A horse who argues about everything!

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Marigold4

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Anyone got any training ideas for this? Would TRT methods help? My horse is now 8 and I have owned him since he was 2. In the meantime, I have backed and sold on 3 youngsters who are out hunting and eventing successfully. My 8-year-old is quite a different kettle of fish. He doesn't do anything sinister, but just argues about everything. Here's some examples, when loading, he will go in but has to have 5 minutes of standing on the ramp thinking about it and making a fuss beforehand. If doing groundwork, he will move over and back up nicely but always takes his time and does it when he feels ready. Mounting, he will mostly stand still but always has to take two steps forward as I get on. It's like he always has to have the last word on everything! I've probably let this go on too long, excusing it as a young horse thing, but now he's 8, I need to find ways of teaching him to be more compliant. I know it doesn't seem much on the face of it, but it affects everything he does. On the face of it, he is doing what he is told, but also getting one over me by the way he does it.
 
Could it be more about how you perceive things rather than him trying to ‘get one over you’? I don’t think horses really think like that, and if he was trying to assert dominance, usually it would be far more obvious behavior. Horses aren’t exactly subtle with each other.

None of the things you’ve described worry me, personally. I’d probably just let the horse take a bit more time to think about things but then again, I do have mares so they always tend to have opinions (not being difficult, just having their own thoughts) on what we are doing. Mimosa always thinks about loading before she loads, it’s never an issue and she always goes in fine but she stops and looks at it for a bit. If she’s really taking her time then pony nuts do the trick.

If it is repetitive pausing and thinking in many scenarios, then I’d probably work on confidence rather than compliance.

Otherwise I would just look at it with a sense of humour, and chalk it up to being a bit of a character.
 
Up to now, I have done as you say, treated it with a sense of humour and being a bit of a character. He is much loved. But a couple of people - new instructor and a showing judge - have commented on it. My new instructor thinks he is dominating me but in a subtle way, and I should ask for more compliance. On the other hand, he is a good natured chap who will give most things a go (in his own way), so may be I will be creating a new problem.
 
I would say my Louis can be a bit how you describe and I would sort of say he can be awkward sometimes, it used to annoy me a bit but I've kind of just accepted that is his character and it now sometimes amuses me.

I think what doesn't help is Arabi is so easy and I suppose I just compare every horse to him really but they are all different.

For example my stable set up is my corner stable has the feed room at the back behind a door, Arabi lives in that stable and if I go in there he often will stand at the door and watch me but that's it.

Louis would be in the feed room helping himself and would be a big pest and wouldn't want to be told no, he is also a massive escape artist and can open a bolt in a second and then just wander out he can have a stall guard he just pushes them until they break.

He also will fidget at the mounting block often will just refuse to walk somewhere pulls my stable guttering off the walls you get the picture I would just say his a pest.

Arabi wouldn't dream of doing any of those things 😂

I do think Louis is far too clever for his own good my dressage instructor said he learnt things so quick compared to all the horses he had ridden.
 
The relationship with your own horse is a very personal thing and what looks 'wrong' to other people might be fine for you
He's your horse - if you are happy with him that's great
Also bear in mind that sometimes people want to see a 'fault' to comment on; an instructor might feel they are not earning their fee unless they can find something to fix!

My old boy would always dawdle around when loading - I had to say 'In, xxxx, I mean it!' and then he loaded, so that was fine. It was just his way of doing things
 
It depends how much you correct. The trailer thing would not bother me but I would make sure the essentials were 100% and he was straight. That is the bit I would be super strict about correcting. With mounting I wouldn’t even get on if they moved and would do it over and over again until it was correct. My 5yo used to stand and then step away very subtly so he might do it 20x until it was 100% and now is good as gold.
It’s just a discipline issue and that is usually from the handler. We often make a rod for our own backs by it being good enough when actually it should be excellent. The problem with good enough is it papers over the issues and they just keep lurking.

I suspect the issue is you have been accepting average when you need to actually up your game and demand excellent. Backing up being a classic. I expect immediate and if it’s not then I raise my energy through body language, add a voice signal usually and increase the pressure. Then do it again and again until it’s excellent.
Horses learn by repetition and it goes with what Carl Hester says about Charlotte DJ - what makes Charlotte one of the best is she will make sure it’s perfect every time and work on it if it isn’t.
 
