A National Stallion Show, 2011, your further thoughts,,,perhaps!

Alec Swan

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This is following on from previous threads. I would say from the outset and to date, that I have no vested interests in such an event.

There will be lessons to be learned from the 2010 Expo. That cannot be in question. There are those who have suggested that there is a future offering, standing in the wings.

Many years ago I learned how to view any intended plan with the basic tenet that if it fails, then can I live with failure?

From a business viewpoint, and I can't see a better approach, those concerned should consider the likely market, and the likely costs.

At the 2010 Expo and so I'm told, there were 423 tickets sold. If we consider that these tickets were sold to an audience which collectively owned, perhaps 300 mares, then that simply isn't enough potential mares to warrant such a show. There will be those owners who wouldn't, or didn't turn up, on principle. That I accept.

We are all accepting of the fact that there is a definite need for such a show, but there are many factors to consider.

A/ The venue, and the costs. As an example, I 'phoned a County show ground to enquire as to the likely costs of an equine event, which with 2 days of set up, 2 days of the show itself, and then a day to clear up, and what would be the likely costs. Are you ready for this? It was £20k! If those who are to produce such an event, were to set their sights a little lower, and there were enough loose boxes for 100 stallions, then where would such a venue be found?

B/ Assuming that there were 1000 mare owners who attended, then there would be the need for a venue which would have adequate facilities to cope with such numbers.

C/ That the bodies, within the UK, who regulate our sport seem to be either unwilling, or unable to promote such an event, and accepting without question, their stand point, then does it make you wonder if there is a real appetite, within the UK, for such an event?

D/ The vaulted and in my view valuable, Breeders Guide raised many valid points, regarding British Breeding. If we ignore those points, then we will continue as we are, and we will retain what we have. Assuming that we aren't prepared to continue with the status quo, then it is up to us to change it.

It would be my dearest, and current wish, that this post will receive a strong response, and one, whereby those who are planning to produce the 2011 National Stallion Show, will listen to your thoughts. I accept that my thoughts have been of a negative nature, and though this is genuinely not my intention, the question has to be asked, "That without National support, will it actually happen?"

I would hope that those who feel inclined to respond will do so in such a way that we can deal with the future, rather than the past.

If this thread receives 1000 hits, without any response, then we'll know the answer, wont we?!!

I would be particularly interested to hear of your collective thoughts.

Alec.
 

Rollin

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A poster on another forum recently attended a show in France which was free to stallion owners.

A few months ago I attended a huge dressage competition at the national riding school, Saumur (Cadre Noir) entry and parking were free.

We attend three day events, racing and carriage driving in this region as spectators. Entry is inexpensive and parking always free. Always well catered with reasonably priced drinks and snacks.

Result lots of people attend and whole families turn out.

Perhaps the BEF should push for the sort of facilities that France provides to support equestrian sports. Reasonable ticket prices encourage family participation - and of course the riders/suporters of the future.

On a personal note - I would love to see our Rare Breed and Native Stallions at these events and not just the stars of the jumping and dressage world.
 

Diggory

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Alec, I gather you have been advised more than once to contact Cruiseline re. the stallion show she has mentioned on this forum that is on the cards. Why not do so, and give her your thoughts?
 

BallyshanHorses

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We also have stallion shows here in Ireland.It would not be what I call National but it is regional and open to any stallion and there is usually some crossover with stallions attending numerous shows in Spring.We would always try to attend at least one or make an effort to travel if there was something we really wanted to see.There are always good numbers of breeders attending and I would say we have the opposite to you in the fact that there are huge numbers of attendants with fewer stallions but that comes down to geography at the end of the day and the fact that stallion owners tend to show their stallions locally.I think we as a nation are known for producing large numbers of foals and I think that is where you are struggling.Is there the same emphasis on breeding or is the lack of spectators down to the fact that it did not seem that well advertised???????

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Fleur100

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Personally I feel that the only way a UK stallion show can truly work is if the various societies & stud books work together or there is some UK/EU subsidy. In this recession large corporate sponsors are hard to find.

You then have the issues around licensing/grading. I really would like to see these events opened up to some of our native ponies/ rare breeds as well which are often licensed & graded by their own societies but excluded because they are not graded with the sports horse/pony societies.

