A needle phobic horse, how to manage ‘the end’

Spotherisk said:
I suppose the one thing that hasn’t been discussed is cost. Having my horse pts by the vet at 1am and then his body collected the next day for cremation was a lot more money than using just one agency, and I assume the hunt would be less again.


I realise it’s not relevant to everyone but the costs can be a shock.
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The knackerman costs the same here whether he shoots or not. Our local hunt feed the hounds on kibble, so they have to pay for body disposal, if you can get them to shoot your animal and you have to transport to them. The vet costs are not cheap and it can be a slower death than the bullet.
 
We are fortunate to have an Equine Crematorium locally. The owner's father used to run the local abattoir before the regulations changed. She and her staff are brilliant with horses and they always go calmly with their heads in a bucket of feed.
Ime, the experience for the horse is better with a shot. It's quicker, there is very little prep needed that the horse is involved with and as a bonus, the body can be removed immediately. I've had 2 injected in emergencies and they both objected to the fluid going in.
I really think that, like OP, the owner must put the horse's needs first, rather than the feelings of bystanders when deciding how to pts.
 
I'm surprised people have had horses which have issues with the final injection - every one I've been at has been so out of its head on sedative the injection into the jugular wasn't remotely an issue. And once that has been done they're down immediately.

The poorly handled feral took 2 x intra muscular over his door before we could even get the chifney on and clip to find the vein. The disposal men had a gun (on my request) but we still needed the sedative so I asked the vet to keep going. I was put in contact with someone who could have brought him down in the field but 1) felt a bit barbaric and 2) getting him out of a muddy field in Jan was problematic

OP - although it feels horrible I genuinely think training my old boy in preparation for his last day (whatever you choose) was the best thing i could have done. It was very peaceful
 
SEL said:
I'm surprised people have had horses which have issues with the final injection - every one I've been at has been so out of its head on sedative the injection into the jugular wasn't remotely an issue. And once that has been done they're down immediately.

The poorly handled feral took 2 x intra muscular over his door before we could even get the chifney on and clip to find the vein. The disposal men had a gun (on my request) but we still needed the sedative so I asked the vet to keep going. I was put in contact with someone who could have brought him down in the field but 1) felt a bit barbaric and 2) getting him out of a muddy field in Jan was problematic

OP - although it feels horrible I genuinely think training my old boy in preparation for his last day (whatever you choose) was the best thing i could have done. It was very peaceful
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Well, the big ID mare standing up on her back legs when she was being pts because of septicemia was pretty memorable!

The other was a Welsh section A with terminal laminitis who was lying down but tried to get up as the fluid went in.
That vet was a very experienced equine/farm vet, the other one was a younger normally small animal vet but didn't do anything untoward as far as I could see.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Well, the big ID mare standing up on her back legs when she was being pts because of septicemia was pretty memorable!

The other was a Welsh section A with terminal laminitis who was lying down but tried to get up as the fluid went in.
That vet was a very experienced equine/farm vet, the other one was a younger normally small animal vet but didn't do anything untoward as far as I could see.
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Was there no sedative first? The only one I've ever heard of having an issue was a colic and the YO complained to the vet practice. Turned out the staff member had gone in straight with the euthanasia drug to try and make it quicker. It wasn't.
 
Sorry to add an unpleasant question. Those of you who have chosen shooting, was cleaning up the blood an issue?

Also, when using injections I have always let the other horses see the dead body. Does the blood make this a traumatic thing for the other equines?

Again, thank you for sharing your valuable experiences in this unpleasant subject, I am the sort of person who really needs to be prepared in advance.
 
canteron said:
Sorry to add an unpleasant question. Those of you who have chosen shooting, was cleaning up the blood an issue?

Also, when using injections I have always let the other horses see the dead body. Does the blood make this a traumatic thing for the other equines?

