "recovered" from various injuries. It just depends on what you as an owner are prepared to accept.

No real answers to your questions, but I guess this is a vote for "modern and scientific methods" which can be proven. If your horse is comfortable I would give the other treatments a try as you have nothing to loose but I would be sceptical about long term recovery.
 
You are in a tough place and i dont envy you!

I once was looking after a horse that went to SD for a lameness work out, basically she said it had navicular (which it did) but completely ignored the problems in his back, which was the area causing him the most pain. We had a bit of a "difference of opinion" as i said he has never been lame in front and his problem was his back, he literally used to try and drop on the floor when you got on him, she insisted that we ride the poor bloody horse to see how the navicular went on, anyway after a week of him being at home and his back getting steadily worse i managed to get the owner to see sense and get physio out to him. We all stood around (me, vet, owner, yo and physio) and basically said that the owner was too fat and too novicey to ride him and that he can have time off in the field indefinately, be pts or sell him on. The physio piped up and said she would take him and they had many happy years together doing all riding club activities and never has problems with his feet.
What i am trying to say in a long winded fashion is that there is normally always a chance (gotta have hope and all that!!) and it never hurts to give things a try, if finances permit.
Is she good enough to breed from as i do know that this can help with soft tissue injuries, its something to do with the hormones released during pregnancy. It also means they get to have a couple of years off and are still doing something productive!
 
I haven't seen your horses scans but Sue Dyson is one of the best lameness vets there is, and therefore I'm sure her diagnosis is accurate. Whether her long term prognosis is correct, well probably but there are always the exceptions. What I will say is people pray on the desperate, and whilst your horse may have bad teeth and poor foot balance fixing these would not directly heal the damage already done to her suspensories. Turning her away for a year and seeing what happens might work, but it's not for every horse.
 
The only person i now trust to make decisions is myself - i take all the information that experts can give me, i research it as much as time will allow and then I make an informed choice. I am gullable, (i was ripped off again over the weekend by a local large vet practice) i love my animals and as vets are pretty good at picking up whom can be given the belt and braces approach i usually have been bled dry by the vets, the larger the practice the more this seams to happen.

If it were me i would take lou, and get horses teeth and feet sorted and forget his issues until the spring - then i would give him april and may to come back into light work and if this did not work then i would probably reconsider my options.

Trust your instinct its usually right !

good luck
 
As the owner of a sound, competing horse who was 24 hours off being put to sleep because the vets could not cure his lameness issues (navicular disease) I would go with your instincts, get the teeth and feet right and give your young horse until the spring to see if he comes right. Vets are human, they can be wrong too. Highly qualified people sometimes "know" too much!

If you can take off at least the back shoes and let him grow the foot that precisely matches the problem conformation, you will have a better chance of soundness. (Though he might throw some odd looking feet!).
 
Gingerwitch said:
If it were me i would take lou, and get horses teeth and feet sorted and forget his issues until the spring - then i would give him april and may to come back into light work and if this did not work then i would probably reconsider my options.

Trust your instinct its usually right !

good luck
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That is what i would do. :)
 
cptrayes said:
If you can take off at least the back shoes and let him grow the foot that precisely matches the problem conformation, you will have a better chance of soundness. (Though he might throw some odd looking feet!).
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That is so true! So many farriers try to make a perfect foot when the leg it is supported by isn't perfect!
As you've said yourself her conformation isn't the best i'd pass on the breeding bit, problems like this have a habit of doubling and dumping themselves big time on the foal. Don't put someone else through all the heartache.
Although vets do have to make a living, and they are known to add on a little extra jab to push the bill up, in general i've not found them to be deiliberately obstructive. No doubt yours got a bit uppity as you appear to be questioning her judgement, possibly quite rightly but at the least you are intitled to look down every avenue.
It sounds like you were stung when you bought her, or you were just very unlucky. Chalk it down to experience and try all you can for your mare. Good luck. Do I have a bunch of flowers to go with my medal? They do at the olympics!
 
