A legal Q

J

JaneMBE

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Theoretical Q....

You bought a horse (foal) from someone you knew. Down the line things went pearshaped and you now have nothing to do with him/her.
Three years or so after, you have contact with breeder of youngster and have been told that actually the youngster was never paid for.
How do you stand legally, having bought what is in effect stolen property?
 
Apparently with horses it's all in the receipt if you have a receipt from when you purchased the foal then it is leagally yours.

Perhaps worth ringing the BHS legal helpline on this one though?
 
It would depend on whether the breeder had made a complaint to the police about the other party not paying or whether they had tried to instigate legal proceedings through a solicitor for payment or return of the horse. ( It is not necesserily stolen property it would depend on what arangements the breeder had with the third party on payment and whether there was a contract about payments. Depending on this contract it would make the difference between it being a criminal matter, and therefore delt with by the police or whether it was a civil matter, delt with by way of solicitor ) If the horse was reported stolen and a crime taken for theft then regardless of whether you have a receipt it doesnt mean you own the horse. The police would become involved and the matter taken to the court under what is called an interpleader. This means that the breeder owns the horse but someone has been an innocent purchaser of the horse. It would then be upto the courts to decide on who has claim to the horse. As you havent given any more details on what the breeders thoughts are on the matter i suggest a solicitor be contacted anyway.
 
Have you got the original passport (i.e. the one the breeder would have had to hand over) I would say that would stand you in pretty good stead as to the ownership of the horse - as someone selling a horse there is no way the passport would be handed over without the cash.
 
In a nutshell, wether it be a horse, a car, a television or whatever if it is stolen property, no matter if you knew or not when you paid for it it can never be your property. It always remains the property of the original owner & will retain title to the goods, animal whatever.

Any arrangement made between the original owner & new "owner" is a separate matter, it does not however change what the law says in matters like this.
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Have you got the original passport (i.e. the one the breeder would have had to hand over) I would say that would stand you in pretty good stead as to the ownership of the horse - as someone selling a horse there is no way the passport would be handed over without the cash.

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Unfortunately, Passports have very little to do with it. They are not proof of ownership.They are also not retained by the owner (or shouldn't be) if the horse is on loan, it should be in the hands of the person loaning, and would therefore mean any unscrupulous person could sell the horse on with the passport
 
well, my theoretical has become a bit of a tale, and way too convoluted to post about! Would be happy to pm anyone that could help or knows a bit.
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I've got a problem. My husbands horse was at a yard on livery and was sold without our permission. We reported it to the police and they say its civil. The new owner has stated she paid for the horse to the guy who owned the yard. He says we gave him permission to sell the horse and admits he never paid us.

We want the horse back. We didn't tell him he could sell it. He has since disappeared and has sold lots of other people's horses and not paid them either (although he did have permission to sell those horses).

Anyone got any legal advice on this. Our lawyer is instigating legal proceedings but we are worried about the cost of this.
 
Go back to the Police Station you reported the matter to & speak to one of the senior officers about the matter.

The original officer gave you the wrong advice. This is definately not a civil matter, this is straight forward theft & the Police should take on the investigation. You should also provide details of the other complainant in this matter aswell because evidence of 'system' is good evidence to use in matters of this nature.

Too many ill informed & lazy officers try to tell people that offences are civil matters rather than take on the enquiry.

Good Luck
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We spoke to the acting seargent who insists that this is a civil matter as the horse was in his possession.

He let the horse leave the yard on 'trial' and we managed to find the trainer of the woman buying the horse and told her clearly the horse was not for sale and we wanted it back. She refused to tell us where the horse was or who her client was.

We managed to then, some months later, find the details of the owner of the horse. She confirmed that she had paid him £3000 when she took the horse and then a further £4000 - and the trainer never told her about our phone calls. I have witnesses to the phone calls!

Another question - the crime committed in Raydon and we live in Northants. The guy has now left the area. Which police station deals with it, as the station close to Raydon don't seem to want to run with it, even though lots of people have been in touch about this guy's 'business practices' and theft etc.

Why will they not take this seriously.
 
Lots of things don't quite stack up with this one. PM me as I don't want to ask on Open.
 
It should be investigated in the area the theft took place. I don't see how they can get out of investigating it, he appropriated your property and disposed of it without your permission, it is civil, but it is also criminal. I would go back to them, Home Office crime counting rules mean that they have an obligation to record and investigate crimes reported to them
 
It is definitely theft, and so the police must accept that (although apparently are not obliged to investigate if they dont feel like it). They must let you file a report though.

The rules regarding stolen property are: You can only pass on the title which you have. So if I steal your horse, then sell it to someone, I can only give them my rubbish title, not your good one.

HOWEVER, the law of agency could become involved when you freely hand your horse over to someone. The rule is that if you put them in a position where they can misrepresent themselves as your agent (entitled to sell the horse) then you have a claim against them, but not against an innocent third party purchaser. With cars, the rule was that if you leave your car with a mechanic, that isnt putting them in position as agent. If you leave your car and your logbook with them, that is putting in position as agent and you only have a claim against the mechanic, not the right to recover the car from the person they sold to.

In your situation, the horse's passport could be seen as analogous to a log book and could cause you to lose the case. On the other hand, as it is illegal for a loaner to transport the horse etc without the passport you may be in a stronger position than the hypothetical car owner.

If your lawyer has instigated proceedings against the seller, you are in a strong position, if against the buyer, I am divided about 50/50 on which side it would come down legally, without any evidenciary issues that may be involved.
 
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