Again, thank you for sharing your valuable experiences in this unpleasant subject, I am the sort of person who really needs to be prepared in advance.
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Sorry if it's an unpleasant answer. The ones we have had shot - there is some blood, and potentially also some other matter at the site. In the 3 cases I have been there for, there wasn't a vast quantity and it could be hosed away (we have a grass area where it was done). In these cases there weren't any very close equine friends who we felt needed to see the body.
 
canteron said:
Sorry to add an unpleasant question. Those of you who have chosen shooting, was cleaning up the blood an issue?

Also, when using injections I have always let the other horses see the dead body. Does the blood make this a traumatic thing for the other equines?

Again, thank you for sharing your valuable experiences in this unpleasant subject, I am the sort of person who really needs to be prepared in advance.
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There is usually a small amount of blood but easily cleaned up. We have Labradors using the same yard and they've never noticed afterwards.
We have allowed our other horses to see but not to approach the body.
 
SEL said:
Was there no sedative first? The only one I've ever heard of having an issue was a colic and the YO complained to the vet practice. Turned out the staff member had gone in straight with the euthanasia drug to try and make it quicker. It wasn't.
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I've had 2 bad experiences with euthanasia drugs and horses
one fought like hell with both the sedation and the PTS drugs. It was incredibly distressing to watch but injection was the only way as the horse had collapsed in the corner of a stable and it was deemed too unsafe to shoot.
the second was old (nearly 40) and his systems were already shutting down, the drugs took a very long time to work and there was fear on his face at the end.

It won't stop me using it in future if its my only option but my preference would be shooting either via hunt/knackerman or via vet with captive bolt.
 
canteron said:
Sorry to add an unpleasant question. Those of you who have chosen shooting, was cleaning up the blood an issue?

Also, when using injections I have always let the other horses see the dead body. Does the blood make this a traumatic thing for the other equines?

Again, thank you for sharing your valuable experiences in this unpleasant subject, I am the sort of person who really needs to be prepared in advance.
Click to expand...
My guy was shot last summer; the ground was parched and although the knackerman came especially early to avoid the heat the blood sat on the ground and congealed very quickly. It wouldn't wash away so we covered the patch with shavings as kids would be around later that day. His fieldmate wasn't at all bothered by any of it until the body was removed and he realised he was alone (briefly), but I would think your mileage would vary depending on the horse. The patch is still there, in fact - to my surprise it killed the grass.

I chose the bullet because although my guy wasn't needle-phobic (about the only thing he didn't have a little issue with, ironically) I neither wanted a conversation with the vet about my decision nor wanted him to have to put up with the faffing and the needles, which he clearly didn't love, even though he would tolerate them. It was just as already described by others - a big bucket of grass nuts and carrots, and he never (greedy so and so!) lifted his head out of the bucket even to acknowledge a stranger!
 
Pearlsasinger said:
There is usually a small amount of blood but easily cleaned up. We have Labradors using the same yard and they've never noticed afterwards.
We have allowed our other horses to see but not to approach the body.
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I learned from having a dog pts at home that death is instaneous as far as the others are concerned. Our dogs sat back out of the way while elderly Lab was injected. When the vet stood up and they were allowed to approach the body, they barely looked before treating her like a rug to talk to the vet.
When we had the last Rottweiler pts in the back of the car during Covid, the 2 Labs came back to the car, looked at the body on the ground and jumped straight into the car. Then one of them jumped back out for a 2nd look, checked that she had seen what she thought she'd seen and got back in of her own accord. They certainly grieve but they don't need to spend much time with the body to do that.
 
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SEL said:
I'm surprised people have had horses which have issues with the final injection - every one I've been at has been so out of its head on sedative the injection into the jugular wasn't remotely an issue. And once that has been done they're down immediately.