Entry for the spectators should be free and to encourage the stallion owners to put in the time & effort a greatly reduced fee could be charged. Then you might see what is truly available out there.
 

sywell

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Until horses become livestock and the taxation burden removed from breeders as has happend in many E.U. countries and rates are removed it is more or less impossible to have a strong grassroots breeding industry. Clearly the current goverment has little respect for breeders and addition financial burdens are being placed all the time look at lorries for private owners and the cost sharing bill. The number of breeders moving to France is interesting as one said they get grants for work areas and having the title horse breeder in your passport is something the goverment supports. It is like that the long term work of individuals who work hard for free to run Stallion shows is probably the only way forward.
 

magic104

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"You then have the issues around licensing/grading. I really would like to see these events opened up to some of our native ponies/ rare breeds as well which are often licensed & graded by their own societies but excluded because they are not graded with the sports horse/pony societies." - Fully agree with that, because I was thinking I would quiet like to see some QH's & more of the Spanish breeds & how their input can benifit sporthorse breeding. Native ponies have contributed hugely yet seem to be forgotten. The more varied the stallions the more mare owners you would hope would attend. I was going to mention in my thread about being more open, then remembered that this seems to be a show for those breeding show jumpers, eventers & dressage horses rather then the games pony for instance. Commander is a branded Oldenburg yet his dam Fancy Ruler has QH & paint (where the colour comes from) in her breeding. My 4yo maybe a good 16hh (probably a little taller) yet he can turn on a sixpence. He is very nimble, but has better movement in his shoulder, then most QH's I have seen. He is very easy to deal with on the ground, a little sharper under saddle. He would have been a keeper if he had just been a filly!

To encourage more people there has to be more stallions to appeal across the range. I would have thought that would not be too hard then to fill 100 places if that is the aim. I suspect though that the aim is to concentrate on the 3 main disciplines & stick with the known breeds for them.
 

the watcher

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The native breeds do tend to have their own shows/stallion parades throughout the year but i do agree that if you are going to showcase British Stallions it shouldn't be exclusive - as long as they are of a reasonable standard realistically any stallion could be entered.

However I think you also have to start somewhere and can see that the biggest shortfall in bringing stallions together is currently in the sporthorse market, so it would make sense to start here and then extend an event in subsequent years perhaps to encompass other breeds which also contribute to our breeding heritage.
 

Aredis

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If people did actually want more events of this type then surely the existing ones would be better supported and commercially viable.

The cost of putting on a show and complying with the increasing legislation and claim culture is restrictive.

To get large scale events running on a regular basis it would seem to me that they need to be run on a commercial basis and if they are not succeeding then there is a reason.

I could not go to the Expo but found the video links on H & C very interesting, and enough to put me off one horse when seen at the trot.
Also noted the BEF were supporting the Expo on H & C and for an event in its first year seemed to achieve a lot.

It looked on the videos like there were not a lot of bums on seats at Expo 2010 so what makes others think there is a market that can support a stand alone event of this type.

If you have the time and money and commitment to spend organising something like this then good on you I would try and attend, but how many will run a second or third year ?

I have usually made my mind up on stallions a year in advance and then visit them at studs before booking.

Nice to have a day out to see the stallions but will mare owners arrive with pockets full of cash to spend ? if not then they will not continue.
 

LynneB

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it certainly does need people with a positive "can do" approach to organise something. As with all things, those who start off negatively, such as some of the posts on here, just have that filter down the whole scenario rather than have creative and flourishing ideas which will ensure it succeeds.

If people don't know about an event, outside of an "inner breeding circle" how can they attend? Ask any of your friends involved with horses and even those who are hobby breeders what the BEF or Futurity or PSHP are...that is not to be negative about them, most deserve all the support they can get...but people need to know about them and currently, sadly, not as many as people would like do.
 

Rollin

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You are quite right about breed society shows - but they tend to attract those who are already fans of that breed.

There are so many new entrants to horse riding we need to attract them to venues so they have an opportunity to see different breeds. I understand that at the show in France, owners had a chance to say something about the horses of show.
 

Rollin

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Aredis I DO understand what you are saying - but I think those of us who have a passion for a particular breed may not always understand the importance of commercial 'marketing'

I had a long marketing career with American and Scandinavian companies. My delightful Danish MD used to tell this story.

Two salesman were sent to a third world country to sell shoes.

One wrote back to his HO "There is no opportunity for us here - no one wears shoes' the other wrote to his HO 'Fantastic Oportunity. No one has any shoes'.
wink.gif
 

jamesmead

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I think the expo should be seen as an encouragement rather than otherwise. Even with the negative aspects of the organisation and the relatively high costs to participants, it DID run; a lot of people enjoyed the day and a lot of people were prepared to accept that low standard and give it a second chance.

Imagine a non horsey event- say, the Ideal Home Exhibition, cobbled together weeks before, advertised, really, only on facebook and on an obscure and misnamed website; how well would that have done? Would you expect that to succeed? For the expo to have run at all, there clearly is a need and a hunger for such an event, and the low turnout for the expo should be viewed in context, I think.

