A horse is being fraudulently advertised as vice free

[khadijah]

Hi all
Just after some advice

To my horror I saw an advert of a horse for sale that I know as being dangerous it has at least 3 vices and poss more !!

Its advertised as a lovely horse good with this and that has done this and that and vice free !

Now if i jus approach the owner theyl prob just tell me to bog off so im wondering if there is any regulatory body i could contact ? Im fuming its FRAUD !! And someone could die !!

 

[TarrSteps]

If you report them to Trading Standards you will have to prove your allegations and there won't be much to do unless there is a complaint from an injured party.

Do you know the owners to talk to?.I'd be inclined to have an informal chat and remind them that they could end up in serious trouble if the horse displays dangerous behaviour that they (and other people) know about but lied about. I once told someone I'd be happy to act as a legal witness when the horse they were selling eventually hurt someone. As it turned out the horse did hurt the buyer badly and the sellers lost their house paying her off. I never did have to bear witness as they settled but i would have.

 

[_GG_]

If you can, speak to the owner in a friendly manner to let them know that the laws regarding the sale of goods applies to horses and to private sellers. If they are found to have sold a horse that was mis-advertised, they can face not only severe fines, but also criminal action I think (you'll need to check this).

If you can't or don't want to do that. Send them a letter anonymously stating that you know the horse and you have seen the advert, which is, at best, misleading and that they have 48 hours to reprint the advert or Trading standards will be informed and you will make yourself available as a legal witness. It's not the way I would do it, I prefer the direct approach, but it is better than standing by and watching a horse be sold to go on a hurt someone.

 

[_GG_]

And yes, with TS you will have to prove your allegations, but if you can't do this, you can ask them to make a record of your call for reference should things go wrong in the future. Get a reference number and the name of the person you speak to.

 

[misskk88]

As above. Particularly careless of the seller, and could open themselves up to a whole host of issues from trading standards if anything were to go wrong.

Some people are so selfish. They are more worried about money in their pockets than welfare of the animal and safety of the person. Other problem also is that many people think of themselves as far more experienced than they actually are, so when someone is genuine about horses vices/issues, when it goes wrong the buyer still comes back and blames them. I guess it works both ways. Fingers crossed either scenario doesn't happen.

 

[Zero00000]

Why do people do this?
Rather than put others in danger (Assuming of course, the horse is dangerous and not just too much horse for the owner) do the right thing!
I would have to speak to the owner, perhaps print off some stories about this happening to others, the outcome, be it injury or court case, they may think twice (hopefully)

 

[LittleMonster]

i was in a similar situation when a dealer was selling a horse, lots of claims which weren't at all true.

But decided to stay out as if something does go wrong with the new owner then it would come back to her and cause problems (and it did ) but the main reason i stayed out it was it would be her word against mine (i was 15 at the time and ridden the horse in question) and she had a lot of people that would support her so i wasn't going to get anywhere.

Also im sure they will suss it out when they come to view the horse but you could report her to trading standards or speak to her but im glad i stayed out of it and glad i did Karma came back and got her!

 

[misskk88]

Also im sure they will suss it out when they come to view the horse but you could report her to trading standards or speak to her but im glad i stayed out of it and glad i did Karma came back and got her!

Not necessarily. It is not uncommon for people to dope, drug or over exercise a horse before a potential buyer comes to view. Horse appears sane, calm and easy to do... Not the case when they get it home.

I think if it is REALLY, TRULY a dangerous horse, then yes I would be inclined to mention to the seller of repurcussions, particularly if they are a bit naive to these potential repurcussions. There is a line though with being a concerned member of the public and a busy body who sticks their nose in (not saying you are!), but just be careful not to get dragged into things in the wrong way I would record issue with Trading Standards and say that if any instances arise, you would be happy to support.

 

[FreshandMinty]

i went to try a horse who was supposedly 100% genuine etc etc and it pulled the quickest, most polished manoeuvre to get me off Ive ever experienced in 25 years. I did hurt myself and the seller of course claimed he had never done anything like it before etc etc.

A couple of months later, this horse is still being advertised. They don’t have a rider for it (surprise surprise), seller claims she is ill and can’t ride and the person who was riding it has lost interest. So get this, the latest advert is using a picture she took on her phone when I was there, of me riding it!!