Take the LOU, give your horse a year in the field and see how it goes.

Sue Dyson's reputation speaks for itself - and whilst I too would be interested, perhaps, in alternative views, I would be very scepticle about being told that a pelvis is 'out' (impossible) and would have to discount much of what they said on that basis.

Bob Livock is a good dentist, equally there are many other good dentists around.

Of course it makes sence that the foot balance is correct - it always should be. And this may have been pointed out to you in the report done at the AHT, I don't know. But if the horse is field sound and happy why not give it some time to see how it resolves, miracles do happen.
 
I have just read Bob Livock website and see he has Tex Gamble as part of his team. This is one person I would never never have anywhere near my horses.

You say you are 3 hours away from Bob's stud, where do you live.

I have an Arab gelding that did a very bad hind suspensory ligament (A hole as big as a golf ball) but he is now 12 months later competing in endurance, did a 40mile ride at the beginning of August.
 
i was told in february that my horse should be pts as he had been suffering from intermittent lameness for a while, everytime i booked him in to be seen he was sound! finally got vet on a lame day and he nerve blocked and said the kindest thing for my boy was to pts, he has a history of hard working life and many other problems.

i decided i wouldn't do that and give him the summer to just be a horse, back in may i got x-rays done by a different vet and they were clear so the general thought was my boy had done his DDFT, either torn or as one vet said it's probably stretched so much it's not holding things in place properly!
i built myself up to saying goodbye to my boy in august and the vet saw him trot up and said he's doing better than we imagined and i've ridden him a few times (10 mins max) to see how he is doing, he's now happier having something done!

so in my experience vets can get it wrong, the first vet got it wrong in the sense of not wanting to try anything else, i knew it was wrong so went with my gut instinct and so far *touches wood frantically* things are going well.

go with your gut instinct, maybe get a second opinion from another vet. if you are already considering having your horse pts then give the other guys ideas a try first. good luck.
 
I am really sorry to hear about your horse and I can sympathise with how you feel having been through a similar situation.

You have done the absolute best for your horse by taking her to Sue Dyson, one of the world experts on lameness. The news is not good and it's difficult to accept, but I think that it would be best for both you and the horse if you tried to. The alternative is spending a lot of time and money on dubious treatments and getting nothing in return (I also do not think a pelvis can be 'put back in' and would be worried about spending a lot of money in new and different areas that did not come up in the diagnosis).

Best of luck whatever you do.
 
Of course vets get it wrong as do doctors (how many stories do we read of people being given so many months to live and are still going years later!) At the end of the day they are only (educated) humans.

If she were mine I would take off all her shoes and let her live out the winter, rugged with hay, then bring her up in the spring and have a look.

However, and I have been in this awful situation, if you feel the time is right to let her go then you should have her put to sleep.

At the end of the day the only person who can decide is you as you are the only person who is going to live with the outcome of your decision.

Perhaps write everything down and have a read back through and see how you feel.

Finally lots of virtual ((((((hugs)))))) you poor thing, you sound like you are in utter termoil.
 
its difficult and only you know what to do for the best.
But if the vets spends years training have all this fancy equiptment how could they get is totaly wrong?

I understand where you are coming from with the natural healing but be careful, does he have x ray eyes or able to scan by blinking?

It could be they are both wrong and right.

cant you go down the try if route then see how she reacts?
You wont be loosong anything by giving it a chance and if she doesnt inprove then maybe your first desicion was right.
 
Yep, I completely understand. My vet has worked with the british team but he refused to believe/accept that my TB suffers from Low grade lammi. I had another vet who listened to what I had to say and completely agrees with me, I know have a sound horse.