Many existing events on a smaller scale, have actually done very well relative to their size. I was at a stallion parade a few years ago which was so crowded it was positively dangerous, with the audience sharing the arena with the stallions.

Also, though some of the old Agricultural Shows are going under, other events are rising and thriving. My eyes were opened by a visit to the Game Fair at Perth in Scotland a few years ago. Now who would have thought that a public show that is based on country sports would stand a chance in this political climate? But its huge and apparently still growing. It was outwith my area of interest- not at all horsey- but still a good day out.

So what makes people go to these events?

Personally, had I felt that the expo was going to be what was being promised I would definately have gone. I had the date pencilled into my diary and was hoping to be persuaded that the organisers were actually going to come up with the goods. I decided not to bother when I realised that they were being economical with the truth.

I presently live a long way from the PHSP events and if one were held nearer, yes, I would go to that; however, I would not take a weekend out and travel long distance to visit a low-key and unentertaining parade unless this was my one chance to see a particular horse. In this the expo organisers were right, I think; we punters like to be amused; to learn things, to buy things, to see things we would not otherwise have seen, to enjoy the social aspects and to see a wealth of stallions in a vibrant and exciting atmosphere. If a competent, far sighted team puts its mind to this, yes, I think they can pull it off, and people will travel (I know I would) to be there.

Although its always worth trying to improve what we have already, I cannot see the PHSP events developing in this way as this is not how the PHSP sees its brief; they will always remain sober and low-key, IMO.

Now for the wish list: though I would like to see native breeds and others as well as sportshorse stallions, I wouldn't like to see this degenerate (sorry- its clear I'm not into showing!) into just a show; I would like the performance aspect to be emphasised; I'd like to see CBs and QHs under saddle and jumping, etc. etc. I think the shop window for native breeds tends to be the show ring and I think that rather sidelines them, personally; you never see what they are capable of doing.

In short, I think in the hands of a capable team, this will run and could be excellent in itself and the start of a resurgence for British breeding.
 

jamesmead

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just a thought; how do we tell whether an event is worthwhile or not?

[ QUOTE ]
At the 2010 Expo and so I'm told, there were 423 tickets sold. If we consider that these tickets were sold to an audience which collectively owned, perhaps 300 mares, then that simply isn't enough potential mares to warrant such a show.

[/ QUOTE ]

Apart from the 423 (if indeed this is correct) we don't really know the figures involved here, but they seem a fair enough assumption.

So, say that they ARE correct:

300 mares.

Say only one mare in 3 is covered as a direct result of the expo and coverings cost an average of £500.

100 x 500; thats £50,000 worth of coverings generated and shared (unequally, admittedly, as some stallions shone more than others) between the stallions present. That is not to be sniffed at; and it would have been generated by what was, to be brutally honest, a low-calibre event.

OK, it is not all new income to breeding as many of those owners would have bought coverings anyway, either in this country or abroad; yet it does give a glimpse of the potential worth and financial vibrancy of a BIG breeding event, properly run, attractively packaged, at a high class venue. Magic's earlier suggestion of Addington, for example; that would immediately put it onto a different level.
 

Fleur100

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[ QUOTE ]

ld like to see native breeds and others as well as sportshorse stallions, I wouldn't like to see this degenerate (sorry- its clear I'm not into showing!) into just a show; I would like the performance aspect to be emphasised; I'd like to see CBs and QHs under saddle and jumping, etc. etc. I think the shop window for native breeds tends to be the show ring and I think that rather sidelines them, personally; you never see what they are capable of doing.



[/ QUOTE ]

There are many part-bred & pure bred native ponies competing in dressage, eventing & showjumping. The New Forest ponies (yes I am biased) do extremely well and there are now NF stallions graded by the SPSS
 

DAHH

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Last week I attended the Salon des etalons stallion show in normandie. It is organised by the National stud, which in my opinion is vital. I cannot see a show such as the Expo ever being entirely successful without the backing of a central body such as a stud book or national association. They would bring with them greater resources, and a far higher profile than most individuals.

However, if someone is wanting to organise an event then you wouldn't go far wrong using the Salon des etalons as a template.

There were 130 stallions, mostly showjumping lines. They ranged from 4 year olds just starting out through to superstars like Arko III and Baloubet du rouet.

Each stallion was shown over jumps or on the flat. Retired horses were shown in hand. Each horse was shown for about 5 minutes and whilst in the ring, the owner or representative was interviewed. They talked about the horses competition record, their breeding lines, the cost of covering and even advised as to the type of mare best suited to the stallion.

The stables were easily accessible and each horse had its stud card on the stable door. There was even a map showing in which stall you could find which stallion.