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LEC said:
It depends how much you correct. The trailer thing would not bother me but I would make sure the essentials were 100% and he was straight. That is the bit I would be super strict about correcting. With mounting I wouldn’t even get on if they moved and would do it over and over again until it was correct. My 5yo used to stand and then step away very subtly so he might do it 20x until it was 100% and now is good as gold.
It’s just a discipline issue and that is usually from the handler. We often make a rod for our own backs by it being good enough when actually it should be excellent. The problem with good enough is it papers over the issues and they just keep lurking.

I suspect the issue is you have been accepting average when you need to actually up your game and demand excellent. Backing up being a classic. I expect immediate and if it’s not then I raise my energy through body language, add a voice signal usually and increase the pressure. Then do it again and again until it’s excellent.
Horses learn by repetition and it goes with what Carl Hester says about Charlotte DJ - what makes Charlotte one of the best is she will make sure it’s perfect every time and work on it if it isn’t.
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Thanks for your reply. I think you have hit the nail on the head with your reply. I am accepting good enough ALL the time instead of excellent. He is endearing and slightly comical so gets away with it but is capable of much more. I'm not going to bully him into doing things better, but as you say, doing things again and again until it's excellent is something I will try. It starts today!
 
Marigold4 said:
Thanks for your reply. I think you have hit the nail on the head with your reply. I am accepting good enough ALL the time instead of excellent. He is endearing and slightly comical so gets away with it but is capable of much more. I'm not going to bully him into doing things better, but as you say, doing things again and again until it's excellent is something I will try. It starts today!
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I always compare it to potty training a child (I have never had children but it’s my understanding from friends). You don’t just stick child on potty twice and consider them potty trained. It takes hours of repetition and then one day they have it. It’s dull, takes time and you have to be disciplined (correcting might be a better word) to get the best result.

Yesterday 5yo who is a bit goofy and sweet decided to do go slow everywhere he was led. I soon got fed up and worked on it. Demanding he ups his energy and stays with me. I have let that happen as just let it slide so now need a few weeks of being strict about it. Something else will slide but it’s just making sure you pick up on it and then take action to make it better before it becomes a problem.
 
LEC said:
It depends how much you correct. The trailer thing would not bother me but I would make sure the essentials were 100% and he was straight. That is the bit I would be super strict about correcting. With mounting I wouldn’t even get on if they moved and would do it over and over again until it was correct. My 5yo used to stand and then step away very subtly so he might do it 20x until it was 100% and now is good as gold.
It’s just a discipline issue and that is usually from the handler. We often make a rod for our own backs by it being good enough when actually it should be excellent. The problem with good enough is it papers over the issues and they just keep lurking.

I suspect the issue is you have been accepting average when you need to actually up your game and demand excellent. Backing up being a classic. I expect immediate and if it’s not then I raise my energy through body language, add a voice signal usually and increase the pressure. Then do it again and again until it’s excellent.
Horses learn by repetition and it goes with what Carl Hester says about Charlotte DJ - what makes Charlotte one of the best is she will make sure it’s perfect every time and work on it if it isn’t.
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/\ This!

Although what is essential for one person isn't necessarily the same as what is essential for the next person. We all have slightly different ways of riding and what is important to some people isn't as important to others.

Essential for me is standing at the mounting block nicely until I ask to move off, due to past experiences (caused by my acceptance of 'good enough' in my younger years) mounting is my nemesis, so I've worked really hard on this with both the babies. I've done sessions with the 3 year old with out sitting on just standing at the steps and going through the motions of mounting - its very important to me. (glad I have my own place - if I was on a livery yard people would think I was mad the things I get up to) But I have a 3 year old that parks himself at the mounting block perfectly and stands there (for a treat) until I ask him to move off (in hand or with someone leading him if I do get on) and we will continue to practice this as his education progresses.
 