I lost a lot of faith in professionals a long time ago, maybe i;m just a cynic but there it is. I don't really want to turn it into a barefoot thread but its a good analogy - we're seeing lots of navicular horses that were written off by (sometimes very good) vets come back into full work (I have 3 of them - horses, not vets LOL) with a diet and management change.

The biggest thing i've learnt over the last few years is to become your own expert, research every problem you come across - don't just hand over the responsibility to someone else, (feet? - not my department, call the farrier, saddle's - that''ll be the saddle fitter then etc etc) no one knows your horse better than you so trust your instincts and grill the experts with questions. If you feel that your horse has a chance then follow your instincts and go with it, if you listen to your horse you won't go far wrong - after all, he really is the expert in being a horse!!!
Keep us updated, I and i'm sure some others would love to know how you get on. X
 
Yeah vets can get things wrong and that I know from experience.

Last year I was adviced by my old vet to have my boy pts due to a eye problem that wasnt healing. It kept having flare ups by having a abscess that re occurred. Vet was adamant it would never heal and his sight would never return and the best thing cause he was unfit for purpose was to pts. I have to say I decided that I knew my boy and he deserved a chance to get over it and I am pleased to say that his eye is now fully healed and that he has regained most of his sight. He just blind behind on his right side.

If you have to time and money I would give your horse a go and see what happens.

You will do the right thing for your horse and only you can make the decision. You know the horse and go with your gut instinct.

Sorry I cant be too much help and I feel for you.

Hope all goes well and you will make the right decision for your horse.
 
I'm not sure it's so much a question of "wrong" or "right", more of how all the pieces fit together, circumstances etc. I'm sure the diagnostic results you've received are correct - they are standard protocols which yield quantifiable results. So if this or that shows up, yes that's what the horse has.

BUT that doesn't necessarily mean that's ALL the horse has, or that's what is affecting the horse most significantly. Since we can't ask them where it hurts, we just have to go on the clues.

It also doesn't mean that anyone can predict the future. Not vets, not alternative therapists, not owners. Everyone has stories of animals that have rallied in amazing ways so there's something to be said for "when there's life, there's hope." I knew a horse that was turned out to have a "last summer", came in in the autumn vastly improved, then went on to event for years! I've had "behavioural" cases with all manner of injuries and damage that have come back to useful careers. (And, of course, some that haven't come back.) The fact is there are more things in heaven and earth, as it were, and we simply don't know/can't predict every possible factor. Yes, science has been proven reliable but quite frankly, much of what we can prove now was taken on faith in the past - did that make it any less valid? Just because we can't prove something, that doesn't mean it's not true. ;)

(Totally random non-horsey story, but I took a seriously head injured cat - not a pet, one of the semi-feral barn cats - into the vet's once. The cat was very impaired, almost catatonic and they were definite that PTS was the best course. I had to leave the cat with them and they promised to do it shortly. Got a call about a week later asking if we wanted the cat back. :eek: Alive. :eek: :eek: Apparently they had had an emergency right after I left, put him in a dark cupboard out of the way, and literally forgotten about him!!! Two days later he woke up! He did come back and while it was obvious he wasn't quite right, he was certainly very much alive and able to fend for himself. You never know . . .)

In the end, only the OP can decide how to spend his/her money and time. From the OP is sounds like you want to try, so you should try. If the horse is comfortable now, at least to be turned out, and you can swing the time and money to keep her, what's the harm?
 
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Another not quite related story, but it might give hope. http://danceswithgrace.blogspot.com/2010/09/six-weeks-round-up.html

The link takes you to a blog post with a video. The horse in the video was written off after years of unsuccessful veterinary treatment for problems which were never diagnosed. They ended up just deciding the horse was 'a bad un'.

The horse ended up being destined for dog food. This video is roughly 18 months after her trip to the inside of tin can was diverted.

My vet thought I was an idiot. Now he calls me a witch. All I did was change her food and give her a bit of time and TLC (oh and of course took the b***** shoes off) :-)
 
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ducktails said:
I have a feeling that this is going to sound so desperate that I could possibly sound crazy, but bear with me and please if you have anything to offer please do, because quite honestly I am at the end of my tether...