The poorly handled feral took 2 x intra muscular over his door before we could even get the chifney on and clip to find the vein. The disposal men had a gun (on my request) but we still needed the sedative so I asked the vet to keep going. I was put in contact with someone who could have brought him down in the field but 1) felt a bit barbaric and 2) getting him out of a muddy field in Jan was problematic

OP - although it feels horrible I genuinely think training my old boy in preparation for his last day (whatever you choose) was the best thing i could have done. It was very peaceful
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My last pts by the vet took over an hour and a half to die. She had blown veins due to a weekend of treatment for colic. She had elephant doses of sedative into her muscle and still stayed on her feet. The vet had to return to base over 8 miles away for some heart needles, he expected her to be down at least on his return but she was still swaying about. It was too dangerous to even stroke her as she could have fallen at any moment. When she did go down it was head between the legs and full somersault bringing her hind legs through a sheep net fence. It was not pretty, not pleasant and not to be repeated. Talking to the knackerman when he collected the body he gave me his number and said that he would even turn out in the middle of the night if needed.

Sorry OP I did not want to make your thread any worse for you than necessary.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I learned from having a dog pts at home that death is instaneous as far as the others are concerned. Our dogs sat back out of the way while elderly Lab was injected. When the vet stood up and they were allowed to approach the body, they barely looked before treating her like a rug to talk to the vet.
When we had the last Rottweiler pts in the back of the car during Covid, the 2 Labs came back to the car, looked at the body and jumped straight into the car. Then one of them jumped back out for a 2nd look, checked that she had seen what she thought she'd seen and got back in of her own accord. They certainly grieve but they don't need to spend much time with the body to do that.
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Eta (don't know why I can't just add this to my post) Prey animals, especially, won't want to hang around a friend's body, in case the predator is lurking nearby
 
IMO a quick, clean shot by an experienced fallen stockman (who also gets called out to deer injured on railway and sometimes RTA's if an Agister is dealing with another) is by far the kindest way for any horse to go. In terms of clean up and disposal of body he is also brilliant. Cost just £120 for everything last August. I hope it is a long time before I need him again, but yes he does work 24/7 if necessary.
 
canteron said:
Sorry to add an unpleasant question. Those of you who have chosen shooting, was cleaning up the blood an issue?

Also, when using injections I have always let the other horses see the dead body. Does the blood make this a traumatic thing for the other equines?

Again, thank you for sharing your valuable experiences in this unpleasant subject, I am the sort of person who really needs to be prepared in advance.
Click to expand...

I've had 2 shot, one by my vet (he's an older very expereinced vet) and one by the hunt. Both were as everyone has said, very calm, quick, and peaceful. One mare hated strangers,, and could get aggressive. At over 17hh could easily have made it hard for the huntsman, but she was calm and relaxed, with her head just at the right height. Although it wasn't an emergency PTS, it absoloutely confirmed I'd made the right decision.

In both cases, they were done on grass. There was some blood, but not loads. I let the others spend as much time with the body as they wanted, which was several hours. One young ex racer spent a lot of time licking the body, which was incredibly sad (he'd really bonded with her and it made me wonder about his foal-hood)

I was there to support when the pony I used to ride as a child was shot by the hunstman - that was calm and quick too.

I've also seen 3 injected. Never again. Even though one supposedly went well, I didn't like the expressions on the horse's face during the process. The other 2 were very unpleasant, one exceedingly so and ended up with the vet having to shoot anyway.
 
I have had all mine shot in the barn on a straw bedded corner. Most blood comes from down the nose. Once the body has been removed I collect the soiled straw and put it out on the muck heap, generally covered by fresh poo from poo picking. Yes there is often a smear left on the floor which can be hosed off or left. This has never bothered any of the others that come into the barn.
 
The knacker we use has a black plastic bag handy and as soon as the horse drops he puts that over the head to collect any blood. Never seen any mess at all after he has gone. Cost when we had our last two done back in 2017 was £240.
By contrast we had the hunt to put down my sister's little pony the day before our farm sale 32 years ago. He dropped him in a puddle, said it would help to get rid of the blood. It didn't, I was frantically trying to sweep it away with very little success ready for all the people who would be at the sale the next day. Shan't forget that in a hurry.
 
I had a filly who was needle shy and hated vets. When she needed her wolf teeth out the vet gave me dom gel to pre-sedate her as she wouldn’t have managed to get her sedated. In the end so was so out on it she only needed local. She didn’t even know the vet was there.