Marigold4 said:
Anyone got any training ideas for this? Would TRT methods help? My horse is now 8 and I have owned him since he was 2. In the meantime, I have backed and sold on 3 youngsters who are out hunting and eventing successfully. My 8-year-old is quite a different kettle of fish. He doesn't do anything sinister, but just argues about everything. Here's some examples, when loading, he will go in but has to have 5 minutes of standing on the ramp thinking about it and making a fuss beforehand. If doing groundwork, he will move over and back up nicely but always takes his time and does it when he feels ready. Mounting, he will mostly stand still but always has to take two steps forward as I get on. It's like he always has to have the last word on everything! I've probably let this go on too long, excusing it as a young horse thing, but now he's 8, I need to find ways of teaching him to be more compliant. I know it doesn't seem much on the face of it, but it affects everything he does. On the face of it, he is doing what he is told, but also getting one over me by the way he does it.
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I'm confused about your post. You start by seeming to (justifiably) envy the people out eventing and hunting on the horses you sold, but then go on to describe a set of behaviours which wouldn't stop you from doing that yourself. Is hunting/competing an aim and can you identify what's stopping you from doing that?

On the ground work I'd want to make sure he's OK neurologically, because the horses I've known that would fit what you are describing with that were wobblers. The basic neuro tests are easy to do for yourself and will take less than 5 minutes.

After that, I agree with what everyone says about demanding excellence, but within reason. A phrase which has stuck with me since I first heard it is "the best is the enemy of the good", meaning that in any one training session, a relentless search for excellence can destroy work which was actually good. It's a fine balance, and I'd probably suggest you should demand "better" until "better" becomes "excellence" and not demand excellence straight away.

Let us know how you get on.
 
ycbm said:
I'm confused about your post. You start by seeming to (justifiably) envy the people out eventing and hunting on the horses you sold, but then go on to describe a set of behaviours which wouldn't stop you from doing that yourself. Is hunting/competing an aim and can you identify what's stopping you from doing that?

On the ground work I'd want to make sure he's OK neurologically, because the horses I've known that would fit what you are describing with that were wobblers. The basic neuro tests are easy to do for yourself and will take less than 5 minutes.

After that, I agree with what everyone says about demanding excellence, but within reason. A phrase which has stuck with me since I first heard it is "the best is the enemy of the good", meaning that in any one training session, a relentless search for excellence can destroy work which was actually good. It's a fine balance, and I'd probably suggest you should demand "better" until "better" becomes "excellence" and not demand excellence straight away.

Let us know how you get on.
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I have no interest in eventing and hunting, so not envious. The reason I mentioned the other horses I have started and what they are doing is to show that I seem reasonably good with backing youngsters, getting them to their first competitions and hacking confidently on their own. All 3 have sold to the first person to see them (two to the same family!). They were projects to fill the time till this one was ready (I got him when he was two) - and he has taken time. My training style worked well for the other youngsters but this one is trickier! He has a different/slightly resistant temperament. I've not had a horse like him before and I'm trying to tease out how to improve without bullying him. My new instructor thinks we will make more progress once I deal with the "micro-resistances".

He shows no signs of neurological problems - nor PSSM before someone mentions it!
 
To be honest, I found I had more issues when I tried to manage the micro resistances in mine.

But I dont mind a horse (well, he's a pony) with a lot of character and his default setting was 'Nope' to whatever you asked him. I will say, he's become the most wonderfully hilarious but kind, geniune horse in time. I think a lot of it is to do with being allowed to express himself and have an opinion.

Professionals often comment on his manners so he's not ill-mannered just tenacious in spirit and knows his own mind.

I have to say, I rather admire him for it.
 
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MuddyMonster said:
To be honest, I found I had more issues when I tried to manage the micro resistances in mine.

But I dont mind a horse (well, he's a pony) with a lot of character and his default setting was 'Nope' to whatever you asked him. I will say, he's become the most wonderfully hilarious but kind, geniune horse in time. I think a lot of it is to do with being allowed to express himself and have an opinion.

Professionals often comment on his manners so he's not ill-mannered just tenacious in spirit and knows his own mind.

I have to say, I rather admire him for it.
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MuddyMonster said:
To be honest, I found I had more issues when I tried to manage the micro resistances in mine.

But I dont mind a horse (well, he's a pony) with a lot of character and his default setting was 'Nope' to whatever you asked him. I will say, he's become the most wonderfully hilarious but kind, geniune horse in time. I think a lot of it is to do with being allowed to express himself and have an opinion.