It’s a very difficult area to get into as you dont want to be accused of libel but Im interested in the responses on this thread.

 

[PorkChop]

I would stay out of it. That's not to say that you shouldn't give your opinion if asked - unlikely I know.

 

[LittleMonster]

Not necessarily. It is not uncommon for people to dope, drug or over exercise a horse before a potential buyer comes to view. Horse appears sane, calm and easy to do... Not the case when they get it home.

That's true! slipped my mind, well they will find out the truth one way or another.

 

[Zero00000]

You could always ask someone to make an anonymous phone call, ask a few relevant questions then put in a 'but that's not true is it because XYZ' and ending it with a 'Advertise the horse correctly or I'm taking this to TS' (In as nice a way as possible)

 

[fburton]

What vices make a horse dangerous? Or are we assuming a broad definition of what constitutes a vice?

 

[Tinsel Trouble]

Yes "vices" legally need to be disclosed, this is a really short list of weaving, wind sucking... not rearing bucking or napping! But one important phrase: Caveat Emptor. In a private sale anything over and above that does not have to be disclosed UNLESS the buyer states that are purchasing the item/ horse based on the fact that it meets the needs they intended to be met.

What they are doing is unethical, but it might not be illegal. I have a pony that's almost complete angel at home, he has a bit of a buck in him, but apart from that does nothing wrong in anyway I would have no qualms in selling him as a confident childs' pony (bucking disclosed), I took him to a livery yard with me and his head blew, he was jumping out of his stable, bolshy, potentially dangerous to handle and couldn't be further from his usual chilled self! Sometimes it's the situation that changes a horse... just a little food for thought! Xx

 

[Dry Rot]

I would stay out of it. That's not to say that you shouldn't give your opinion if asked - unlikely I know.

This ^^^^.

Maybe the current owners have cured the faults? Maybe the horse only did these things when in your ownership?

Not your horse, not your responsibility -- until the case gets into the defamation courts which I am assuming the OP does not want. You cannot live other people's lives for them. A very good reason why a purchaser needs to exercise caution when buying! On the other hand, the horse may now be an absolute gem and as described.!

 

[fburton]

So what does OP consider to be a vice? Their idea and the usual (legal?) meaning may not be the same.

 

[khadijah]

Thanks guys brill info and advice
Ill take it all in and decide what to do

For others who thought horse might not dangerous anymore etc

Horse was
Never mine i know the owner personally and no its problems have not been fixed
And yes its dangerous horse that should have been adertised as a project

Hence why i was bit gobsmacked by it really

 

[TarrSteps]

I would very much agree the question is completely depends on the individual situation and the wording of the ad.

Let's assume the horse has been seen to rear on occasion. If the ad states categorically that the horse has never bucked, reared etc then this is, in fact, a lie. If the OP has personal experience of the horse rearing then the OP has a point. In the case I mentioned I had personal experience of the undesirable behaviour, there were many witnesses, and the horse had a diagnosed medical issue to account for the problem. The horse was advertised as being fit, safe and suitable for jumping, which was simply a lie. It was pretty cut and dried! Even so, I think the seller was an idiot because if things seem too good to be true they often are.

I assume from the wording of the OP that this is the sort of situation we are discussing.

However, as pointed out 'vices' notifiable under the law are things like cribbing and weaving. If the 'vice' is that the horse is badly behaved then I would agree the situation is much trickier and, in the absence of proof, it may have to filled as none of the OP's business.

 

[khadijah]

"" So what does OP consider to be a vice? Their idea and the usual (legal?) meaning may not be the same.""

I dont understand what you mean a vice is a vice as understood by everyone

I understood a seller legally has to disclose known faults ... Rearing, bolting, weaving even !!

So what vices is one legally
Not obliged to disclose ?

 

[amandap]

However, as pointed out 'vices' notifiable under the law are things like cribbing and weaving. If the 'vice' is that the horse is badly behaved then I would agree the situation is much trickier and, in the absence of proof, it may have to filled as none of the OP's business.

So, out of interest, are all the vices listed to be notified, 'stable vices'? I realize some horses also crib in the field, just found the point interesting.