The amount of information available was excellent. I came away with an armful of brochures.

Entry was free for spectators, as was a running order list and a brochure with a picture and breeding of each stallion. There were hundreds of people there each day. People were standing 4 deep around the showing ring and many more were sitting in the stands.


The whole weekend was thoroughly enjoyable. The only criticism I could make was that the choice of stallion was too great. They were all so beautiful, I am no closer to making my choices for this year!!
 

Alec Swan

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This thread seems to have run out of steam, fairly quickly. No matter. The points raised have been valid and I would suggest, valuable and interesting, specifically those of Aredis and James Mead. I would hope that those who are planning next year's show(s), will pick up on them, be they the last promoter, or fresh.

I think that there is no doubt that it will be vital for the registration bodies and, or, those who act with authority to get behind any future promotions. Tacit support, really wont be enough. We do need major changes from them. These changes wont happen overnight, or in total by next year, but there must be a will for change, improvement and support. It may well be that the whole registration system is so fragmented, that gathering under one umbrella is out of the question. As I don't really understand our registration systems, then "Don't know", is the answer, to that!

If we are able to keep private agendas to a minimum, and all concentrate on moving forwards, then I see no earthly reason why we shouldn't, given time, become a force to be reckoned with, within the EU breeding world.

I suppose that it's now a case of wait and see.

Alec.
 

nomis

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Alec, you obviously have a lot you wish to contribute to whatever venture, so why do you not contact Cruiseline? Maybe you have already done so?

[ QUOTE ]
This thread seems to have run out of steam, fairly quickly

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe this is because you have posted similar views in several threads recently? People know who the organiser is of the Expo, and there have been several posts on who is responsible for the new show (Cruiseline), so perhaps you need to take what you have posted on these threads and speak to these two people direct.
 

the watcher

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[ QUOTE ]
Just a thought but the best place for a national stallion show would be to tag it on to an existing major event like HOYS or Your horse Live, you would have a captive audiance!

Just a thought

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, i just wonder how this would fit in to the timing of the breeding season, and the YHL doesn't really cross over with the potential breeding market in my opinion
 

Truly

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I would suggest the best place to hold a stallion parade/show would be at show or event already being held.
You would already have spectators there and
you wouldn't have to pay out for all the facilities or organise them.

There are quite a few County shows towards the end of the Summer that would be ideal to hold a stallion show at the same time.
Lots of showgrounds also have an indoor for the loose jumping too.

I know I'd take my boys (and pay) if the venue and spectators were guaranteed like a county show.
 

volatis

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The problem with a stallion show at the end of the summer if mares are all ready in foal and you are relyig on mare owners remembering it is your stallion they want to use next season, for the next 8 to 10 months.

As a mare owner I like to see a stallion show in January to march time, before the show season starts and before they foal down.
 

maestro

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Years ago the HIS stallion show and grading in March was a must do and 100s of people made the pilgrmage. It was a wonerful venue at Newmarket and you were able to get close up to the stallions in the stables and talk to the trainers. Given that SHBGB already book Addington could they I wonder get together with other books and make proper use of the venue in March. We will continue to support the PSHP but if only people could pull together it could be a tremendous show.
 

woodlander

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I think it is unfair to describe the PSHP Stallion Events as, essentially, low key. The number of stallions presented is almost identical to the number of stallions presented at a show for private stallions held in Verden. What makes the difference is the attitude of the audience and their preparedness to let their hair down and have fun.

The Stallion Event at Hartpury on 21st March will have over 40 stallions, including, we are promised, Baloubet de Rouet who is an International Legend. There are top showjumpers from Shirley Light, a great choice of young dressage stallions and some serious eventers. There is music, refreshments in the arena area and, for serious breeders, plenty of information.

It seems to me that what is needed most is a change of mind set
 

jamesmead

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With all due respect, organisers have to attract an audience; its not fair to leave it to the stallion owners, even those who CAN be trusted to deliver the goods, like Shirley Light. Will the facilities for the letting down of hair at Hartpury be comparable to those at Verden?
 

jamesmead

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Having now seen the self-congratulatory outpourings on Mr Rehill's expo facebook site, suggesting that Baloubet and Grafenstolz (and not the stallions owned and promoted by businesses based in this country) are going to be the Stars of the Hartpury Parade, I find I have to ask; why is the PSHP allowing its parade to be hi-jacked as a sales pitch for the promotion of essentially foreign-owned stallions, rather than supporting the industry in Britain, as is surely their brief?

I'm suspending my disbelief here for a moment and assuming that there is a good reason why the PSHP is willing to entertain doing business with someone whose ongoing behaviour and past form must be making the lawyers rub their hands expectantly.
 
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