Professionals often comment on his manners so he's not ill-mannered just tenacious in spirit and knows his own mind.

I have to say, I rather admire him for it.
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Mine doesn't quite say "no"; he says "do I really, really have to?". Like yours though, he's kind and funny. I will have a go at asking a bit more compliance from him and see where it takes us. Maybe it's best to let him express his opinion (as he does now), maybe not. We shall see! The last thing I want is to make him bad-tempered, so it will be an experiment done with kindness but persistence. It already sounds a bit exhausting!
 
Gosh, I know I’m being a total bore, but is he comfortable?
I just wonder with all these little resistances…
Or maybe he’s just napping a little bit because he doesn’t really want to leave his friends/yard?

I wouldn’t go as far as getting the vet, but I do know a change of saddle, even a different girth/bit has made a difference to mine in terms of little behaviors. One used to take a couple of steps backwards when bridling, that stopped after a visit from the dentist. Likewise, a fluffy girth sleeve and a change of saddle pad meant one no longer swung his quarters away from the mounting block.
Also, many years ago, we moved house to a new area and a different farrier, suddenly everyone started standing still by the mounting block and loading nicely! Felt so guilty, thought the other one was fine…
 
My avatar pony could be his twin. Kind, comical but oh so opinionated. As a youngster he pushed me around because I was to wishy washy with him and after one particular incident it was TFF on here who put me straight on what to do to get the best out of him. He’s now a polite, well mannered horse but he hasn’t lost his sense of humour. I also know after encountering some rather treacherous conditions where I really needed to be in charge for both our safety that in a serious situation he will follow my instruction without any debate and although he doesn’t often show it he does actually look upon me as his herd leader.

He’s not one to be bullied so it’s firm but kind until he does as he’s asked. The last thing I would ever want is for him to lose his spark and character by shutting him down.
 
Jellymoon said:
Gosh, I know I’m being a total bore, but is he comfortable?
I just wonder with all these little resistances…
Or maybe he’s just napping a little bit because he doesn’t really want to leave his friends/yard?

I wouldn’t go as far as getting the vet, but I do know a change of saddle, even a different girth/bit has made a difference to mine in terms of little behaviors. One used to take a couple of steps backwards when bridling, that stopped after a visit from the dentist. Likewise, a fluffy girth sleeve and a change of saddle pad meant one no longer swung his quarters away from the mounting block.
Also, many years ago, we moved house to a new area and a different farrier, suddenly everyone started standing still by the mounting block and loading nicely! Felt so guilty, thought the other one was fine…
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He doesn't nap leaving the yard. He's just slow/a bit resistant to being told what to do, mostly on the ground. I am super careful with his saddle and the physio who has known him since he was 3 says his back is very good. I had it x-rayed before I backed him so I know it is a lovely back with lots of spaces between the processes and no reason to think that has changed. He's not unhappy just has an opinion about everything and whether he should really do it or not. He's a happy boy - in fact I'm not sure I have ever seen his ears back. He's very sound and I have a trimmer every 5 weeks for him and trim his toes myself in between. I tack him up loose and he's not bothered. I hear what you are saying but I'm very vigilant and am the first to get the vet in if I even think there might be an issue.
 
You sound like an amazing owner!

Am assuming he’s barefoot? Does he need you trimming his toes in between 5 wks trimmer visits? He might be a bit footsore. Just a thought.
 
They can be polite and well mannered without being robotic and shut down. I like horses with personality but do not like rude horses. It really is just firm but fair and kind repetition and not letting anything slide. Once the behaviour is established then you can let them have some slack, but in a young horse you need to be on it all the time.
 
Jellymoon said:
You sound like an amazing owner!

Am assuming he’s barefoot? Does he need you trimming his toes in between 5 wks trimmer visits? He might be a bit footsore. Just a thought.
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Perhaps "trimming" is overstating what we do. He has toes that would like to run forward and we have found the best way to keep his foot where it needs to be is by doing minute rasping adjustments but frequently. By doing this we achieve a balance throughout the trim period. His feet look rather good - even if I say it myself! He does have thin soles though so hoofboots are a must for hacking and if the ground is hard.
 