 

[khadijah]

I read the posts again... To clarify ; Sadly the horse does have true vices
Not bad behaviour .... To actually state vice free in the ad is UNBELIEVABlE !! Im so vexed !

 

[TarrSteps]

Thanks guys brill info and advice
Ill take it all in and decide what to do

For others who thought horse might not dangerous anymore etc

Horse was
Never mine i know the owner personally and no its problems have not been fixed
And yes its dangerous horse that should have been adertised as a project

Hence why i was bit gobsmacked by it really

Ah, that's a bit trickier. 'Project' doesn't mean anything under the law, either way. If they have not actually lied about something then the onus is on potential buyers to ask questions. If the sellers lie in those conversations then they lay themselves open to action but you have no way of knowing that.

I have to say, I'm amazed people rely on sellers to keep them safe in horse deals. That's mad behaviour, like expecting Sainsbury's to refrain from unhealthy foods. If people want to be free to buy whatever they want then the flipside of that is they have to take personal responsibility for their actions. I know that sounds contradictory but if you ASK questions and get lied to, that is fraud. The catch is, when people tell me about their horse deals gone wrong it almost always turns out they didn't ask the right questions or ignored the answers they got.

 

[TarrSteps]

So, out of interest, are all the vices listed to be notified, 'stable vices'? I realize some horses also crib in the field, just found the point interesting.

I don't know the intricacies of law here but the ones I am familiar with (largely similar) date from when horses were transport. So they have more to do with issues of health and management. If you have EVER seen the horse crib, it has a vice. Where it cribs is neither here nor there. I understand this doesn't sit with how we think about cribbing now but that's also immaterial

 

[Lolo]

This sounds mad but when was the last time you saw the horse? Could there have been genuine changes in the behaviour in that time?

My sister loaned a mare for a while who we sent back as she was outright dangerous- she broncoed until Al fell off and then would try and pounce on her, she reared and went over backwards (rider leapt off as she went up so wasn't the cause) and was generally unpleasant to be around. There were no physical issues (we tried long and hard to work it out too). She was readvertised and luckily people locally had seen her behaviour at shows and rallies so avoided. Everything else we just had to hope that no one got hurt.

She did go to someone new after several years off and whilst she was still very tricky she'd settled down a bit and wasn't outright dangerous.

 

[khadijah]

Yea hun thats what i meant that it 'should' have been advertised as a project'
But it hasnt its been advertised as someones dream horsie !!

I didnt know chronic rearing wasnt a vice ? But they are legally obliged to disclose that kind of thing right ?

 

[amandap]

I don't know the intricacies of law here but the ones I am familiar with (largely similar) date from when horses were transport. So they have more to do with issues of health and management. If you have EVER seen the horse crib, it has a vice. Where it cribs is neither here nor there. I understand this doesn't sit with how we think about cribbing now but that's also immaterial

Yes, I was wondering how old the definition in the law was.

 

[fburton]

Well, when I read "vice free" I assume the sellers are referring to stable vices, i.e. cribbing, weaving, etc., not whether the horse bites or kicks people (or poos in its water bucket).

 

[fburton]

So, out of interest, are all the vices listed to be notified, 'stable vices'? I realize some horses also crib in the field, just found the point interesting.

Confusingly, cribbing in the field would be considered a 'stable vice' (I believe).

 

[gembear]

A couple of months later, this horse is still being advertised. They don’t have a rider for it (surprise surprise), seller claims she is ill and can’t ride and the person who was riding it has lost interest. So get this, the latest advert is using a picture she took on her phone when I was there, of me riding it!!

It’s a very difficult area to get into as you dont want to be accused of libel but Im interested in the responses on this thread.

That's really bad! I would speak to TS about that? They're basically using a photo of you to advertise something without your permission.

 

[amandap]

Confusingly, cribbing in the field would be considered a 'stable vice' (I believe).

I guessed that may be the case. I suppose stable vices exhibited in the field probably originated in the stable.

I hadn't thought about it before but realized the definition must be old when it clicked it may refer to stable vices.

Sorry op gone off topic! As TarrSteps says... buyer beware and question.