So if you wanted the vet that would be my route. Give her the gel in a calm environment then leave her to it for best effects! Otherwise I’d get the local fallen stock guys out.
 
Cost wise you’re probably looking at around £1000 including disposal for the vet. £2-300 for the fallen stock guy.

Vet is likely your only option in an extreme emergency so that tube of domosedan would be a very good thing to have.
 
canteron said:
Sorry to add an unpleasant question. Those of you who have chosen shooting, was cleaning up the blood an issue?

Also, when using injections I have always let the other horses see the dead body. Does the blood make this a traumatic thing for the other equines?

Again, thank you for sharing your valuable experiences in this unpleasant subject, I am the sort of person who really needs to be prepared in advance.
Click to expand...
My experience is that with shooting there can be some blood and other matter. Local fallen stock and hunt have immediately put shavings/sawdust down to soak that up and contain it. It congeals and dries quickly and can be cleaned up easily. But as @Errin Paddywack says - try not to involve water. Once the horse has been removed from the site there has been very little or nothing to see or clear. Usually the disposal person has taken the patch of shavings with them as they understand it can be distressing to owners to have to do that.

I have always put other horses out of sight of shooting but afterwards they have had chance to see the body and that hasn't appeared to cause distress. The shootings that we have had have been very calm, clean and done by experienced and compassionate people. It is immediate and, for me, far less distressing than the process of injecting. It is never easy sadly but good to be as prepared as possible and understand your preferences and the processes needed.
 
We've lost 4 in my lifetime, all done with the injection, very calm experiences and they passed really quickly. I don't like the thought of having them shot, but I'll never judge any owner for chosing this method. Kingshill were very good on collection, ashes were ready a few days later.
 
Mine isn't needle-shy, but she reacts really badly to sedation - she resists it to the extent that she becomes aggressive - and so when the time of her "end" comes then it would not be kind to have her PTS by injection.

In this area (SW) we have an excellent knackerman who has performed the service for us here with horses in the past; and if he is still around at the time it would be my intention to ask him to oblige.

With shooting, prior sedation is not required; and in fact is counter-advised, according to our man. With this method the horse genuinely has not got a clue what's coming, and it is immediate, the horse is dead literally before they hit the ground.
 
Mine was also needle shy but his vet was a wonderful young woman who had been treating him for years so knew his quirks.

She calmly cuddled him then when he relaxed popped in the sedative. Then gave him a bit whilst we were stuffing him full of food then once it was fully engaged the cannula went in and we walked him to his sleeping place. He got more forbidden foods and cuddled then the drugs went in. He went down and I cuddled him and he knew he was loved and that I promised to see him again and he took his last breath with my arms around him.

The vet was amazing.
 
I had a pony who could be very difficult with needles, more so when the person with the needle was also anxious about it.
He met his end in an emergency (it was colic). It was a vet he didn't know, so I would have expected trouble but he was so unwell I don't think he even registered her presence as he was thrashing about so much.
The vet was there, and had a euthanasia kit already in the car, and we were so fraught there just wasn't time to think, should I get the knackerman. We just said go ahead and she did. Not all vets have a firearms license so if your mare has an emergency you may not have much choice, especially when time is not on your side.
 
We used to have a vet with a firearms license. He was also a member of the local running club. I remember him chasing after a loose bull for several miles before being able to get a clean shot at it.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
We are fortunate to have an Equine Crematorium locally. The owner's father used to run the local abattoir before the regulations changed. She and her staff are brilliant with horses and they always go calmly with their heads in a bucket of feed.
Ime, the experience for the horse is better with a shot. It's quicker, there is very little prep needed that the horse is involved with and as a bonus, the body can be removed immediately. I've had 2 injected in emergencies and they both objected to the fluid going in.
I really think that, like OP, the owner must put the horse's needs first, rather than the feelings of bystanders when deciding how to pts.
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100% agree with this. I’ve done both and I have to honestly say I prefer the speed and lack of clinicalness with shooting.
No preparing needles and drugs. Just a chat to the horse lots of food and they are gone.
What happens to the body is still your choice.
 
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