Ah, ok, so my thoughts on this would be that if he’s not comfortable hacking without boots on and he has thin soles, he might be living with constant mild foot discomfort which could account for him being ‘a horse who argues about everything’.

I’m not going to suggest shoes as you are clearly a committed and knowledgeable barefoot person, but perhaps the barefoot community may have some ideas?
 
Marigold4 said:
He doesn't nap leaving the yard. He's just slow/a bit resistant to being told what to do, mostly on the ground. I am super careful with his saddle and the physio who has known him since he was 3 says his back is very good. I had it x-rayed before I backed him so I know it is a lovely back with lots of spaces between the processes and no reason to think that has changed. He's not unhappy just has an opinion about everything and whether he should really do it or not. He's a happy boy - in fact I'm not sure I have ever seen his ears back. He's very sound and I have a trimmer every 5 weeks for him and trim his toes myself in between. I tack him up loose and he's not bothered. I hear what you are saying but I'm very vigilant and am the first to get the vet in if I even think there might be an issue.
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Assuming you've no plans to sell, if you are happy with him (and it sounds as if you are) does it matter what other people think?

A horse/owner partnership is like a marriage - bits of it might look rum to outsiders but if those involved are happy that's all that matters imo
 
Jellymoon said:
Ah, ok, so my thoughts on this would be that if he’s not comfortable hacking without boots on and he has thin soles, he might be living with constant mild foot discomfort which could account for him being ‘a horse who argues about everything’.

I’m not going to suggest shoes as you are clearly a committed and knowledgeable barefoot person, but perhaps the barefoot community may have some ideas?
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Very few horses would manage without boots for hacking where I live. Sharp flints everywhere!
 
Marigold4 said:
Perhaps "trimming" is overstating what we do. He has toes that would like to run forward and we have found the best way to keep his foot where it needs to be is by doing minute rasping adjustments but frequently. By doing this we achieve a balance throughout the trim period. His feet look rather good - even if I say it myself! He does have thin soles though so hoofboots are a must for hacking and if the ground is hard.
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I mirror all of this with my horse, and it is on my trimmer's insistence that I trim weekly too. (I am not a fan of trimming myself but needs must). I enjoy the 5th week when he is professionally done!
 
Jellymoon said:
Ah, ok, so my thoughts on this would be that if he’s not comfortable hacking without boots on and he has thin soles, he might be living with constant mild foot discomfort which could account for him being ‘a horse who argues about everything’.

I’m not going to suggest shoes as you are clearly a committed and knowledgeable barefoot person, but perhaps the barefoot community may have some ideas?
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Not sure that fits the description, by that logic putting hoof boots with pads in would change his behavior. IME foot sore horses are reluctant on hard / stony ground consistently. Not initially and then fine. And OP hasnt said he lacking in forwardness when ridden. Just he's a bit hesitant mainly on the ground to requests.
 
Fieldlife said:
I mirror all of this with my horse, and it is on my trimmer's insistence that I trim weekly too. (I am not a fan of trimming myself but needs must). I enjoy the 5th week when he is professionally done!
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It kills my back rasping but I get a lot of "job satisfaction" from seeing a well-balanced foot in the right place to support his weight.
 
Fieldlife said:
Not sure that fits the description, by that logic putting hoof boots with pads in would change his behavior. IME foot sore horses are reluctant on hard / stony ground consistently. Not initially and then fine. And OP hasnt said he lacking in forwardness when ridden. Just he's a bit hesitant mainly on the ground to requests.
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Yes, that's it - a bit hesitant to requests, mostly on the ground. He's been like this since I got him just before his second birthday - and he's now eight! The professional transporter who helped me pick him up as a baby, when observing how difficult he was to load, told me this was a "very difficult horse in the making". I think it's his temperament. He doesn't have great feet - that is true. He's 40% TB. But that is a different problem. His preferred pace is canter and will offer it frequently out of trot, so not reluctant to go forward. Once cantering he would like to keep going. It does make me laugh. He has the most gorgeous floatey canter and enjoys doing it. I think he thinks he looks lovely cantering - and he does!
 
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