As brief as possible history, after 6 months of messing around with my own vets I sent my horse up to Animal Health Trust for a full lameness work up. Diagnosis was chronic suspensory damage to both hind legs, chronic damage to left fore suspensory and arthritic changes to sacro illiac joint. Sue Dyson told me my mare would never come back into any amount of athletic work and I applied for loss of use. At the grand old age of 7 I told my insurance company that I felt she would not be suitable as a pet and I didn't want to watch her deteriorate so elected for euthanasia....

Then.. I hear about Roger Meacock of natural healing solutions who I paid £300 (not normally that much but he came to me as I didn't want to put my girl through 6 hours of travelling). Roger came out and basically told me my horses teeth were awful despite being done and that her foot balance was poor and that this is what has caused the suspensory damage, he also came out put her pelvis back in and said thats what has caused the sacro illiac damage and that she will not only be able to be ridden, BUT be able to return to full athletic work that is within her capabilities including jumping, schooling etc. The future was to get her teeth done by bob livock (3 hours away) sort out the foot balance then bring her back into work.

cue me getting excited then only on coming down from the excitement has it left me feeling so confused that I can spend 6k at a vets to be told shoot her and 300 quid with this guy who said the problems are not permanent. Sooo I called back to Sue Dyson and put what Roger Meacock has said to me to her and she has basically called Roger a cowboy who is prying on gullible (I prefer desperate to give their horse every chance) owners. She has said that studies have been preformed on suspensory damage by vets and that even with damage detected to hind limbs within 6 weeks the return to work ratio is 14%.

I am so confused, this guy sounds so sure I know sugar cubes off this forum has also took his advice over Sue Dysons on her horse but I can't see how the vets you spend 6k on with all the machinery can be wrong over a guy and his theories.. I know who I want to believe and what he says make sense but I can't drag my self through this much longer. This mare is my baby, I need to make the right decision for her.

So please any advice, anyone out there had a horse recover from hind limb suspensory damage, insurance money is over surgery wasn't an option and I refuse to put her on box rest if the prognosis really is so poor. If doctor grass will do it she can have as much of the bloody green stuff as she wants but if this guy is talking **** and someone knows it out there please let me know.

If you have got to the bottom send me your address and I'll send you a medal

Terri
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Hi Terri, I do feel for you.
In answer to your question, yes the vets CAN get it wrong...(and I want to be one, so I am not tarring all with same brush, nor blaming them!!)
Our girl is 16 years young (!), 14.2hh and was a rescue so no idea of breed etc. She was diagnosed with arthritis after a long period of lameness - she suffered 2 seizures (never found cause) but she recovered from them by herself and they didn't want to do any further investigation as she's quite stressy as it is.
They put her on bute and box rest - an absolute bloody nightmare. She was still lame in trot through bute, but improved in walk when we started to walk her out. The vets examined her again and said come off bute, start riding her through it get her working but we'd have to limit the work we do with her eg no jumping, cantering etc.
We rode her twice and got the vet out again - this time our normal vet came out and diagnosed serious laminitis, and pedal bone rotation. We'd RIDDEN her with it.
Luckily, we are overcautious with lami anyway (they reckoned the stress of the seizure brought it on) and the pedal bone rotation wasn't severe. This was April and we have just started to trot her again now, bringing her slowly back into work. We have a remedial farrier who is fantastic and has made such a difference already. I don't blame the vets as they've always said our girl is difficult to diagnose as she doesn't display the normal signs she isn't a textbook horse but I feel that further tests maybe should have been done before writing it off as arthritis and telling us to ride the poor girl.
I just hope your horse gets sorted - get a second opinion always, and you know your horse better than anyone. If you aren't happy with the outcome, pester them until you are.
K x
 
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